Why the hell does the M249 have so much recoil even on single shot?

@imacookie said in Why the hell does the M249 have so much recoil even on single shot?:

I hope you guys realize that all light machine guns are equipped with AP rounds and can down a fully geared opponents in one shot. This along with the inherently high ROF will definitely make the gun unbalanced hence why there is such high recoil.

All LMGS have AP rounds, except you know, one of the two of them.

The PKM does not have AP rounds and theres only 2 LMGs. The M249 does not oneshot basically ever from my time using it even with AP rounds.

@imacookie said in Why the hell does the M249 have so much recoil even on single shot?:

I hope you guys realize that all light machine guns are equipped with AP rounds and can down a fully geared opponents in one shot. This along with the inherently high ROF will definitely make the gun unbalanced hence why there is such high recoil.

The M249 doesn't always kill with one round, played plenty with it to know. Where does it say it uses AP rounds? The AP meta has been removed from sandstorm afaik.

My personal wish would be to decrease recoil, increase ADS time (when not on bipod) and increase sway when not on bipod.

last edited by Feuerholz

@feuerholz the caliber is listed as "5.56x45mm AP."

What about to make recoil more reasonable and balance it with other things .. costs more points, has way slower ADS time, worse hipfire, sway after while with unsuported ADS, longer reload time .. just considering the 9kg weight

last edited by N4thani3l

The M249 is an open-bolt gun. When you pull the trigger, the entire bolt carrier group slams forward, strips a round off the belt, and fires it. Even dry firing that thing knocks you off target in freehand. It's a long range static position volume of fire weapon, not a precise one, certainly not a particularly agile one. Having harsh recoil is pretty realistic.

The recoil could stand to be a bit lower, though. It's too similar to the PKM, which is a GPMG, so that's pretty ridiculous.

@marksmanmax I don't get what ring of elysium has to do with this...of all the fps games why choose that one? Are you attempting to say “hey this game has got it together guys, go here cuz they happen to reduce their recoil?!” LoL
Its just a bit odd....to say the VERY least...theres a dozen fps games out there working in balance....but you bring up that one out of the blue huh? Did you need something in black and white to back your topic and didnt care how it was presented or why?

People screaming for m249 recoil reduction want to rambo with the saw guarantee it will happen. NWI PLEASE DONT!

last edited by Max80

@ziggylata its not unusable I play with it often as a quick pick up to avoid reloading and it fires just fine. Ive never been killed using it unless I was out flanked and alone against a high bot count server. Too much exaggeration on this topic.

last edited by Max80

@imacookie finally someone with a brain speaks with me on the matter! Ty cookie....good to see you here!

last edited by Max80

@n4thani3l every gun hipfires the same. How would you make its hipfire "worse"?

@cyoce I dont thinkg every gun should hipfire the same ... just adding feeling of weight and doing the hight recoil in hipfire instead of ADS .. Im sure there are mechanisms out there commonly used ..

@imacookie said in Why the hell does the M249 have so much recoil even on single shot?:

I hope you guys realize that all light machine guns are equipped with AP rounds and can down a fully geared opponents in one shot. This along with the inherently high ROF will definitely make the gun unbalanced hence why there is such high recoil.

That's not necessarily true.
The 5.56 has poor stopping power if the velocity isn't very high to cause the bullet to fragment upon impact. That's why it was originally designed to be fired out of a 20 inch barrel. Which is why it has been performing so poorly in Afghanistan out of short barreled M4s with long range engagement distances.

Although the M249 has an 18 inch barrel which means it should actually be doing more damage than an M4 and not suffer a lot of the sharp drop off in effective range. It would, however, be the exact same damage as an M16 with that length of barrel.

AP rounds also aren't standard, and even if they were used they have poor performance against flesh as the trade off for their ability to go through armor. So the chances of bringing them down in one hit are probably decreased when armor isn't a factor.

Even if we assume the best circumstances, the truth is the 5.56 has never gotten good reports about it's stopping power. So it's not unreasonable from a realism standpoint to presume the 5.56 isn't always a one shot drop unless you hit a vital area that results in instant incapacitation.

@iamnotapro870

Unfortunately I am unable to test what the guns perform like in Sandstorm as I had to refund it due to it being unplayable on my PC. However, I am interested in discussing the realism of the game because I'd like to be able to play it at some point.

However, I would be very disappointed if they took a step back from realism and would probably be glad I refunded it if they started incorporating arbitrary COD arcade balance into the weapons. I always saw Insurgency as an appealing game because of it's uncompromising attempt at simulating real weapons handling and performance. Without that, there's no reason really to choose playing it over other similar games.

I just went into classic Insurgency and tested the vanilla M16 and M249 with 4x optics firing from the crouched position and prone position.

Conclusion? It's a pretty reasonable representation of the two. It might not be perfect, but there's not a lot to obviously complain about. Any complaints would be very minor and nuanced.

With both fired normally through the optics the M249 has a noticeably bigger pattern of dispersion when used in semi-automatic.
Now, there could be two reasons for this.

  1. It could be a representation of aimsway. There is significantly more aimsway on the M249 than the M16. So maybe what's happening is that you aren't timing your shot at the right point in the aimsway, which throws the shot off a bit. This would be an acceptable mechanic as long as you had the ability to aim true by timing you shot intuitively with the sway. However, if it's just a flat automatic dispersion regardless of your timing, then that is a bad model because it takes control out of the hands and skill of the player.

Is this kind of aimsway realistic? I don't know enough about the M249's handling to be able to comment. There may be reason to believe that the extra mass of a heavier weapon might actually make it sway less, especially if it's balanced properly to not be too front heavy. The only downside of a heavy weapon is that you get tired holding it up, and then maybe over time your aimsway increases due to tiredness rather than the difficulty inherent in holding a heavier weapon steady.
So, in that sense, it may not even be properly realistic for the M249 to be suffering from greater aimsway problems than the M16. Something to consider. But more research or testing of different weapon sizes at a range is needed to determine if that is the case.

  1. It could be the inherent inaccuracy of the M249 being represented.
    Do we have reason to believe the M249 could be inherently less accurate than the M16? Absolutely.

First off, the reason the M249 is being replaced by the M27 in the marines is precisely because the M249 isn't accurate enough at long range to do it's job. It doesn't suppress the enemy because they know it's not accurate enough that long range. The M27 lets them have the accuracy of a rifle but, due to it's design, it's tough enough to handle sustained automatic fire and not break (which the M16 or M4 can't do).

Why is the M249 less accurate?
For one, it fires from an open bolt in order to help with heat dissipation, as opposed to the closed bolt of the M16. An open bolt is always inherently less accurate because of how it moves the gun and therefore effects your aim before the bullet leaves the chamber.
There could also be other nuances about the engineering differences between the gun which make the M249 mechanically less accurate despite the M249 having the same barrel length, the same cartridge, and even having the advantage of a heavier barrel (so you get less distortion of the barrel from the shockwave of the round going off).

It's also possible for the M249 barrel to simply have bad harmonics. Barrels reasonate with the explosive force of each round fired, and that reasonating of the barrel will impact accuracy. This is why precision rifle shooters will add donut weights onto the barrel of their gun and adjust it up or down along the length until they see an improvement in their accuracy. By adding weight at just the right place you establish harmony with the way the barrel reasonates so it stops throwing the bullet off target. I cannot say whether this is the case with the M249, but point this out only to say that there can be a lot going on behind why a gun is less accurate that goes beyond just barrel length and weight.

However, there's something confusing that happens in Insurgency with the M249. When you press shift to focus your aim, the M249 actually will fire tighter groups than the M16 (even from crouching, not just from prone. Prone makes them appear almost the same). Either this must be an oversight of the design, a bug, or the developers are under the impression that the M249 is inherently more accurate than the M16 when aimsway is no longer a problem. Maybe because they think it's a heavier barrel? But we have no reason to believe the M249 should be more accurate than the M16 given what we know about it's combat performance and it's engineering design.

@gm29 yep soldiers using M249 were saying they need to put multiple rounds into enemy to stop them cause those fast small fast AP bullets just pass through the body. Sometimes it was hard to tell if they hit with first few.

@gm29 - cookie was referring to in-game mechanics involving ammo and machine guns. Cookie was not trying to spiral down a rabbit hole of endless regression involving players and their need for "in real life.." weapon debates lol.
But hey if that's your things great go for it. But all weapons in the game have armor piercing rounds.

last edited by Max80

@n4thani3l How should they hipfire differently?

@cyoce spread, 1st shoot recoil, speed of gun movement, etc .. you have weapons with different weight, length, centre of gravity, design .. that all effects unsuported gun (unsupported by shoulder) ... even now guns behave differently when hipfireing ..

@max80 said in Why the hell does the M249 have so much recoil even on single shot?:

@gm29 - cookie was referring to in-game mechanics involving ammo and machine guns. Cookie was not trying to spiral down a rabbit hole of endless regression involving players and their need for "in real life.." weapon debates lol.
But hey if that's your things great go for it. But all weapons in the game have armor piercing rounds.

Nothing you said makes any sense.

Real life ballistics and weapons handling are the basis for how they model weapons in Insurgency. That is the starting point you need to have if you want to talk about what should or should not be happening in Insurgency.

@n4thani3l Hipfire doesn't have any spread in this game. And changing how free-aim behaves between different guns would make the game feel horrible.