Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM)

@imptastic Dark Crusade is hardly grand strategy. Total War is, but as I said, we'll have to wait and see if this game manages to approach Total War levels of customization, and map control/manipulation, and resources (I seriously doubt we'll see a substantive diplomacy system, which is already a hit against this game being GS). I never thought anyone suggested it could be a 4x, I just felt it was necessary to make the point that it won't be, to emphasise that it's scale is unlikely to be so huge that it would automatically discount a smaller scale being used for smaller factions or stories.

The Necrons going on a major unified campaign would be pretty lore-breaking. Even if there's a huge civil war element to represent the fact the various dynasties don't get along, Necrons, as the race that has one of the smallest presences in 40K in terms of conquering or otherwise owning territory, other than the Drukkari (who don't do that usually), and the Tau (who are in a tiny corner) making huge territory gains is already lore-breaking. Obviously the Tyranids consuming huge chunks of galaxy is pretty lore-breaking too (they usually make decent inroads, against fairly undefended systems, but only once have approached major lore-changing status, when they went after Macragge, which just functioned as an excuse for the ultra-smurfs to show off). You said it yourself, these are 'what if' scenarios, and there's no reason to claim that one 'what if' is too lore breaking, when another is just as discordant with the status quo. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if this WAS a driving reason knowing GW, and it's basically the one thing I doubt any company would admit.

@adm_janus said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

@underdarklord nice analysis 🙂

I think the game will be a bit of an hybrid. While we have a lot of the classic rts staples, there are no base building, resource harvesting or tech trees making it more of a tactical game during the battles.

The campaigns open up a lot of possibilities and we will have to wait and see but my guess is that we are going to get a bunch of scripted missions that drive the story forward plus a host of optional missions with the purpose of expanding you dominion/fleet.

So not truly a starcraft style campaign nor a true 4x.

That's cool with me though.

This is the exact kind of campaign I expect, and have expected. Doing two villain races, for this style of campaign, but not the main one involved in the story element in progress, is what baffled me in the first place. The Imperium/Chaos divide is the main plot, why not let players choose their side? Instead if they want to go villain, they're forced to pick between two very specific styles of fleet, neither of whom are motivated by the main plot, but rather their goals conflict with those goals.

I think the main reason for not having a chaos campaign might be that they already are the "enemy" faction that provides the backdrop against which the 3 playable campaigns unfold.

Making a mirror like interlocking campaign which also includes player agency seems really hard to pull off.

But that's just my view.

baals ecosystem was tyranid based before humans ever landed on it
ultramar has nid lifeforms all over the sector
nids dont eat everything, they might seem so but to think that means you see claims from the imperiums perspective as fact
they are not
humans are fallible
nids arnt mindless
they are farming orks right now

and there is more to life then emotion
emotion is just misfiring chemicals, there is nothing admirable in that
nids have a goal, a real goal, not some silly mortal whim or a fad

Tyranids embody the "alien" feeling more than any other race, which ultimately can be reconnected to human ideals or emotions (eldar are hedonistic, orks warlike and brutish, necrons aloof and detached, tau hyper-social and so on..).

Unlike the 'nids, which are some kind of seemingly superior form of extra galactic biology no one can explain or understand. They are pretty cool.

On the other side underlord has a point when he says that building an involving story when there are no characters to carry it is hard.

last edited by Adm_Janus

but the hive is the character
instead of having to empathize with a random tiny little dude somewhere on your ship that you will only see in cutscenes
its your fleets themselves that are the character
their need, their hunger, their desperation, their hunger, their curiosity, their hunger, their hunger
its not the hunger of the norn queen on one of your ships, it is the hunger of your entire fleet
you just need to abandon the attempt of trying to attach a human perspective to them and just empathize with the hive
not the gaunts in the hive, that would be like trying to empathize with your top left backmost molar, it makes no sense

last edited by Ashardalon

@underdarklord dark crusade is not the greatest example of grand strategy but its still fits the discription it is a rather broad genre. As for your lore you forget that all the necrontyr did ally together to fight the old ones and when the c'tan convinced them to go into the machine bodies they took away most of their free will only a few maintained most of their personalities so getting them to band together would only take a few, ill be it politically opposed, characters to band together. The massive expansion of the warp would be a suffecient catalyst just like the old ones were. As for the necs footprint if they awaken from the tomb worlds they would have plenty of troops to launch a massive conquest and with their tech they would do it quickly also add in the fact that their forces do no face the same level of diminishing returns that other forces do. For someone that seems to like throwing out the word lore breaking you seem to forget a lot of lore. As for the tyranids in lore most of the tyranid forces have yet to make it to the milky way all thats been in countered is the "scouting" tendrils i use quotes because its not the best word to discribe them but it someone conveys that they are just the first ones to make it. as i am sure you know the tyranids were attracted to the milky way when the pharos was overloaded. And their is evidence to suggest that they may have bio ships seeded throughout the imperium when they found the bio ship under Nusquam Fundumentibus.

I will say, considering the storyline, I was pretty damn surprised they picked Tyranids (A footnote in the conflict) rather than Chaos (The second most important faction in the conflict).

Now, that said, I'm actually happy that the Tyranids are getting a campaign, because at least they're different. Though it is weird that from a singleplayer's perspective, Chaos - the entity that causes the entire conflict - has no use. There's no campaign. No skirmish progression. No ship progression. They're irrelevant in terms of gameplay.

chaos campaign would have to be reverse progression
start with full fleets and everything and then endure for as long as possible
if it would need to build up like good campaigns do it wouldnt feel like a black crusade
chaos isnt bringing dark mechanicus forgeworldships with them to build and recover
so has some weird difficulty's if your trying to make a campaign for them have a good progression feeling

@imptastic said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

@underdarklord dark crusade is not the greatest example of grand strategy but its still fits the discription it is a rather broad genre. As for your lore you forget that all the necrontyr did ally together to fight the old ones and when the c'tan convinced them to go into the machine bodies they took away most of their free will only a few maintained most of their personalities so getting them to band together would only take a few, ill be it politically opposed, characters to band together. The massive expansion of the warp would be a suffecient catalyst just like the old ones were. As for the necs footprint if they awaken from the tomb worlds they would have plenty of troops to launch a massive conquest and with their tech they would do it quickly also add in the fact that their forces do no face the same level of diminishing returns that other forces do. For someone that seems to like throwing out the word lore breaking you seem to forget a lot of lore. As for the tyranids in lore most of the tyranid forces have yet to make it to the milky way all thats been in countered is the "scouting" tendrils i use quotes because its not the best word to discribe them but it someone conveys that they are just the first ones to make it. as i am sure you know the tyranids were attracted to the milky way when the pharos was overloaded. And their is evidence to suggest that they may have bio ships seeded throughout the imperium when they found the bio ship under Nusquam Fundumentibus.

I didn't forget everything. I was using your own argument, the current state of the lore indicating a certain status quo that GW would want to maintain, and not unsettle: currently the Necrontyr are not some monolithic effective entity, and have a lot of contradictory ideas about how to proceed, between dynasties, and that's important. I agree that the current events would probably see some unification, if not complete unification over time, but that's not the current state. Ditto the Tyranids being a greater threat in the future, that's totally true, but it's not the current state. One of your arguments against my points that an Ynnari campaign would be good from a gameplay and story perspective, and that a Tau campaign is feasible, and has many of the same advantages, was, to paraphrase "the current state of the lore doesn't allow it", but now you're coming back against my point that the lore is similarly modified if you want to make Tyranids or Necrons CURRENT galaxy conquering opponents, and I'm baffled at the turnabout.

As to throwing around the term "lore breaking", I didn't do that a lot, and I did it in reference to your own argument that certain things in the lore wouldn't reflect certain types of campaigns (as mentioned above): I could care less about what makes/breaks the 40K lore (I was unwilling to wait more than a decade for the 13th Black Crusade to have real consequences, I played in that global campaign). My point is that you seemed to care, when it was other factions whose campaign implementation in this game might differ, but only those factions it seems.

@ashardalon said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

baals ecosystem was tyranid based before humans ever landed on it
ultramar has nid lifeforms all over the sector
nids dont eat everything, they might seem so but to think that means you see claims from the imperiums perspective as fact
they are not
humans are fallible
nids arnt mindless
they are farming orks right now

and there is more to life then emotion
emotion is just misfiring chemicals, there is nothing admirable in that
nids have a goal, a real goal, not some silly mortal whim or a fad

Of course there's more to life than emotion, and more importantly, there's more to decision-making, but that's the point: humans have to balance empathy, and accomplishing the military objective; humans have to overcome emotion to make logical decisions, and then they may screw it up. The struggle to do what is best, which yes, actually often IS based on emotion (even when the emotion isn't the best reason, or sole drive), is the struggle that humans have to suffer. A perfectly rational, single objective, single mind species isn't mindless, and doesn't struggle with that kind of decision-making, but it ACTS in such a way that if you have the same information as it does, a computer could make the exact same decisions, because it is based on a specific drive, and all available information. That is cool, and it's scary, but it also lacks every element of every story you've ever read. Even the un-emotionless among humans are constantly afflicted by the consequences of a society that doesn't operate on the same drives, and any story about them is affected by it.

There is a reason that characters who are written with a single drive, and who don't have complexity (due to relationships, conflicted emotions, social constraints) are called 'flat'. I'm not going to get into a huge literary analysis argument, but suffice to say, while 'flat' characters are not bad, they don't make good protagonists, because their simplicity does not reflect reality, and they have less of a connection to us as complex people. The Tyranids are 'flat', and are so no matter their unknown internal motive (because what they DO is destroy all other life, and don't communicate), and no, a planet having a Tyranid ecosystem doesn't somehow stop this from being true, neither do instances of them 'farming' Orks: how is this not them destroying other life, to perpetuate themselves (survive), and an indication of a strategy based on the unique biology of Orks (hence they've 'evolved')? It is their very nature, as alien, as uncommunicative, that makes them this way, and they would have to change in order for these facts to change. I wouldn't want the Tyranids any other way, would you?

@ashardalon said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

chaos campaign would have to be reverse progression
start with full fleets and everything and then endure for as long as possible
if it would need to build up like good campaigns do it wouldnt feel like a black crusade
chaos isnt bringing dark mechanicus forgeworldships with them to build and recover
so has some weird difficulty's if your trying to make a campaign for them have a good progression feeling

Why would it have to be like this? What stops them from conquering planets, recruiting Ad-Mech, and bringing Dark Mechanicus ships with them? The lore/plot of the status quo? First, that would be pretty dumb of them. Second, conquering territory is something Chaos does pretty well (may I refer you to the Sabbat Worlds Crusade). Third, any lore that needs handwaving to make a Chaos incursion grow, is needed to make a galaxy-conquering Tyranid threat grow as well (interestingly, this is NOT true if you simply reduce the scale of the conflict, where EoT Chaos may still act the same on a smaller scale, while Tyranids conquering/consuming in a localized section of galaxy would make sense and fit current story restrictions).

@underdarklord the nids are absolutly set up to conquer as conquest as per their method increases their numbers exponentially, as for the necs having all the tomb worlds awaken is already a great fear amongst the powers that know more than a small fraction of what they are its already set up for them to go from 0 to 60 in month. The ynnari however have to birth a god before they would unify and start conquest so that is a stretch and tau are far to small to systematically amass enough forces to hold and control significant portions of the galaxy and while not to the same degree the eldar have the same problem as they are a relatively small force in the galaxy after the birth of slanessh. To say that necs, imps, and nids are the best positioned to conquer the galaxy would be true except i would contend that chaos is just as well positioned which is y i said they would probably be the first campaign dlc to be released if we got one.

side the main reason the ynnari route is a problem is because i dont think gw has decided weather or not ynnead is going to be corrupted or not or just how much effect he will have on slanesh. letting these guys dictate that puts GW in a position that if they try to go the other way they may face a larger backlash than they already do when they commit to a plot line.

last edited by imptastic

your forgetting splinter fleets and nid fleets growing as they consume planets
and no not all hives would act the same as they all have their own way to deal with thinks, thats why they compete when they meet
its to see whos idea is best
the one that eats the other was right but still gets the information eaten

also, karsa orlong, great character, single minded and driven once he leaves his plateau
just because you wouldnt write them doesnt mean they are boring
and nids are far from boring even if you lack the ability to empathize with anything even remotely removed from human

you would applaud the characters in horror movies that run away from a train instead of just stepping to the side because "such emotion" while for me its just retardation that doesnt add anything to the story, those characters could have been left out and nothing would have been different except for some whiny background noises

but thats just different people preferring different characters
and im happy there are retarded humans for you to play and empathize with
now let me have a good and interesting faction to play in a campaign for once
because its not like every 40k game ever has had eldar every single time

last edited by Ashardalon

@imptastic said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

@underdarklord the nids are absolutly set up to conquer as conquest as per their method increases their numbers exponentially, as for the necs having all the tomb worlds awaken is already a great fear amongst the powers that know more than a small fraction of what they are its already set up for them to go from 0 to 60 in month. The ynnari however have to birth a god before they would unify and start conquest so that is a stretch and tau are far to small to systematically amass enough forces to hold and control significant portions of the galaxy and while not to the same degree the eldar have the same problem as they are a relatively small force in the galaxy after the birth of slanessh. To say that necs, imps, and nids are the best positioned to conquer the galaxy would be true except i would contend that chaos is just as well positioned which is y i said they would probably be the first campaign dlc to be released if we got one.

side the main reason the ynnari route is a problem is because i dont think gw has decided weather or not ynnead is going to be corrupted or not or just how much effect he will have on slanesh. letting these guys dictate that puts GW in a position that if they try to go the other way they may face a larger backlash than they already do when they commit to a plot line.

The Tyranids increase exponentially... when they succeed and are never stopped. My point is that this hasn't happened. Necrons would be awful both awake and cooperating (or just awake and not getting in each other's way), which they are not. I have no problem with a campaign for either, I just don't get why you want to argue that the limitations built into the other races are somehow unavoidable, and inevitable, while the ones for these two are not.

There's also no need to decide if Ynnead is corrupt(able) or not for a campaign. Just don't take it to a point where that would matter. I refer you inevitably again to the fact there's no need for any campaign to encompass the entire galaxy, or involve complete conquest, or even progress the story on that kind of scale, just because the current campaigns seem to have chosen to go that route. That said, I've already agreed that GW interference would be an unsurprising reason for the Ynnari to not get a campaign.

@ashardalon said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

your forgetting splinter fleets and nid fleets growing as they consume planets
and no not all hives would act the same as they all have their own way to deal with thinks, thats why they compete when they meet
its to see whos idea is best
the one that eats the other was right but still gets the information eaten

also, karsa orlong, great character, single minded and driven once he leaves his plateau
just because you wouldnt write them doesnt mean they are boring
and nids are far from boring even if you lack the ability to empathize with anything even remotely removed from human

you would applaud the characters in horror movies that run away from a train instead of just stepping to the side because "such emotion" while for me its just retardation that doesnt add anything to the story, those characters could have been left out and nothing would have been different except for some whiny background noises

but thats just different people preferring different characters
and im happy there are retarded humans for you to play and empathize with
now let me have a good and interesting faction to play in a campaign for once
because its not like every 40k game ever has had eldar every single time

I'm not forgetting anything. They do grow. They also get wiped out. Both things have happened. I didn't say all hives act the same, I said that the Tyranids, which are governed by a singular hive mind, are tackling a single problem. The reason hives differ, is because they have contradictory/competing information to the others, which competition between hives resolves for the Hive Mind, instead of having to be a philosopher.

My point isn't that I wouldn't write them, I would, particularly in a survival story, or a horror story. My point is that their nature as uncommunicative, singular, unknown beings makes them unable to be protagonists.

Of course I don't applaud characters who run directly away from a threat operating on some kind of linear track/route, when a simple move to the side would save them, don't be absurd. I DO however understand that those characters are trapped in a despair/fear loop that may be impacting their thinking, so as long as their deaths are fast enough, or some other factor mitigates the dumbness (the characters have become excessively afraid over time, have shown other illogical/stupid thought patterns due to emotion, etc...), I can at least accept the basis of their dumbness. How did you go from my 'emotion is a source of empathy, conflict, and character complexity', to 'all emotional actions are praise-worthy'? The point is that it often is not.

You can have an interesting, consuming, xenophobic, survival-of-the-fittest species, without it being as flat as the Tyranids. The Cravers from Endless Space are like this. But because of emotion, their own society's blindness, and prejudice, and the like, the Cravers are better equipped to be protagonists (at least to the extent that a 4x game can have one, even in ES2, which has a quest/plot line), than the Tyranids. The Hive Mind, the complete alien/outsider status, and more, are features that inescapably make them opaque to understanding.

I'm neither letting you, or not letting you, have a faction (interesting or otherwise). I'm pointing out that from a storytelling perspective, the Tyranids are a poor choice, that this is part of their nature, and that no amount of cool mechanics, unique fleet composition, or other things, can erase that. Then there's the unfortunate fact that the Eldar/Dark Eldar, and Tau, because of plot elements that allow their fleets to work together, had more potential in the mechanical show-off, fleet dynamic standpoint, while having the advantage from a storytelling perspective: my premise was, is it not odd that with all of that going for them, TWO flatter, less mechanically varied, races, one of whom is more equipped from a storytelling perspective than the other, got campaigns (out of three total)? Instead of having an argument against the strangeness, your claims are basically that Tyranids should get attention too, and their weaknesses as a story focus shouldn't matter. They should matter, they just didn't. That said, if you'd be willing to accept my view of your positions as basically "It is a little odd, but I don't care, because it's different enough, and I like the Tyranids in particular", then that's fine. Being strange as a decision doesn't mean it hasn't been made after all. Tyranids kind of do deserve the spotlight in games some more, but a story-driven environment (or at least story-driven for other factions) isn't the best for that. A game made with them in mind from the ground up, where you could control a single Hive faction. It would be heavily decision based, on targets, on evolutions, on strategy (undermine with cults more, focus on assaults more? Target lots of population/biomass, or start with less well-defended targets first?); a game where the strategy options are staggering, and the story can be weak to non-existent. They'd be ideal as a faction in a true 40K turn-based, strategic scale, 4x game.

As to Karsa. Karsa grows substantially as a character over time. Karsa sees humans as beneath contempt at first, but grows in that regard. He develops relationships, and experiences further loss outside his homeland. He becomes cunning in dealing with others, something that he is definitely not at first (doesn't see the need mainly, he's certainly capable). All of that is held together by the effective skeleton of his unwillingness to be a tool, and innate rebelliousness (ironically that trait is what draws some people to use him, which doesn't tend to work out for them). He is not an unknowable force that despises all others, and is set up as having the power to ignore them, including having no relationships. His ambition/drive allows for complex relationships, and interactions (such as the aforementioned people using him). 'Nids are not this.

@underdarklord you originally argued for the eldar factions to form up as a campaign faction when i doubted that because of their natural relations you brought up the ynnari, and my point is that for the ynnari to get the factions to form up enough for a true void war game they would need to unite the eldar factions in a way they cannot do unless they fulfill their goal of awakening ynnead. That said i did agree that a limited campaign would be fun but stated that it was highly unlikely because of GW and their reasons. The tau would fit your limited war idea MUCH better as the ynnari as their current incarnation would be much more suited to a DoW platform type of game then this game.

again you claim nids are blind
because for you they are just antagonist and only protagonists have depth
its because people like you that the space marine books where written
the worst 40k novels in existance
a antagonist needs as much if not more depth as a protagonist and nids have that if you can just step outside of your obsession with humans for a moment, or spiky humans or pointy eared humans or blue humans
the fact you cant even see the beauty of orks and call them flat just emphasizes the point

and im just pointing out that you are so far up your ass with your "writing philosophy" that you cant see how shallow your stories would be
if your antagonists dont have more depth then your protagonist they are just a challenge to overcome, no more interesting then a hill to walk over
nids arnt weak as a story focus, games are the ideal way to write their story
but even in game form you wont be able to empathize with them and will continue to see them as the simple animals you have built them up as in your mind instead of the beautifully complex creatures they are
wich will keep every story shallow and boring in your mind just like every story you will ever create yourself because you see antagonist as nothing more then an obstacle instead of a character more important then the protagonist
people like you are why ultramarines are hated

and no kara has a goal and he goes for it, he did so from the day he saw his weakened countrymen
you just humanized him in your mind because of his human shape and you cant see a person as anything else then humans
dont give your limitations to a better man
nids grow too, look at the doom of malantai, no different from karsa learning to twist words
and lots of people have seen the nids as simple animals, like you do, and tried to use them, they suffered as much as the ones trying to use karsa
but you just see a large human and cant compare him with something that looks like bugs
the limitation is in you, not in nids

@ashardalon said in Full campaign Beta XXX to the 14th. Sign up here. (Copied from STEAM):

chaos campaign would have to be reverse progression
start with full fleets and everything and then endure for as long as possible
if it would need to build up like good campaigns do it wouldnt feel like a black crusade
chaos isnt bringing dark mechanicus forgeworldships with them to build and recover
so has some weird difficulty's if your trying to make a campaign for them have a good progression feeling

Not really. Instead of making you Grand Marshal, you could start as a simple Admiral, who only has control of their little force. As the war wears on, and your peers die in battle, you inherit their forces and develop your own. The Dark Mechanicus would almost assuredly be able to improve/fix things as they took over enemy stations and the Immaterium spreads out.

@ashardalon spoken like a true genestealer cultist. lol

Gotta totally agree with @Ashardalon here. 40k is not just the Imperium, despite what many people (not necessarily here) seem to think. They're not even the protagonists; there are no protagonists in 40k. They tend to be referenced the most because they are the humans and we tend to pay attention to those first, but that doesn't mean there is not a LOT of depth in ALL other factions. I am of the firm opinion that 40k is made what it is by the sum of its many factions and subfactions, and removing and ignoring or trivializing just a single one of them would be in detriment of the beautiful complexity of this whole fictional universe.

About the campaigns, I'm glad they went with something different. We finally have a campaign that integrates the Imperium factions as the single entity with a single goal (the Imperium and its survival), which is greatly in accord with the lore. And then we have campaigns for Xenos factions that usually don't get them: the Necrons and the Tyranids. It is just not possible to have narrative campaigns for all 40k factions from release, so they had to make a choice. No matter who they chose, someone would be bummed their favorite factions did not get one, but that was bound to happen; they should be glad fans of other factions that don't usually get campaigns got them this time. I'm all for additional campaigns to be added in the future though: the basis for that is there now, it just needs funds and time.

Youtube Video

I am sure we all saw this but just for completeness 🙂

I am impressed by the scope of the campaign!

I think, from what I saw, that the campaigns will roughly be like what we found the campaigns to be in DOW1 Soul Storm but then more fleshed out. You have specific regions (Or in this case, planets) that offer bonuses or abilities and so the more that is conquered, the more you can grow your fleet.

That's what it looks like to me, but I am really looking forward to how it's all implemented and how the progression will work. It has to be hard to find some kind of point where the campaign isn't too hard, or too easy if certain choices or negative/positive streaks happen.

I am so curious to see how it will go.