2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll

@dode74 said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

You're right, there is no perfect number: you can't please all the people all the time. And you argue for going for the "most popular one" when "most popular one" is how it was set in the first place and that's apparently not right! What's to suggest "most popular one" will be right this time?

To be fair Dode, as you have said before, people decided 3 minutes was the right time in blood bowl 1 when the 15 second timers and all of that wasn't in the game. So to some extent that decision is maybe not obsolete but it certainly needs to be revisited and it isn't just a 1 to 1 comparison.

While I agree, the point stands: "most popular" in this sort of poll is not necessarily the right answer.

@tryphikik said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

Voodoo Mike with the most pointless circular argument anyone can make which is the "why not 1 minute or 30 seconds" strawman which then always is countered with the well why not 4 minutes or 5 minutes or no time limit.

It's not circular, nor is it a straw man... it's ad absurdum. You're advocating an arbitrary turn limit in place of another arbitrary turn limit... so what makes your arbitrary value better than any other arbitrary value? If shorter is more competitive, then why is shorter-still not even more competitive? Supposedly "more competitive" is better, since it was one of the points being made by the pro-2m crowd, right?

@tryphikik said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

Obviously without even needing to say it to anyone who has basic common sense...

...and there it is: it always comes down to a hand-waving "right thinking people agree with me" sort of schtick. The simple fact is this: all the arguments you make in favour of 2m can be countered using the same arguments, because there's no objective evidence or logic supporting it over what's already in place. The only data we've got suggests it won't do any of what is being claimed.

@tryphikik said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

As for the "nothing at all" data in favor of the change there is plenty of data showing that max times do go down and you cannot play CCL without accounting for max times.

Heh, riddle me this: what percentage of games in CCL last longer than the maximum length of matches possible under 2 minute turns? It must be mighty high for us to care about maximum match time rather than focusing on median match duration.

@dode74 said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

@VoodooMike - if you could go into more detail regarding such a system then please do. I suspect the admin team is all for more automation (certainly they were when I was involved), but things like ensuring it's not abused and ensuring correct identification of AFKers are important. Very happy to discuss it, of course.

Probably a better topic for a separate thread, really. In short, you set up a web-based reporting system that lets people flag matches they played in the last <x> hours as being instances where their opponent engaged in <whatever> form of abuse. If someone is engaging in ongoing misbehaviour, they'll demonstrate it in multiple, separate instances... if they are isolated incidents then there's no real reason to take action. The system tallies the reports of a given sort filed against a given coach, possibly weighting them based on frequency with which the reporter flags matches (the more they do it, the less weight their reports should have... some folks just rage-report) and once it surpasses a certain threshold, they get tossed out of the season automagically (or it gets kicked up to a human to decide, if you're not feeling brave).

So, the short of it is... you don't trust one person to tell the truth, you trust that collectively people will arrive at the truth.

@dode74 said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

While I agree, the point stands: "most popular" in this sort of poll is not necessarily the right answer.

Not necessarily no, but 'least popular' is almost certainly not the right answer.

As Tryp has said, there have been changes to the game, seems fair to ask the players what they'd like. A poll seems a reasonable way, the poll says more people who voted, who are the only ones we therefore have any data for, prefer 2 minute turns.

If it had said the opposite I would have disagreed but been resigned to it. I get to keep playing while always dreading spinning into certain players, wouldn't stop me playing BB, it'sjust oneof the suckiest aspects of it for me.

"A" poll might be reasonable, but this one is pretty poor for reasons stated earlier.

Still, it says what it says and the result will inform the admins as to their course of action.

@dode74 If this change is intended to reduce the wasted time with AFK opponents, why not just increase concede limit, or even remove it completely? After all, no person would go AFK if they could simply concede.

If you want to be able to concede with no comeback there is COL available.

That said, I don't think the purpose has that intention at all.

People in favour of 2 minute turns reference the longest duration games.

The longest duration games generally aren’t going to be players who are slow to take their turns. They’re going to be high scoring games which have additional setup phases because a lot of TDs are scored. At least that’s been my experience across the various leagues I’ve played/watched.

The other long duration matches were matches that were constantly interrupted by “waiting for opponent” or disconnections.

Also if couse, 4 minute turns with 2 equally slow players. But even slow players on 3 minute turns rarely increased the total game duration by much, and if so then both players are contributing to the long duration, so no one wanting 2min turns would likely be affected much by it.

Fast games were with kill teams that dominated their opponent, as turns tend to go a lot faster when your opponent soft concedes, concedes or simply only has 3-4 players to move.

2 minute turns might mean that you could more confidently sneak a game of BB2 into your lunch hour. But would also make a decent percentage of players quit CCL.

Less players mean higher TV differences between teams, which then results in more players quitting because they’re getting stomped. 2 minute turns would be the start of a Skaven death spiral for CCL.

Do you really want that?

CCL is good with 3 minute turns, do you want to risk such a major change like 2 min turns which could ruin it? Tweaking things is great, but changing to 2 minute turns is huge. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

last edited by PapaNasty

The true test is giving it a go for 2 seasons and checking if the players pool increases or decreases.

My opinion is 3 mins are what I need to play a team that starts the turn choosing the best with 8/9 action (UW)

@artemis-black said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

Not necessarily no, but 'least popular' is almost certainly not the right answer.

This begs the validity of the poll itself. If you need to understand by self-selection renders polling unreliable, consider those comment cards you sometimes see at restaurants (especially fast food places). What proportion of responses from customers do you think are favourable/unfavourable? Overwhelmingly the returned cards say the food was terrible, the service was borderline criminal, and so on... because satisfied people tend to eat their food and get on with their lives, it's dissatisfied people who look for a way to voice their dissatisfaction.

This is doubly true when one or more people are trying to mobilize votes in one direction or the other.

@artemis-black said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

A poll seems a reasonable way, the poll says more people who voted, who are the only ones we therefore have any data for, prefer 2 minute turns.

A properly implemented poll might be a reasonable way, but a haphazardly implemented poll is just a way to lie with numbers.

@chus said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

The true test is giving it a go for 2 seasons and checking if the players pool increases or decreases.

There's no reason to assume that any change would make the player pool increase... I don't see many people claiming that people are quitting because the turn limits are a minute too long. People who want to play within 2 minutes each turn can already choose to do so. There's already a way to report AFKing, so that's hardly a reason to shorten turns.

I just haven't seen any real explanation for why it would be "better". Things seem pretty competitive already, and in the semi-final and final matches that get broadcast the coaches tend to take more than 2 minutes for their important turns (well, from the matches I watched).

Then again, the CCL show-runners are no loner data-driven.. so it's all back to running things by gut. I'm sure that'll pan out for everyone.

The reason for the 2 minute clock are as follows:

  • To be consistent with the other platforms
  • More competition. Tryphikik elaborated on the why in his post better than I did.

As for people who stated that a change would result in not playing in the CCL. If we do decide to trial 2 minutes, I say try it, how much does it hurt to try a few games?

Hey everyone, it has been awhile since I've played BB2 consistently and I mostly play on xbone with some dabbling in PC. I was a big supporter of 2 minute turns on console, but it is hard to say how many people were driven away due to that. I have no knowledge of game development or the time it would take to put my suggestion into practice, but I'll give it anyway. What about an opt in system? Prior to kick-off both coaches get a prompt asking if they want 2 minute turns. If both coaches agree, then the timer is set to 2 minutes. If both coaches disagree or only one opts for 2 minutes, the timer is set to the standard 3 minutes. Again, I have no idea if this is in the realm of possibility, but it seems like a good middle ground.

How many of the coaches here have kids?

I dunno about you guys, but I’m a stay at home dad, so I can often play while my kid’s happy/fed &!busy playing with his LEGO, cars or watching peppa pig etc. I will regularly need to help him out with things (car under the couch, showing me what he’s put inside a surprise egg etc), it might be for 10s, it might be a minute (anything longer and I can pause if it’s a big drama), but that’s time which I’m losing from my turn.

But that’s fine, as we have 3 minute turns and so I’ve got a buffer over the minimum time I’ll likely require for my turn. Take away that buffer and I’m not going to say “But that’s fine” anymore, because I don’t have that buffer. It’d simply mean I couldn’t play until he went to bed (unless I wanted to lose matches because his toy car’s under the couch).

What it really comes down to, is do you want more CCL matches played, or less? As I’m sure there would be a lot of players who would either quit CCL or still play but reduce their matches played since they couldn’t play while they might get distracted.

Reduce the number of players queuing for CCL and it becomes more difficult to find matches / close TV matches.

That then snowballs because if you can’t find matches, or only find someone 400TV above you, players will queue even less frequently.

Trying it for a season could show you that effect, but even if you put an announcement up ingame saying it was only for 1 season, would you get all of the players back? How many would even know that the turns were back to 3mins?

Lets try for a season or two. If the numbers go down, the reaction is obvious.

Poll has been closed. The admins are discussion what to do next.

@geryon said in 2 minute turns for PC CCL 22 poll:

Poll has been closed. The admins are discussion what to do next.

That was a quick (less than an hour after the so-called poll was declared closed.. on a work day) discussion that I'm betting happened quite a while beforehand.

Who, pray tell, is doing the analysis on this data you say you're collecting (given that Dode is no longer part of the CCL admin team) and what is the metric being used to determine "better" or "worse"?

It might just be my imagination, but to me it seemed that over the last 5-6 seasons the number of teams/coaches in CCL have been steadily rising to almost double the amount.

So, wouldn't it make sense to just start two CCLs, one with 3 minute turns (i.e. same as now) and one with 2 minute turns simultaneously.

Yes, there's always the fear of the split player base, but if match-making wasn't a problem with half the player base (from now), I can't imagine that with double the player-base that is potentially halved into two competitions (not really, as lots of people can and probably will start spinning simultaneously, if they don't find a match in one or the other), it suddenly will become a problem.

This is supposed to be a compromise proposal. Assuredly, the match-making for each of these competitions will be potentially worse in comparison to now due to lower numbers of coaches spinning in each, assuming an unchanged player-base engaging in any CCL. However, 2 minute turns might bring in some players that won't play with 3 minutes, so there's at least a chance of additional coaches joining the 2 minute CCL. Those that won't play without 3 minutes still have their competitive refuge that's only slightly dampened to a previous state.

This setup could be done for 1 or 2 seasons as in the change-only proposal above.

"So, wouldn't it make sense to just start two CCLs, one with 3 minute turns (i.e. same as now) and one with 2 minute turns simultaneously"

@ugh There is already a PC based "2 min CCL". It is called Champions Open League (COL).

last edited by Viajero

Not sure if i should bother you with this message but i just wanted to share my point of view of 2min turns in CCL.

I have been playing ccl since i bought the game and found great enjoyment in the league. It was a great place to find a quick game and to develop skills. I have streamed many hours of CCL to the enjoyment of both the viewers and myself.

But that has changed with the 2min turns for myself. I feel that the 2min turns have now crippled the chance for players to now develop those skills experimenting with new teams or new players to come into the CCL to play.
I am not a complete incompetent player, i know the rules, the skills and the teams (having played almost every race in CCL bar a few) , but i am struggling to manage with the 2min timer, to the point it has cost me games in critical moments. The whole 2min experiment has left me with a sour taste in my mouth to the point i have deleted all CCL teams and i wont participate in further seasons until the 3min timer returns.
I fear CCL is becoming an exclusive tournament for extremely well skilled players, meme teams and not for the above mentioned players.
I wish to see the game grow, the community in CCL expand and the competition to develop alongside it but i fear 2min turns is really hobbling that to the point that an average player such as myself can not enjoy it no more.
Perhaps i am wrong and i am too slow for CCL but is that the direction that the champion Cup League wants to go in? To favour the few and to exclude the majority?
(Also i dont always need to take 3mins every turn, just wanted to point that one out 😅 )

I have never cared or worried about the prize money. I loved the format for what it was and i also loved the chance to play against a variety of teams made by players across the world.
Its with deep regret i leave the CCL, as i truly loved it but this average player can not play in that environment unless i just play a standard click and hit bash team (which i don't want to be pigeon holed into)
Thank you for taking the time to read this

Kind Regards
AussieVikingr (aka Aaron)