[Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus

No, Cruiser Clash is not superior to Point Cap in regards to balance nor in regards to fun.

thats and opinion on i dont share. Cruiser clash is way more fun to me. Opinions aside the facts are that take and hold requires a signifigant amount more skill than cruiser clash, given that the fleet sizes are much greater i dont see this pressing need to force even larger micro heavy rosters on average to low skilled players. Back to opinions I not only personally dislike this mode i see it driving away or at the very least intimidating potential players from even attempting to play MP which in the long run means the scene dies that much faster.

I really enjoy the Domination mode which is a unique feature in BFG2....I like the feature of turrets and station on fortified systems although the turrets get really weak once you get access to area effects like nova cannons or bombs / scarab swarm /etc. These should be scaled in strength e.g. according to the Leadership value for the battle to keep them worth buying / being an additional disadvantage you face for attacking a system that has them. Besides that I enjoy the tactical depth and relevance of lighter ships that makes my battles more interesting than it would be in a simple kill mission.

@imptastic said in [Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus:

thats and opinion on i dont share. Cruiser clash is way more fun to me. Opinions aside the facts are that take and hold requires a signifigant amount more skill than cruiser clash, given that the fleet sizes are much greater i dont see this pressing need to force even larger micro heavy rosters on average to low skilled players. Back to opinions I not only personally dislike this mode i see it driving away or at the very least intimidating potential players from even attempting to play MP which in the long run means the scene dies that much faster.

I 100% disagree that Cap and Hold requires more skill. It's much easier for your average player that hasn't learned the ins and outs of each faction to focus on builds for Cap and Hold. The difficulty comes in managing a fleet while in combat and how to best utilize your factions to their advantage in combat.

Cap and Hold still leads to a big clash, maybe eventually people will focus on builds for capping points but if they do that then they won't be able to stand up against fleets geared out for combat and you can just sit on the 3 points closest to each other. So you still get a "Cruiser Clash" in Cap and Hold where if it were only Cruiser Clash you would see Eldar hit and run builds become the "go to" once again which means no clash at all.

In the first game, you can deny if you want but it's true, much of what drove people away was the Eldar that didn't allow them to get an actual clash because they would hit and run. So while Cap and Hold may drive away a certain amount of people I see Cruiser Clash(based off current balance of factions) driving away many more once that same Eldar build becomes popular to those who only care about winning.

Eldar hit and run builds destroyed the fun in the first game and would do the same in this one so it's not just an opinion held by me. In Ranked you can't make a "gentleman's agreement" with your opponent, you'll get some people that want to play for fun and others that only care about their win stats.

@alandauron forcing someone focus to 3 to 5 just areas of the map the whole game requires a lot more of the player add in that they have to manage larger fleets with multiple escorts flying around in far reaches of the map to where their main force is. You can say that that doesnt take more skill but you would be wrong this mode heavily punishes fleets that consist of few heavy class ships that would be far more eaiser for a lower skilled player to manage then these current 10 to 14 ship fleets that are ideal for the mode. You can ignore what implications larger fleet sizes and demanding modes have on the desire of people to play MP have thats your prerogative but to insinuate that managing a larger fleet across more of the map is easier than managing a few ships in a small portion is ridiculous sorry but its true.

@imptastic A lower skilled player is going to lose to a higher skilled player, period. I think we can both agree to that.

In regards to which is easier for a lower skilled player that would be cap and hold by a long shot. While it does add something extra to consider/micro on the map it also prevents higher skilled players from simply decking out their fleet to be most effective in a straight up brawl. This actually makes it easier for lower skilled players because they don't get wiped as quickly in that clash that is inevitable. I am a lower skilled player, I have never been a great player in regards to micro and having Cap and Hold actually gives me a chance because of how it slows down the fighting to an extent.

@alandauron ugg... its not about weather or not a high skilled can be a low skilled its about how much the low skilled is wanting to even try to manage.... a 14 ship fleet is out of the question so now the mode has made their armament by comparison sub optimal add in that they now must split their focus amonst more than they can see now your punishing their reflexes more. all these things add up to a frustrating experience if it feels like the game is rigged against you then as far as you are concerned it is. Take and hold will never be as you seem to claim it is because it cant it by nature requires a larger meta game which is always the most intimidating factor of MP this day in age. Its fine if you believe its better for balance because frankly it is but the MAIN fact remains this game will never have a large player base to start with and limiting it right of the bat with intimidating mechanics is a horrible idea this was one of the worst choices they could have gone with to encourage people to play MP. I know everyone wants to play the look at eldar game but they benefit greatly from take and hold if they were forced to always be attacking clumped up fleets they would find themselves with a much worse win rate. Kiting is a problem regardless of what mode you play and always will be unless you actually put up modes that makes one person attack and the other defend i.e. break through from the last game. Even then someone will use the fact the races are base strats are so different to cheese half the matches.

the short version: 12 factions means never gonna be balanced, relying on a mode to do that for you will never work may as well make it a more likeable mode or better yet multiple modes.

Yeah, I call bs on 90% games being won by capping, this is absolutely not the case. I can see why people wouldn't want singleplayer battles to have caps, scince it can sometimes be tedious clearing everything out, but capture points must stay in multiplayer.
Lost because the enemy captured all the points ant the counter ran out? Good, players deserve to lose if they are outmaneuvered and don't pay attention to important aspects of the battle.
You know why capture points are necessary? Because they make cancerous turtling and permakiting tactics not viable. If you've played the first game's multiplayer competatively you must have seen how utterly broken such things were. Don't like fight dragging on? How about trying to chase that one eldar escort ship across the map with your slow IN ships? Or maybe an invisible nid fleet sitting in the corner of the map spamming squadrons. That sure sound like fun and engaging gameplay.
Capture points are an absolite nesessity for multiplayer because they force player to engage with each other. Why so many people fail to understand this simple premise is beyond me.

@liberalperturabo i understand that argument but people play games to have fun and if your desire to make a markedly challenging environment drives others away then your left with a "great game" no one plays.... enjoy that mentality all the way to the 2 hr wait queues.

@imptastic

people play games to have fun

Therefore you advocate for a decision that will infelst multiplayer with extremely cheesy and infuriating meta. Yeah, no, I fail to see how this is a coherent argument.

@liberalperturabo probably because you have trouble seeing past what you want out of the game. to you this idea of take and hold keeps the game pure to me it makes it repetitive and boring and if yo u think the mode is going to save you from meta races or meta builds boy is your look of disappointment going to be epic.

@imptastic you're completely ignoring the experience new players will have with Cruiser Clash the way they did in the first game. They will outright refuse to play once they encounter battles that they can't even engage the opponent(Eldar) and in which they just instantly lose their main ships(Tyranid). The first game showed us that new/low skill players didn't enjoy straight up Cruiser Clash. Are there issues with Cap and Hold? Definitely. Is it more of an issue than Cruiser Clash? Not by a long shot.

@alandauron i agree that some will not like cruiser clash but imo a lot more people at least give it a chance. my personal experience with this game trying multi for the first time was cap points yep never again... ofcourse i had to again because my scrim abilities were locked behind the mp wall so i just went through the motions until my desire to make it stop was so great i just started capitulating withing the first 10 seconds which i didnt want to do because its kinda scummy to the other player but i digress you want a mode that will have the most people try it to start with because someone who never tries will never be a regular player in the MP scene whereas someone that does try it at least does have a chance of it.

@imptastic, and my first experience was that "Cap and Hold everytime...well at least there's no Eldar spam." The only conclusions we can draw currently is that in the first game Cruiser Clash didn't work and that you and I have different opinions.

@alandauron all the modes from the first game were tailored to SP from the onset any serious MP push would have never included planetary assault as an option. the cruiser clash their followed the same rules that the SP game had which didnt need to take into account for running out the timer. with the change to escorts and stances they have already made i see a different landscape already. will their be meta cheese builds? sure but your going to get them anyways. 12 factions are impossible to balance, its already been stated by them in their answer to feedback post when they said ideally we want all the races to fall between 40 and 60 percent win ratios, 20 percent spread is not even close to "balanced" not to mention the moving goal post it creates.

@imptastic the same issues that were seen in the first game can exist in this game so Cruiser Clash will have the same result, discouraging to new and low skilled players. 12 factions being impossible to balance is exactly why Cap and Hold will be less frustrating for new and lower skilled players than if there were only Cruiser Clash.

So...

  1. From a balance perspective Cap and Hold makes more factions viable
  2. From a new player standpoint Cap and Hold makes it easier to get into
  3. From a frustration stand point chasing escorts between points is less so than chasing entire Eldar fleets

Once again, I'm not the biggest fan of Cap and Hold across the board but from all the arguments against it, it still makes more sense than Cruiser Clash. In MP with a leaderboard in this game it is the more reasonable option regardless of how much we dislike it being the only option.

@alandauron the way fighters and escorts work now makes it a lot easier to hunt down stealth ships than the previous game, assuming you would have the same outcomes for the same reasons when you have this many different variables is a stretch. starting out with having to field a 10 - 14 ship fleet and manage a dota esk meta game is not easier to get into im sorry its just not. The only way what your saying would be true is if you had the player base that was large enough to stop top tier players from playing relatively new or low skilled players since that is not and will not be the case your just giving more options to more adept players win and in the process rob players of their EPIC battles they want. i know everyone wants the perfect balance utopia but as of this moment you already have valarak out their with his relatively popular 40k channel calling it not fun. That kinda press out the gate is horrible for a niche game like this, what are you willing to pay for this slightly better "balance"?

to me it makes it repetitive and boring

So from your point of view the logical decision is to make multiplayer experience objectively worse. To make the game less boring. Got it.
In this case why stop here? We can have like 5% chance of doubling the player's fleet in MP. Sure it is a horrible decision that makes the battle unwinnable for his opponent, but it sure will be less boring.

@liberalperturabo ask yourself what has more people playing it? the custom games side of starcraft or the melee side of starcraft? Your fixation on this everything must be balanced to be fun ideal is amusing.

@imptastic so you support my idea of sometimes putting one player into an unwinnable position from the start of the game by a roll of a die? It is much less boring than usual games and is sure is not balanced so it must be more fun, right?
If you want something changed in the game it might be useful to present a proper argument for in instead of goint on a weird tirade about perfect balance being unachiavable therefore nothing should ever be balanced.

@liberalperturabo you are taking extreme and obviously ridiculous circumstances and asking me to take you seriously when you ask questions like this im sorry but i cant lol.

as for my arguments i have made them quite clear. DONT FORCE THIS MODE ON EVERYONE MAKE MORE THAN THIS ONE SHITTY MODE OR SELECT A MODE THAT IS FAR LESS DIVISIVE SO PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRY TO PLAY MP INSTEAD OF SHELVING IT BEFORE IT STARTS AND STARVING THE MP COMMUNITY OF ITS NEEDED PLAYER BASE.