[Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus

@dadamowsky I don’t find take and hold fun. The games I enjoy are where people clearly want anhilation and gather for a brawl. If they run and cap and run, I get board quickly and capitulate. I am not the only ones epithet, several threads by those refunding list this as a reason. Other ways to win is fine, but this mode seems to be damaging people’s desire to play the game, not encouraging it.

How do you find a FoTM annihilation then? Now it's Nids boarding. Or a Necron bomb from the past. Or the upcoming (after Nids nerf) stealthy Drukhari rapes, as you can't even targetthem.

Unless you expect a mirror factions, where everyone are more less playing the same mid range circling around game in the different skins, that's what you will get - one idea that will be superior in killing, no matter what you do.

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@dadamowsky even that imbalance is better than playing chase the stealth escort/cL. You can at least plan around fleets that want to fight you, even if they are blatantly better. You can’t for fleets you can neither catch nor see.

I am pleased that the devs are NOT getting rid of the capture point system and also pleased that they are listening to the players and making an "extermination only" win condition an option.

For me, the capture point system does something that is desperately needed: it gives fleets who don't (with average players on both sides) have a chance in a stand up fight still have a competative place in the game.

My opinion on this topic is that capture points are a great start to a multiplayer system. I see alot of people posting that escorts are an issue in this mode. From my anecdotal evidence, I would not agree this is the case for the majority of my fights. I have lost only twice to capture points both where due to out maneuvering and properly placement of the enemy fleet, if the situations where left in a cruiser clash seniario, they would have been forced to kite my damaged cruiser to death for more than 5 minutes, with the same result a win on their part. The second time it was a narrow victory, where I could not decap everything because I forgot to send 1 escort out to challenge his lone escort, and my damaged batteship/escort that were left behind didnt win it. I was beat soundly both times by tactical choices or blunders I made that my opponent did not, I feel that is solid game play. The requirement of one escort ( two preferred) to a fleet build isn't much of a burden and generally is a part of some solid lists anyway. It forces you to have situational awareness outside the current battle and once again gives the game more depth. Just like in chess, those escorts should be lined up to be nullified by where you decide your main engagement is, or destruction of those escorts before end game, think ahead right ?

I think added game modes should NOT be placed into multiplayer currently. The Dev still have to balance the fleets to this one game mode, adding further game modes merks that water up even more, realize that they are attempting to balance more than double the "races" that starcraft had, and its no small feat. Adding multiple situations to it will only cause it to take longer. Once the ships are configured properly for one mode, other modes , should then, be looked at , as you have reliable base to grow from. I would love to see escort missions, push maps, and other scenarios be placed in the game, but not in multiplayer right now. Most battles are fought over key locations and I'm okay as a base. Finally you can just kill em all, done it to plenty of people that tried to play the map, its possible.

What I would like to see them implement is something to make disengagements more alluring than they are currently, forcing a tough choice, currently its a " if I can I will but eh" choice, at my teir of play.

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@nemesor-xanxas said in [Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus:

@dadamowsky even that imbalance is better than playing chase the stealth escort/cL. You can at least plan around fleets that want to fight you, even if they are blatantly better. You can’t for fleets you can neither catch nor see.

The thing is - you don't have to. First and foremost, Escorts are easily counterable, even with the current setup. All you need are your own, one or two you HAVE TO bring anyway if you want to have any game against Drukhari or Nids. Second of all - what is easier to balance: several factions with their own skills and unites, or the capture points placements, pace, and points required to win? Afaik with my all gaming and gamedev experience, the game modes are where you balance the imbalancable differences between the play styles.

Let's look at the example, shall we. There's a superior RTS game that did it right. Had vastly different play styles available, and relied on capture points as the winning mechanics, but by the design the win could have been secured by two other means: annihilation, and secondary area control. The game even had (in its iteration) a 40k equivalent. And it's considered a pinnacle of the genre, played to this very day, despite all the years passed from the release. Company of Heroes, and the Dawn of War (obviously apart from the third installment). All the greatness and crazy longevity of these titles comes down to a single thing - the mission design consisting of multiple winning conditions. Which allows a mix of the viable play styles, apart from the pure panzer fist steamrolling. This game would be so freaking BORING if nothing but the biggest units counted toward a victory, even if it required (and it does require) a polished micro skills.

Now, I know. BFGA is a skirmish game, smaller in scale, and more arcade. It's ok. Luckily for us, the lessons from CoH can be easily implemented with the actions I've mentioned before: reorganising/cutting the capture points and the limit of the points required, optionally adding a tertiary "resource" control (in our case - a buffing spot), and keeping the annihilation as the optional, thus not necessary, way to be played. So the meat grinder factions could use their brute force to win at the expense of being a minimally smart in target priority and ground control macro, but the avoidance factions (that are already paying the price of being more fragile) had any chance and viability in the big picture.

This approach would also help to solve a power balance differences. As the factions wouldn't have to be so clearly superior in a single field of their killing power, or survivability, or utility.

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@dadamowsky See the issue with that is that if the escorts are going to count in a chase the fleet or cap the points fight, they have to leave the fleet, as the fleet cannot move around enough which is the entire reason they matter. Even if stealthed, once they scan or start capping, the enemy knows where they are, and that they are isolated, which means they can just pick them off as the slower fleet elements cannot react in time, and now you are back to stage one. I bring escorts with my fleets of course, but need to keep them close and stealthed if I want to have them survive long enough to be of use.

I will concede that there are games which can do this mode right, but disagree that this game does it half as well as the above I cannot speak for CoH as I never played it enough to be an authority or even someone to speak casually on it, but there were many steps taken in DOW that would mitigate the problems we now face. First, you could fortify points so that if you wanted to you could go take fight the enemy army. Second, you could make more troops so if your scouts did get killed you weren't doomed like here. Third, you could see your foe and remake your army as many times as the game allowed, which you cannot here or even make once with that knowledge here. Fourth, there were ways to get around mobility issues like transports or teleporting for the necrons, which there aren't here. Fifth, There were fixed points (bases) that you could destroy to win and those could not run away. They could be rebuild, sure, but couldn't move easily. Funnily, the eldar could be just as annoying and unfun as here by playing everyones favorite minigame "hunt the last webway gate" which I would compare to this mode. So I don't think its really comparable in this games current state. If they did cut the number of points though, and stick them closer together, I think that would help alot and I would be much more tolerant of the mode.

@nemesor-xanxas said in [Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus:

@dadamowsky See the issue with that is that if the escorts are going to count in a chase the fleet or cap the points fight, they have to leave the fleet, as the fleet cannot move around enough which is the entire reason they matter. Even if stealthed, once they scan or start capping, the enemy knows where they are, and that they are isolated, which means they can just pick them off as the slower fleet elements cannot react in time, and now you are back to stage one. I bring escorts with my fleets of course, but need to keep them close and stealthed if I want to have them survive long enough to be of use.

Idk how about you, but I'm flexible when it comes to my fleet composition and its uses. If I need Escorts to babysit my core, I make them babysitting my core, and it's the core that is jumping the points. If I need them to cap points, I send them to cap the points while the core buys them the time to do so. The little detail might come handy though, I take more than 1 Escort, so I can actually do both in a limited way. If my opponent is not smart enough to bring his own and gank my Escorts down, he's fucked all right, by his own wish and design. The latter is more often than not the case, especially when I read "only people that suck dicks play the capture game" in chat (true and sad story). And I main a freaking Mechanicus now, which is not a titan of the stealth, speed, survivability or killing power.

I will concede that there are games which can do this mode right, but disagree that this game does it half as well as the above I cannot speak for CoH as I never played it enough to be an authority or even someone to speak casually on it, but there were many steps taken in DOW that would mitigate the problems we now face. First, you could fortify points so that if you wanted to you could go take fight the enemy army. Second, you could make more troops so if your scouts did get killed you weren't doomed like here. Third, you could see your foe and remake your army as many times as the game allowed, which you cannot here or even make once with that knowledge here. Fourth, there were ways to get around mobility issues like transports or teleporting for the necrons, which there aren't here. Fifth, There were fixed points (bases) that you could destroy to win and those could not run away. They could be rebuild, sure, but couldn't move easily. Funnily, the eldar could be just as annoying and unfun as here by playing everyones favorite minigame "hunt the last webway gate" which I would compare to this mode. So I don't think its really comparable in this games current state. If they did cut the number of points though, and stick them closer together, I think that would help alot and I would be much more tolerant of the mode.

First - you can do that already. If you wish, you can spend your in-game resources to sit on point and disable the capping. For instance... with the Escort? Or if you fancy, the heavier class. Second and third - it's irrelevant to the BFGA, as everyone starts with the roughly same army value and are similarly limited in their choices. Unless you bring nothing but a single-purposed force neglecting the other parts of the game. But a pure Escorts army will get owned more often than not, just as the pure BCs. Fourth - how come have you concluded there are no means to manage the the mobility in this game, when each faction has some sort of the mobility quirk by their very design? Fifth - and here you have fixed fleet you can destroy, that might be mobile, but so are you.

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@dadamowsky I too generally bring multiple escorts, but if they sit in the middle of my fleet the entire problem (fleet is to fast to catch and fight/they cap points all over the map b/c speed) is not adressed. If I group and sit on a point, I lose as they have 4 points to my one, which will remain so when I move to the next point and they cap that one. If I split, picked off. I main necrons, which are also not the best at speed and manueverability, nor do they have anything resembling stealth outside CL fleets.

First, no you can't. You cannot leave things behind on points and run off with your army, you must leave some of your fleet, weakening it and likely getting that ship piked off, or leave nothing. The second point is a big one, as if you lose that escort you seem to realize defines this game mode because you had it alone or even with others, you now have less escorts and are closer to losing automatically, whereas in DoW you could scout with units because you could get more. This irreplaceibility of escorts does not lend itseld well to scouting/capping gameplay where they are likely to get picked off. If what you are suggesting is sit on a point with your fleet and run around with stealth escorts, that just leaves your escorts against the entire enemy fleet. My third point is that in that game you could at least change things so you didn't have a fleet that instantly lost vs certain fleets, which is certainly present here and while you or they could have it happen its still dumb. Oh, there are ways to manage mobility all right, but not adequately. In the scenario listed, there are ways to quickly or instantly get to points, even across the map in time. Here, even with AAF you likely won't get to the point before decapped unless its close and necrons cannot get anywhere in any sort of time. With recall sure they can return to whatever point is being capped but that has not only a long cooldown but sticks them all in one place, leaving all other points open. Fifth, I have no idea what you are saying here.

@nemesor-xanxas said in [Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus:

@dadamowsky I too generally bring multiple escorts, but if they sit in the middle of my fleet the entire problem (fleet is to fast to catch and fight/they cap points all over the map b/c speed) is not adressed. If I group and sit on a point, I lose as they have 4 points to my one, which will remain so when I move to the next point and they cap that one. If I split, picked off. I main necrons, which are also not the best at speed and manueverability, nor do they have anything resembling stealth outside CL fleets.

First, no you can't. You cannot leave things behind on points and run off with your army, you must leave some of your fleet, weakening it and likely getting that ship piked off, or leave nothing.

You don't have to literally sit on point the entire game. You can move this one Escort between its nearest points, and sit on it when the hostile Escort is capping. And either you send other ships to intercept, or you buy yourself a time to cap the other points.
One of my games, the one that a certain Mr_Streamer lost his temper over, I did exactly that. I've been buying my time with the core fight. I've been sitting with my last remaining Cruiser on the point, and microing the armor the best I could, just to block the cap. Which bought my Escort the time to secure two remaining points. And even though I lost the Cruiser, and that other point, I have traded it for two. I don't know Necrons very well now, but as far as I can tell the teleporting Escorts can be really efficient in this tactic already. And they surely soloed my Imperial Escorts easily (idk how they fare against other factions).

The second point is a big one, as if you lose that escort you seem to realize defines this game mode because you had it alone or even with others, you now have less escorts and are closer to losing automatically, whereas in DoW you could scout with units because you could get more. This irreplaceibility of escorts does not lend itseld well to scouting/capping gameplay where they are likely to get picked off. If what you are suggesting is sit on a point with your fleet and run around with stealth escorts, that just leaves your escorts against the entire enemy fleet.

And you can do exactly the same to the enemy - kill his scouts before he kills yours. Besides, each ship has a detection range. Escorts are important because of their scan, and it's surely an uphill battle if you lose them, but you can fill their spot with a LC for instance, if you're out of options. The problem you will mention, and which I will agree on, are the Drukhari, that are unbeatable without the Escorts. Or without being an OP nuking faction like Nids are now. This require devs to shift the overall stealth mechanic - for instance with lowering the accuracy or damage, both in shooting and boarding (in general, lowering the dps) when stealth effect is applied. Otherwise this single mechanic will own the game. But it will do so no matter if you keep the scoring points, or make the game annihilation only mode.

My third point is that in that game you could at least change things so you didn't have a fleet that instantly lost vs certain fleets, which is certainly present here and while you or they could have it happen its still dumb. Oh, there are ways to manage mobility all right, but not adequately. In the scenario listed, there are ways to quickly or instantly get to points, even across the map in time. Here, even with AAF you likely won't get to the point before decapped unless its close and necrons cannot get anywhere in any sort of time. With recall sure they can return to whatever point is being capped but that has not only a long cooldown but sticks them all in one place, leaving all other points open.

In comparison to any Imperium/Chaos and their choice between the slow foot slogging, or fast foot slogging, Necrons seems to be crazy fast to me. But I have to play them to be actually informed enough to say anything substantial. Maybe the cooldowns on the ability are too great, idk.

Fifth, I have no idea what you are saying here.

You've mentioned bases that you need to destroy to win. So I reminded you that you can destroy fleets here. A single stealthed Escort is not even the problem if you haven't been neglecting the points the entire match, as all you have to do is to secure two, three points with heavier ships for that lonely Escort to be damned. A simple limit in amount of the cap points to 3, or prizing a central capture point with more score per tick (when a central point and the other one is equal in gain to the three normal cap points), is (I think) a doable and elegant solution to the problem anyway.

last edited by dadamowsky

I just made an account to post on this topic, to oppose what it seems to be a very vocal minority. Until I discovered this topic I have only heard praise for the capture the point system, both on streamers and my personal friends and how it is a huge improvement for the multiplayer experience. And it actually led me to give BfGA2 a chance and buy it.

I do like the capture point system, especially in multiplayer it is really needed. It forces fights and leads overall to a more interesting match with a tactical component, which is not just "herp derp, smash the fleet!".

I really hope the devs don't give in on this. If they drop it in the campaign I don't care that much.

@dadamowsky the issue is that I specifically mentioned the aeldari fleets as with them and other fleets, it won't be contensting just an escort, but a cruiser, light cruiser, or with the druhkari a battleship, and then it dies real quick. The issue with those fleets is there will not be a core fight. There will just be stealth ships running around the map capping points and killing all your escorts. Teleporting escorts can escape and run around fast enough, but that reveals them, and with the kind of fleet that I am talking about will quickly lead to their death. Necron escorts are kinda lacking in dps though, but luckily most are so in the case of contesting they can work decently as long as it is just an escort I was contesting. That is kind of something all ecorts are at the moment though, save druhkari. I had a match today where my jackal reached the point at the same time as the imperial escort with a torpedo launcher and a macro showed up, two of them. The rest was a heavy tonnage fleet in the middle. I won that fight, and killed all his ships. I looked back and to my surprise no one was dead over their yet. None of the escorts were below half health actually.

Well, as necrons killing enemy scouts is difficult, as it requires catching them and the ships that can catch them have no DPS. Necron ships are very slow after all. You can use light cruisers, but remember that necron ships are very expensive, and those light cruisers cost as much as other races cruisers, so you cannot have a lot of them, especially considering if you have 2 jackals thats 110pts right there. If you go that route you get a CL fleet, which is kind of like what It will be chasing except slower and with less DPS.

Necrons are really slow. The cooldown on teleport is 90 seconds, and there is no turn on it so you likely have to spend time rotating your vessels very slowly after. It is disabled by an engine crit and doesn't go as far as AAF. Also, you cannot ration it and keep it off cooldown like AAF. The sole exception to the rule is the Jackal, which is fast.

This goes back to the original problem. To take those points and keep them you must split the fleet, which gets picked off. You cannot bring the enemy fleet to battle if it is the type we are discussing, so killing it is a no-go. If you leave and try to cap other points, yours are capped. Your solutions would neatly solve the problem though.

@dadamowsky said in [Community Update dev response] The Capture Point game mode needs to be Subjected to exterminatus:

@Bosie
In short, you want a game with two equally capable sides executing each other at distance. Don't take me wrong, it's ok if that's your thing, but the longevity of the game would be abysmal due to no variety in play styles, or no differentiation in factions and tactics available. Imagine this game to have nothing but IN.

No. I'm asking for boarding, capture points and perma stealth to be looked at.

@bosie
Which is not even a subject of this topic.

My bad, I thought this topic was about capture points.

The capture point system is actually good. Here are two main reasons:

1.Firstly capture points make the game more interesting by giving it more tactical options and more depth because thanks to them you have more options how to win (either by points or by destroying the enemy) and they make the game more complex (which is good in my opinion) because thanks to them, positioning, map awareness and maneuvering actually means something.

Imagine how boring will the game soon become if there were no capture points and all battles well be like this: two fleets just go straight for the middle where they clash and the fleet with stronger ships automatically wins! Sorry but i find concept that extremely boring and dumb.

2.Secondly, without the capture points the game would became extremely imbalanced. Now many of the whiners who do not like capture points say that the game is imbalanced because fleets with faster ships or with more ships have huge advantage and removal of the capture points will make the game balanced (usually those are people who lose the game by they incompetence because they totally ignore the capture points even if they have the option to easily take them and then blame the game system for their own failure). But guess what!Those fast or stealthy ships are much weaker in direct engagement and If you remove those points, the game will go just to the other extreme and will be even more imbalanced because speed , stealth and maneuverability will mean nothing and therefore fleets which rely on speed or stealth will be asbsolutely useless and everyone will play only fleets with strong ships that have good brawling capability because those will be the only ones viable for competitive play!

Think this guy sums it up well in why the points are good but also why people are not understanding them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUebe8SujfI

So let it be imbalanced. Reintroduce the fleet management from BFGA1 and you would not care about winning every single match but care more about playing. Or just select three races and make them playable for ranked and the others for unranked.

Cruiser clash is the most fun mode for me and when I started this game I had a hard time because it was "chase the lone escort" mode. This is just unfun.

I think the Capture Points is fine, some of the time. We definitely need more mission types to keep the game fresh.

Also a reduced Capture point type in less important system would be a nice change, say 3 capture points instead of 5 (if you build defense platforms, you'll only get 2 instead of 4).

As it stands, we are being over saturated on the Capture Points. All SP and MP balance is based around the Capture Points essentially. If we had more game types we wouldn't be having this issue.