Community Update - 18 January 2019

yy your opinion is obviously more accurate than facts and datas.

@beernchips this data seems to suggest that the Druhkari area semi balanced faction with an even winrate in the hands of one who knows them. Anyone who has played the game knows that to be false.

Problem with people "knowing" is that they can t accept facts are contradictory to their belief. Drukhari are a good example I think because they are OP vs some factions (Orks) and useless vs other ones (Tau). Thats why the ratio in each specific matchups mustbe looked at and not only the global winrate of the faction so in the end Drukhari are not globally OP (otherwise they should have a winrate of 65%+) but are binary instead of balanced

last edited by Beernchips

@beernchips said in Community Update - 18 January 2019:

Problem with people "knowing" is that they can t accept facts are contradictory to their belief. Drukhari are a good example I think because they are OP vs some factions (Orks) and useless vs other ones (Tau). Thats why the ratio in each specific matchups mustbe looked at and not only the global winrate of the faction so in the end Drukhari are not globally OP (otherwise they should have a winrate of 65%+) but are binary instead of balanced

Isn't this the absolute definition of terrible balance though?

I don't want a match to be decided before we even get into the game unless they include an auto concede button at the start of said match ups

@beernchips druhkari are great against all factions, they can drop a cairn to zero in 30 seconds flat. Relying on plain numbers without context is very unwise, especially in competitive games and especially early on. For example, there is another game I play called DoTA 2. There are two characters in it I would like to use to further explain my point, known as rikki and earth spirit. Earth spirit has a very low winrate, so he must be bad by your logic. This is false. He is so good he is banned from use at the start of most official tournaments during the banning phase, or at least he was last I checked. He is very good, but checked by incompetence and such in low levels leading to his low winrate. In The Druhkari case, the last time I defeated them, it was because they tried to brawl with me like they were IN. Valrak also commented that he has seen many doing this in his newest video, further reinforcing my point. I expect this to change as the game ages. The Necrons in this case a rikki. He has a very high winrate, so he must be good right? No, he’s bad, but gains permanent invisability. This can be countered by several very cheap items, after which he dies very easily. As such, you don’t see him much outside of their equivalent of bronze. The Necrons, like rikki, are just not facing truly competent opposition in those lower tiers, and can thus doggedly scrape a win using min maxing. This is not the case in gold and up. I could provide many useless anecdotes about getting smacked around, but instead I’ll back up my argument with the highest ranking leaderboards that got posted on reddit today. In the highest ranking, there are few players. In ultra high were the nids, obviously, with 27 players. Merely super high we’re the Druhkari, with 19 players, supporting my earlier argument. After them came the high rank, SM, with 12 players. Medium rank is 8 players, and had IN, Chaos, and orks. Low, after that, was 4 players, being Asuryani and Tau Protector. Next we have even lower tier, where ad mech and Necrons firmly reside with two players each. Super low is Tau merchant, who only have one player. Below that is literally why tier, where corsairs and their grand total of 0 players exist. The statistical implications should be obvious, and helpful since you insisted upon the importance of numbers over people who experience the game.

Edit: To clarify I am talking about the top tier of players in my final analysis, it’s called legendary league I think, above epic rank.

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas

Happy for the content of the message and pleasantly surprised about the statistics on faction balance.
Keep up the good work Tindalos 🙂

last edited by Adm_Janus

@Bould : Definition of terrible balance yes coz its binary but it is not definition of OPness

@Nemesor : Problem with taking in account only best players is you remove the skill cap factor. Eldars are a good exemple (or if you prefer take Yasuo in LoL) If you don t have some skill to play them you will just be raped, its close to the high risk/high reward design. Does it mean it is OP? No.
Apart from players faction preferences, pro players will have a tendancy to play the skill required faction because they obtain more results with it that with easier to play faction which will always have, by design, a limit in the results achievable with them.

To clarify about previous posts : I am not saying that 50% winrate means balance but people always calling OPness based on their opinion is no more relevant too

@beernchips well, the Druhkari were less debated, but the reason why people say the Necrons are bad is a thorough examination of their ships and skills which has been done more than once. Taking their escorts as an example, they have repeatedly lost to ork escorts in max range shootouts, despite 100% accuracy. Their hp regenerates much slower than shields do as another point, and they don’t get that extra bit of hp or shielding from lightning strikes/crits. They also have very low DPS compared to other factions, and very high costs (ex: a cruiser costs more than an apocalypse class BB while being no where near as good). There are many more pints, but I don’t want to clog up the thread here. I am sure that you could find the many threads debating this, but people did not feel like copy pasting those arguments over here as they have already been said. I agree with the rest of your post though.

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas

Enjoyed playing the beta, can't wait to get into the campaign.

Great game, great artwork and sound design. More music would be welcome down the track.
Should do very well, congrats on producing this game with a small studio.

For all people concerned about the more nuanced balanced details here in the replies I would like to highlight this part of the post:

"It’s important to note these numbers do not represent with perfect accuracy how balance factions are. For example, some factions may perform better or worse depending on the skill level of the players, the exact fleet compositions being used, and so on. However, we’re happy to use this data alongside your continued feedback to improve things."

So they are not using those numbers as the only data point for faction balance.

They are listening, making changes and keeping us informed. Have a little more faith 🙂

last edited by Adm_Janus

Annihilation for campaign + PVE XP = One happy Imperator!

Great ideas Devs! Thanks for listening!

@adm_janus said in Community Update - 18 January 2019:

For all people concerned about the more nuanced balanced details here in the replies I would like to highlight this part of the post:

"It’s important to note these numbers do not represent with perfect accuracy how balance factions are. For example, some factions may perform better or worse depending on the skill level of the players, the exact fleet compositions being used, and so on. However, we’re happy to use this data alongside your continued feedback to improve things."

So they are not using those numbers as the only data point for faction balance.

They are listening, making changes and keeping us informed. Have a little more faith 🙂

No disrespect meant here at all Adm but so far the feedback brought up by quite a few people regarding Necrons has been totally ignored, so far this round of beta they've taken the one thing that made them competitive (starpulse) nerfed it hard while also getting a price INCREASE on their already crazy expensive ships. I'm not saying starpulse could have possibly stayed the same but there has been absolutely nothing from the miriad of idea's multiple people have come up with to help them to compensate that loss.

If anyone wants to see for themselves how bad things are, start up a custom game without capture points as Necrons and play against Orcs, see what you can field vs what they can field, see just how close the game is vs the god awful A.I then realise if that was a person that you would have absolutely had your behind handed to you.

People are saying they are having success with them in the capture mode by abusing the LC, Recall technique and essentially avoiding main fleet fights where they are horribly outgunned, are there any other factions where you'd want your admiral ship to be the lightest line ship you can field?? Or where their escorts have the highest damage per point value in their lineup (jackals)
The devs have to realise that just because you CAN win as Necrons, doesn't mean its currently fun to play as or against (90 second wack-a-mole with a mass recall bonus rounds thrown in every now and again) and as soon as the domination mode goes to way of the do-do as per the communities request, this will become even more so apparent.

Anyhoo last post on the subject, gonna go play some more Orcs.

last edited by Bould

This mostly sounds great, but this part is problematic to me:

A nerf for the Tyranids. Should be mostly based on ship point cost.

OK, sure - but isn't the whole problem with the Tyranids that their carrier fleets are just dominating because their assaults are almost instantly killing all the troops on enemy ships? It seems like this is the main reason Tyranids have a very high win rate, so just making their ships cost more across the board will not fix this, and it could just make the race useless if they aren't played in this particular style.

It seems to me that the amount of troop damage they do has to go down somewhat, at least with their boarding pods, so that their carrier fleets aren't just winning every match.

I suppose you might be planning to just increase the point value of their carriers a lot? And maybe that's what you meant? But that's just not what I would have assumed based on this bullet point.

It'd be great if you could see necron's max health go down in the healthbar on the bottom left corner

These are some great steps in the right direction and I think that's really good! But I also think, in order to get better feedback, subforums need be put in place for the various factions, so people can specifically address these factions and how their experience with playing them is.

Statistics aren't everything, but right now, there's so many different posts about various different factions all muddled together that it's hard to go through it all and see a proper consensus.

I think that would greatly help with providing further balance in future updates when the various factions have their own subforums to post in and about.

Hello, your average player here. I would like to state it is good you are gathering data and attempting to adjust the game.

I've only been playing for the two beta's but some common anecdotal observations from my games vs opponents in my skill set. I play mostly loyalist, imperial navy/ space marines. I find the Tyrinad match up to be a race to blow up the the main hive ship, which I feel makes for some epic game play. Not sure if that changes with more advanced play.

When I play vs necrons I don't have much trouble, not sure if people don't build them right, but it seems odd that a space marine fleet can down the 3 main ships they bring so quickly with boarding.

Tau are a rare sight at my level, and mostly I play vs chaos, which is a solid match up and probably my favorite so far. Ork scare me more than Nyds, as they don't have the same weakness, honestly there is no easily exploitable ork weakness that I've found.

Finally Dark eldar, are the most frustrating to play vs, I understand their play style, but unless your list is tailored to them, its tough to beat. They feel like playing a better version of Eldar, not really unique. I would like to see them be more close quarter combat Eldar, they can get really close to your fleet with stealth and most of their guns should do massive damaged up close, then they zoom out. This would give a better risk/reward dynamic, as you would only get a volly or two to take out their engines, but it would force them to come in close enough to be in the danger zone for more than 5-10 seconds. Eldar have similar tactics but you can see and shoot at them with your long range guns without needing to scan, so they don't feel as annoying.

Lots of people here will be putting the emphasis on high level gameplay, which I agree is important, but you can implement good mechanics that your common player finds enjoyable. One of the big things I noticed on a positive note, is my friend bought this game with me, and he had no problems within an hour or two ( with some simple tutorials from myself) understanding how to play chaos and winning matches with me in 2v2. That is great to see as the last armada, was a lot tougher to "jump into". Anyway Hope this helped with feedback.

PS : A Last stand 4 player map would be cool to implement down the road, where you and get ships and try to outlast hordes of enemies, with possible objectives. Maybe even hero ships you can put in down the line, I know previous 40k rts games had this and it extended their playablilty and life long after the competitive scene moved on.

@wind459 Necrons are terribke right now. Everyone builds either mass recall-pyramidal or transdimensional thunderbolt-pyramidal if they aren’t that level yet. They need pyramidal because they don’t have the repair option all others have so it’s auto take and use recall to overcome their terrible mobility, also and auto take. These are mandatory abilities to help patch the gaping holes in their fleet. The three main builds are cairn-scythes for brawling (easily hulked), Scythe -Lcadmirals for max starpulse vs ord meta (ok), and Cls-jackals for stealth capping. None of these are good builds, but the best they can have atm.

Reload stance bug slightly increases necron win rates since necrons can fight with dispersed lightning arc for more dps and nobody else has as strong a brawling stance.

The carrier meta also boosts necron win rates because of star pulse. The same can be said vs people running mass ordnance fleets.

The huge carrier meta is likely the reason necrons look okay.

would love to see post game stats for multiplayer, such a damage done, absorbed , kills etc

Dvs please!! stop balancing after WINRATES!!! it's the laziest thing to do...that's why most, if not ALL games today are totally imbalanced...it seems the easy way out but it is a big trap...since it creates a vicious circle that you can never get out of....balance should be a finetunig process of a solid established set of rules...finetuning is not done after general statistics...it's done by carefull ATTENTION TO DETAIL...

so necrons are still total trash..I mean THEY ONLY WIN BY THE MISTAKES OF THE OPPONENT otherwise they have no chance..they are too slow and too few in number to matter against any decent fleet -teleport does nothing (well only against corsairs they can stand out) ...ok I get it they should be slow and ponderous ponderous ..but also SUPER POWERFULL --they should be like the BORG CUBES from star-trek, what I propose is that their ships NEVER mutiny , moraleloss should be very hard (or they should not lose morale EVER like SM..you can argue on the moraleloss on SM since their ships are not crewed only by SM but also by chapter serfs-wich are actually the majority) and when the ships reach a certain health treshhold they should automatically teleport on a random spot in the map ..thay should not be able to engage until the ship is repaired to a certain treshhold...that would be lorefriendly ad strategically sound....and pls lower their cost a little