DPS comparisons, drukhari, imperials, tau

DPS comparisons:
Imperials (Single broadside and turret DPS)
Overlord BC: 7 DPS
Avenger GC: 8 DPS
Apocalypse BB: 12 DPS
Retribution BB: 13 DPS

Tau (Frontal weapons and turret DPS)
Custodian BB: 14 DPS
Protector C: 8 DPS

Drukhari
Obsidian rose BB: 56 DPS
Flayed skull C: 16 DPS

I think you see my point: the imperials just have far too low of a DPS to be worth anything in a straight up fight. A single obsidian rose, can quite literally, do more damage per second than an entire imperial fleet (of course this disregards any frontal weapons the imperials might have). The tau are slightly better, but you must remember: both of the listed tau ships have access to gravitic launchers AND hangers.

I just don't think it's fair that the imperials, a faction made for brawling and slugging it out (to some degree). Gets pooped on in a straight up fight against the faction suppossed to be running away and making cunning attacks

Please give me your thoughts on this

@goldenchicken The necrons are having just as much fun, the Scythe Cruiser for example costs more than that apocalypse, has the less dps that it doesn't get to double if its on both sides, has far less stats shields etc, and isn't armor piercing. You know whats really scary though? The DPS boosting ability of Kin Crewed batteries is not working right now, so once that is fixed it will be even higher.

Yeah, neglected to mention the necrons, because I think we already know right now, that they suck... a lot

Well, their ship has the least armor and one step less health than most faction (which is 33% to 20% less, not an insignificant amount), they also can't apply this DPS constantly because they have to turn around eventually. If the defender can get a scan on them they'll be shot at the entire time they are reforming to make the next run.

Though yes, looking at the raw number Drukhri DPS seems to be a pretty big outliner and I support any motion to nerf any Eldar, because fuck Eldar of any kind and I've been on the receiving end of multiple Obsidian Rose focus fire enough times already.

I think Tau DPS is fine. Their lower gunnery DPS is offset by long range and high crit chance.

last edited by pedro0930

@pedro0930 I once played a game against tau protector and I forgot to bring pyramidal reconstruction. By minute ten all my weapons and subsytems where gone, and they just went and capped all the points because I literally could not hurt them. But yeah I think the disadvantages you speak of will pale in comparison to when they get Kin Crewed Batteries back. I fear that day.

@GoldenChicken as much as its true, its still hurts me to hear it : (.

the least you could do is to compare dps/hull/shield vs point costs. and it does not help your argument, when you fail to count broadsides correctly. overlords have 10dps macro broadsides + 2 dps turrets. same for the rest of your listed navy ships. with good positioning you fire 10dps at two different ships for a combined damage output of 22dps. (ignoring acc and DR)

last edited by Fosil

Imperials and Necrons are the 'tanky' factions - more defense, less damage.
Drukhari is the exact opposite.

I think that Drukhari dps doesn't need much of a nerf, because they are supposed to be that way: a glass cannon. Their ships are made of paper and it's ok this way. They need to keep moving so they don't get many chances to shoot, that's why they need a high DPS. They shoot in bursts of 5-10 seconds to be effective and then have to retreat to prepare another attack run. What I think that really needs a buff is the damage dealt by lances. That is almost non existent right now.

macro canons feel like water pistols

@Fosil yeah sorry about that, I made a calculation error when making the overlord and retribution's DPS. Their DPS is 12 and 18 respectively.

Even so, let's compare hull and armor points in a straight up fight with an obsidian rose against a retribution
Obsidian rose DPS = 56, 8 of which is lance damage
The retribution's armor is 67 for the sides, which is most likely where it's going to get shot, 2400 hull points, 800 shields
With 56 DPS, the shields will drop in about 15 seconds, then the armor comes into play.
480.33+80.5=19,84
2400/19.84=120.96
These calculations mean, that a retribution battleship will drop after about 120 seconds of continuous fire from an obsidian rose battleship

Retribution DPS = 18, 3 of which is lance damage, that doesn't matter because Drukhari armor is 50 anyway
18*0.5=9
2000/9=222,2
This means, that an obsidian rose, with it's supposed frailty, takes almost twice as much time to kill for a retribution, than it can kill the retribution.

And I know that the ships are about 50 points apart, but that is more than made up for by the OR's almost double speed and sextoplue turning speed. Also keep in mind, these calculations do not take into account the OR's shadow fields, which any half-competent player can keep up. Not to mention the vastly better accuracy it has, which only increases the disparity in their kill times.

My point isn't necessarily that the imperials are weak, but more like they are extremely weak compared to a race that is supposed to be all about hit and run.

@goldenchicken shields regenerate every minute. you ignore 8x90dmg torpedos from the retribution, its 18.000 range, its ramming spur, that it has batteries that can fire on a second ship for most of its damage and its standard bravery too. DE has as comparison 9000 range -25 bravery and better boarding. the acc difference is 10% at 9.000 range. the point difference is 48, thats an navy escort with 200 shields, 400 hull and 3-4dps extra. having only forward facing firing arcs maybe a problem against a ship with better ramming that can move at 540 speed for 25seconds.

if you keep the comparison, time to kill for the obsidian is 165 seconds (you have to drop the shields three times) + 25 seconds for the escort and 180 seconds for the retribution + escort without torpedo use (45sec CD) and ignoring all the damage the 2nd battery can do. the whole comparison ignores range, morale, crits, boarding and acc.

last edited by Fosil

Shields regen, you consider both ships at 0 range for perfect accuracy, ships are static so DE can always attack with front only weapon, you consider 1v1 situation so Retri is not using second broadside, Retri also have 83 front armor and torpedoes.... I don t know if it change anything on the final result but your are lacking so many things on your comparison it is not usable for anything that thing you absolutely want to prove

@Fosil @Beernchips The problem is the second battery, it almost never fires in on a drukhari enemy. The reason I ignored so many factors, was because I presented one situation in which a drukhari player should never excell in, but does, which is just shooting from the front. The 8*90 torpedoes are practically worthless against an enemy who can boost to 1240 speed for 4.5 seconds, the front armor is such a narrow arc, that it's almost never hit. The ramming damageis inconsequential if you can't hit the bastard.

The point isn't to compare all aspects of the two battleships, as their purposes are different. Rather, I compare the main purpose of the retribution (slugging it out) with an almost tertiary purpose of the OR. That the OR can do so well in a task it should suck balls at, is just terrible design.

Dark Eldar is god tier IMO. They are also severely under performing right now due to reload stance and kin crew battery bugs.

When Nids get the nerf hammer I expect DE and then CW to be #1 and #2 respectively.

last edited by CowGoMoo

The reload stance bug is not helping the necrons too since it's their main stance for focus fire a big target. Most of the other fleets can at least use lock-on meanwhile.

You are taking the perfect situation for a DE : continous front fire without any contest.
If you force the DE to move he will lose the front arc and so get 0 dps. Torpedoes are not meant to hit in this situation but just to react.

My post was not to correct your DPS calculation which is good (except that shield regen and so the retri have 2 or 3 times his shield up before dying increasing his HP) it is just that you can t make any conclusion from this math.

To make it clearer : in a real battle, the retri dps will be 0 because (unlesss the DE is beyond bad skill) he will never identify the DE so will never shott him. So do we have to conclude that the Retri cost should be at 100 pts maximum? Not really because if you have 1 retri + 1 escort vs 1 DEescort + 1 OR, situation will be different.
Comparing ships in 1v1 situation have no meaning and cannot be used for any balance consideration

last edited by Beernchips

except the deldar dont need to move
it can just stand there and facetank for the short duration it takes to melt your ships
even if you hit deldar with a probe it doesnt matter
they can just park their ships next to yours stand there and kill you
the disruption bomb, stasis bomb and most of all the darkmatter dont improve this horrible situation
and then there is the non functional reload and kincrewed currently that dont even succeed in bringing them in line
expect deldar bullshit on day 1 as much as the last day of beta1
ships getting hulked by nids instantly will be like nothing compared to seeing a battleships hp drop to 0 in a few seconds

DE is also very good at focusing firing their massive dps. Having more ships in the scenario is going to push the advantage far more to the DE side due to lanchester square law (ie. The IN will loose dps much faster than DE).

dps is not a useful metric that is useful in a complex game as this.

last edited by Exard3k