Battleships for loyalist possibly need tweek ?

I play SM, IN, Mechanicus, overall I Find the battleships to be just too points heavy / slow to be used in most meta's currently. Am I wrong? I like making balanced fleets, but a battle barge is just a floating brick when your fighting eldar, or any other fast fleet. I guess im trying to figure out what role do they server in fights where your engaging with a fast fleet. I use alot of ensnares, but still the vast majority of the fight the BS is negated. Even in their main role of being tanks, other races seem to have the upper hand ork and nyds for example. So any ideas on what to do with them ? I enjoy a big hulking battleship , but it really doesn't seem like it can be used in a well rounded list. Any suggestions on how to make them more viable ? I think the points should be dropped so you could in theory bring a BS + 2 escorts, or a BS + 1 LC , so like - 100 points ? curious your thoughts. The other thing I was thinking is raising the speed on them but not sure from 160 to 180. Or in the case of the SM battle barge, go with 200 speed, but then up the point value by another 150 pnts, it can run with the fleet at the cost of a lot less escorts. Anyway you see what Im getting at , I want them to work well with the fleet not being a weird tumor.

Yeah, the battle barge is overpriced in my opinion. It needs more DPS to be a viable option. There is no reason to bring that instead of 3 mkII strike cruisers, they simply do the job better. I found only one use of the battle barge: use the mk1 and equip it with micro warp jump and the impenetrable shield. Then use an escort to get as close as possible to the enemy flagship and then summon the battle barge next to it. This way you have your mkI BB at close range where its bombardment cannons really shine and you can snipe the enemy admiral or any other high value target. Problem is that it will be surrounded and won't last long if the cruisers don't empty some ships around it.

last edited by Aram_theHead

Yeah, right now battleships are not worth it. Usually the Apocalypse COULD be, if the range buff order would work...because it would have pretty nice range this way. Problem then is its nova cannon, which you can't really bring on target as the ship turn so slow. It's a shame, I love battleships and in the tabletop they were always the mainstay of the fleet.

This is true of a lot of races as I understand it. The Cairn is the trash crown on the Necron trash heap, and I’ve been told the custodian isn’t very good either. The only battleships I know of that are good are ork battleships due to how cheap they are, and Druhkari battleships due to insane DPS.

The barge can be deadly to eldar players/kiting players with the right use of escorts and lock on. 3 Bombardment turrets with a ~25% chance to crit and a heavy macro battery with also a high chance to crit at 13000 range can brick a kiter very fast.

last edited by CHIN00K

short answer: they are not really worth it. if you take on, you want to have MWJ on it.

@chin00k wouldn't you be better off with simply 3 strike cruisers and launch the homing torpedoes and lightning strikes at them?

last edited by Aram_theHead

biggest no-go for me is the inability to use high energy turns. The Battle Barge at least got that feature....but using torpedoes, nova cannon on the apoc or just the ability to somewhat keep up with fleet movement would be a nice addition for the price you pay.

There is nothing special on battleships except some benefits like more troops and more boarding damage (can't say I feel this to be a benefit for my imperial BS you mainly get to get good range and firepower)

I rather get an Overlord for firepower and be able to use 6 torpedoes rather than a Retribution with 8 torpedoes I cant really use because of no high energy turns. And the Retribution at least got 160 speed to work with to keep it in line with your formation which doesn't apply to other Imperial BS.

Half rotation speed is fine and still works for high energy turn as the boost is a percentage boost. But the low maneuverability attribute is just too much on a ship class that doesn't have any other unique selling proposition, although one could say Sensors or Overload Lances fit into this category. I'd rather get rid of the "ImaBrick" attribute or get 1k shields+3k hull+more troops.

@aram_thehead said in Battleships for loyalist possibly need tweek ?:

@chin00k wouldn't you be better off with simply 3 strike cruisers and launch the homing torpedoes and lightning strikes at them?

This is a bit different...only the Mk II has torpedoes and sacrifices either LaunchBays (Mk I) or the prow lance (Mk III). 3x Mk II wont give you any ranged weaponry or launchbays. Battle Barges gets you everything in one pricy ship.

last edited by Exard3k

Battle Barges are rubbish unless you grind your way to micro warp jump.

Yeah the Imperial damage is rather poor as they rely on macros and don't have the massive raw damage to compensate for the strength of armour like eldar and orks. Their previous strength of their strong shields (with upgrades) is pretty mitigated by the general strength of armour. They're in a place overall where they tend to lose to long range fleets at long and close range fleets at close range as they lack the mobility to really capitalise on the enemies weaknesses that they presumably have in the face of IN's 'jack of all trades' style. Outside of a single build IN is quite weak overall.

last edited by BrohanBroski

Having played mostly IN, SM and Chaos I would like to agree. The chaos battleships are quicker than both IN and SM equivalents and they excel at long range support. They do their job well.

The Apocalypse class is too slow, its lances don't hit enough and it can be easily picked off and overwhelmed. It is also hard to align the nova cannon properly due to the very low turn speed.

The Retribution class is a bit better, it has the same speed of your other cruisers so it's harder to isolate and pick off, its close range performance is better than the Apocalypse and it's equipped both with torps and ramming spur making it an excellent weapon platform (if you can bring the fight up close).

The Oberon and Emperor classes both seem too expensive for what they do and I have yet to include either in any of my builds.

Similarly Battle Barges suffer from being slow, and they too can find themselves isolated and picked off relatively easily. Combined with the relatively low ship count of the SM fleet they often seem an inferior choice compared to strike cruisers that can maneuver around threats much better and deliver more space marines assaults faster.

On the Oberon and Emperor:

These have no bow special weapons, and suffer from high costs. Their unique bonus is to have increased sensor range, which is a dubious bonus when bypassed by actual stealth (especially compared to the weapon range boost on Apocalypse or the raw firepower of the Retribution) and combined with reduced bow armor.

I would therefore suggest they be given three charges of 'Ping'. As it's on a charge, rather than being a free cooldown ability like an escort, these two gain utility in detection but can't fully replace a brace of scouts.

In General:

I think that costs on battleships should remain prohibitive- such that making a fleet of them is a bad plan- but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing +2 degrees of rotation speed across the board (even the orks, yes, they're getting a cost nerf anyway) and some +200 health boosts to the less successful factions. The lack of HET on most battleships is a pretty severe debuff, and only the lack of grand cruisers across most faction's lineups incentivizes battleship use.

EMPs are the best IN battleship imo, triple emp was my pre daunt build with ap ammo and assassin.

@themadtypist said in Battleships for loyalist possibly need tweek ?:

On the Oberon and Emperor:

These have no bow special weapons, and suffer from high costs. Their unique bonus is to have increased sensor range, which is a dubious bonus when bypassed by actual stealth (especially compared to the weapon range boost on Apocalypse or the raw firepower of the Retribution) and combined with reduced bow armor.

what use is a bow weapon on a retribution or apocalypse if you need to re-allign your ship for up to 30 seconds to fire it while messing up your position in relation to the enemy fleet in the process of doing so? head straight into the tyranid/orks to get that torpedo fan/Nova Cannon out? Hell no! Dead weight except for a single shot prior to the main engagement. I dont miss those on the oberon/emperor tbh.

I wouldn't underestimate the Emperor....lauch bays are the most expensive thing on any ship. And carriers with long-range backup weaponry don't really need much as speed/maneuverability as e.g. torpedo-ships. Even Exorcist is 310 points or so...without any long-range guns. The Emperor has 22.5k macro cannons (lock on) and the only babysitting the ship needs is a proper move command and launching your ordnances, meaning more time to manage your more micro-heavy ships. If you want a focus on long range and a decent amount of launchbays, there is no substitute for the Emperor. If you feel comfortable @~9k distance and prefer more speed, I'd rather get my launchbays from a Dictator or two. A bit sad that the Emperor doesnt have the double size squadrons like the Despoiler has 🙂

Oberon is a classic choice on whether you like jack-of-all-trades approaches on ships or not. I personally rather take a cheaper Mars instead of Oberon for my flagship.

edit: I like that "Scanner" for Emperor idea a bit...would be a very powerful tool to have. Boosted Sensor range was MUCH better in BFG1 after all. Let's see how things develop....

last edited by Exard3k

@exard3k well, the double sized squadron currently don't work on the despoiler soooo

An update, Starting to see Battleships to be more of what they are for this faction, an anchor to swing off. After release I think I will revisit this claim. Right now after some tweeking, I feel the Imperial Navy is okay battleship wise, and SM with a micro warp jump is pretty viable. Im starting to realize that my skills and abilities that I was using, made my fleet weaker. I think to have a well rounded fleet loyalist need distruptors bombs and range, the other two are open to selection.