Spam Spam Spam <monty python>

hi guys,

Just wondering, are you ok with the prevalent spam in list building?

xxx For instance 6x Dark Eldar Cruisers + fighter spam, 4x same Battlecruisers etc.

Some have really hard counters, and you need a specific fleet to counter them, otherwise you're dead. For instance, the DE are fast, stealthy, they protect each other with lots of turrets and can send huge amounts of durable fighters, not couting their nice dps.

I doubt that spamming the same ship up to the point limit creates a good gameplay experience, not to mention a boring fleet design.

Any ideas?

I would love a FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, that limits the number of option that you can take.

This would destroy creativity and in fact reduce fleet diversity. If X BC is too strong, adjust its cost. If you limit it to 2/fleet instead, you simply force every competitive player in that faction to fit two in their fleet.

FYI, the 3x bay drukhari LC is bugged, it's only supposed to have one bay. There's no way eldar could get a 3 bay carrier for that price normally.

last edited by Jamodon

I personally prefer to make (kind of) "balanced" fleets, you know, a carrier, a torpedo launcher etc. However it doesn't really pay off. It seems that you have to bet an all-in on one tactic: full torpedo, full boarding, full carriers etc.

last edited by Aram_theHead

@aram_thehead said in Spam Spam Spam <monty python>:

I personally prefer to make (kind of) "balanced" fleets, you know, a carrier, a torpedo launcher etc. However it doesn't really pay off. It seems that you have to bet an all-in on one tactic: full torpedo, full boarding, full carriers etc.

The problem with that is, most SPAM fleets go through balanced fleets like butter. GW systems were always like that, they were never balanced when compared to say Corvus Belli's 'Infinity'. That was made especially to sell more miniatures.

In this case, it forces players to go 'carrier heavy' or 'nova heavy', or 'tau artillery' heavy.

It's got nothing to do with creativity (unless you find 6x of the same 'creative' 😕 ).

I presume the best games are when fleets spread, try to capture points, fight it off in multiple angles with varies ships. Not just make a blob of sth and bash it against each other, while often if you could see the opposing fleet you could decide the odds.

@Aram_theHead For carriers, you basically have two options: 1. pure carriers with enough fighters to potentially get enemy defense turrets to near zero, 2. just a couple bays in your whole fleet, used mostly for fighter scouting and occasionally to kill 1-2 bay enemy fighter scouting. Having half your fleet be carriers can kind of work if you lead with a squad or two of fighters and have the rest be bombers (expecting few to none to survive the trip back), but it's just not very good unless you can also force the enemy to split up by outcapping (by using chaos LC carriers or a fast carrier fleet and a ton of escorts).

I don't think you have to go full torpedo to get good use out of them though. Torpedoes en masse CAN be used as a big spread against a whole enemy fleet (like IN meltas vs orks) but it's generally a waste of ammo and you are better off using them at the minimum arming distance (2.5k or so?), where even with enemy ships around not many will die to defense turrets before they hit.

Most factions (nids excluded) can't significantly change how much boarding they bring, especially relative to enemy troop number variation between factions. But boarding actually works well even at different power levels. If you just have a little, you can do things like board to temp crit the deck of a ship about to mutiny so it can't execute. Or temp crit engines of a ship that already burned emergency repair and is running for it. Or temp crit gens on a ship that's about to recover its shields. With a moderate amount relative to your opponent, you can perm crit something important. And with a lot you can obviously hulk.

last edited by Jamodon

SM fighter thunderhawks for example get shredded by other fighters. No idea why, but it's not that simple I believe. Carriers do a really strong job, and the ability to use fighters vs an undetected radar blip is a litte to strong?

I've had numerous games where my opponent used 6 ships with launch bays, sent a huge amount of fighters vs my Battle Barge. Despite using thounderhawks from the barge, and 4 cruisers + brace + turrets, they ripped to shreds the TH and got on the barge. Next wave started to bomb it.

Damn powerful.

last edited by Lothair88

No doubt carriers are somewhat overtuned at the moment. Ideally you should rush his main fleet and engage it asap so you can bring your superior guns and boarding to bear.

Hopefully fighters will be hit by the nerfhammer soon.

@lothair88 said in Spam Spam Spam <monty python>:

hi guys,

Just wondering, are you ok with the prevalent spam in list building?

xxx For instance 6x Dark Eldar Cruisers + fighter spam, 4x same Battlecruisers etc.

Some have really hard counters, and you need a specific fleet to counter them, otherwise you're dead. For instance, the DE are fast, stealthy, they protect each other with lots of turrets and can send huge amounts of durable fighters, not couting their nice dps.

I doubt that spamming the same ship up to the point limit creates a good gameplay experience, not to mention a boring fleet design.

Any ideas?

I would love a FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, that limits the number of option that you can take.

I've been asking for list limits since day one, I've been shot down so many times it's not funny. I do point at Total War games (which do this for balance), and still I have to done the flame proof suit.

@jamodon so let me get this straight: you're saying that a "balanced fleet" of half something and half something else can actually work? And that a half-carrier fleet can work only sometimes? And, well, yes, that every fleet technically speaking is a full-boarding fleet, because every ship has a boarding option? Is that what you mean?

@Aram_theHead Sure, as long as the ships don't rely on completely different strategies. For example, you can run 3 Carnages (18k macro CR), 2 Archerons (18k lance BC), and 5 escorts. The Carnage macros strip shields while the Archeron lances help kill dodging escorts. But you wouldn't want to run Archerons and Slaughters together, because Slaughters are high speed short range ships and Archerons are ultra long range kiters - the Slaughters would just get shredded by the enemy fleet's 9k DPS while the Archerons plink.

You can throw a Kroot ball or two in a Protector Tau cruiser build to give you a tankier front line.

You can use a Voidstalker admiral with the range upgrade to safely focus targets while a bunch of corsair escorts and LCs screen.

You can add Overlords to an Avenger IN fleet and keep them on the outside as you engage to make sure your whole fleet is firing while somewhat spread, then bring them in at full health to ram and torpedo while some Avengers dive in with them to tank and any focused ones sit back a little to recharge shields.

I'd be OK with limitations on fleet composition. BFG1 had it, and I never thought "damn this game for restricting me". Then again, I'm also fine with the open system that's in now. But the former system really only makes sense with customization back. Just being forced to take two Cruisers (for example) for no reason would be annoying.

Bringing the same ship is the most straightforward way to achieve synergy in your fleet. It's really as simple as that for a lot builds.

@bosie said in Spam Spam Spam <monty python>:

@lothair88 said in Spam Spam Spam <monty python>:

hi guys,

Just wondering, are you ok with the prevalent spam in list building?

xxx For instance 6x Dark Eldar Cruisers + fighter spam, 4x same Battlecruisers etc.

Some have really hard counters, and you need a specific fleet to counter them, otherwise you're dead. For instance, the DE are fast, stealthy, they protect each other with lots of turrets and can send huge amounts of durable fighters, not couting their nice dps.

I doubt that spamming the same ship up to the point limit creates a good gameplay experience, not to mention a boring fleet design.

Any ideas?

I would love a FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, that limits the number of option that you can take.

I've been asking for list limits since day one, I've been shot down so many times it's not funny. I do point at Total War games (which do this for balance), and still I have to done the flame proof suit.

I know the feels, been my sentiment since first closed beta, plus think it undermines the idea of increased point limits, you just end up bringing fewer large ships rather than a larger number of mid sized ships.

Ideally I think a fleet should have a single battleship as a base around which a flotilla is made, with the meat of the fleet made up of cruisers and battle cruisers.

@jamodon said in Spam Spam Spam <monty python>:

This would destroy creativity and in fact reduce fleet diversity.

Lel ...

Your are confusing creativity with optimization.

last edited by Von Krieger

I still think it's a problem. Yesterday while watching AirSickHydra's stream he got frustrated by playing vs 7x SM LC spam.

That's just bad gameplay, some factions cannot do anything vs that list and that shouldn't be a possibility in any game (for instance necrons).

I hope the devs will think of some clever way to restrict Spam lists. I believe everyone one prefers to play against varied fleet lists and not 7 of the same type just to min/max.

I'll keep saying this:

That could be avoided if you could choose your fleet AFTER you see what faction your opponent is.
It promotes having multiple fleets and playstyles per faction to deal with different matchups.

Most factions have ways of dealing with pretty much anything, as long as you know what you are LIKELY to face when you see your opponent faction, be it in the way of skills/perks, or fleets.

When you see Corsair or Asuryiani now you KNOW its gonna be a melee torp cancer build, if you could actually bring a fleet to counter that you would stop seeing ONLY that

last edited by elfyy

That's simply proposterous. You realize that would instantly create a meta A vs B. Each match almost exactly the same?

  • oh it's orks, I always use this.
  • oh it's chaos, I always use this.

If you want to kill a game then that's the way to go. Min-maxing kills the creativity.

All-rounders make interesting games. It's the same in most Tabletop games. Hell, I've seen so many systems die because of specific army lists vs specific factions. Including the original gothic. Oh you play eldar - np, I'll always field only Macro-ship, as Lances failed on a 2+ vs Holo.

@lothair88

"Oh its orks, I'll just play this then." is only valid if there is only 1 ork fleet people use. Which is not the case at all.

You forget the part when:
"Oh it's melee torp Asuryiani, I'll just use this." Then the Asuryiani player bring something off meta and beats you with it.

Min-maxing does kill creativity, and its what is happening now, in high level play fleets are always the same. Almost all chaos fleets are 6x slaughters, Tau fleets are almost always carrier fleets, Eldar fleets are always melee torp cancer and so on. Giving the ability for the player to "counter" what is predominant makes people explore other options and playstyles

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