No Change to Necrons?

@zucadragon said in No Change to Necrons?:

@imptastic That is ignoring the fact that the first major update is planned to provide more and new ships to a lot of factions in order to provide more tactical possibilities.

Tindalos is far from deserving of taking them at their word after how they managed the community on the first BFG. If and when they have those new ships out, they can be praised for fixing the Necrons. Until then, people are right to ask for an immediate solution.

It is clear that Necrons have a bad time but when you look deeper, it is not really Necrons the problem it is some global mechanics that mess the balance.
If you look at previous patch, Nid were the problem and they got costs changes. Did it solve anything? No, Nid can still insta hulk ships.
Before balancing any faction by tweaking costs, Tindalos should addressthe major flaws in mechanics that are just dumping some factions / builds.
Those problems are boarding (too easy to insta remove a ship from battle), crit (too easy to focus engines vs some factions) and stealth (4.5k range to keep ships visible is too hard vs some factions)
Only when those are solved, factions can be tweaked for balance.

@zucadragon they desperately need new ships and it may change the dynamic ill give you that but were not talking about some off shoot faction here its not the orks or the druhkari that have no SP content you talking about a faction that literally has a third of the SP content tied up with them. for them to be an after thought is ridiculous and the unwillingness of the the dev to admit and address the problem as a first order of business speaks volumes. I mean lets be frank here drukari got what 13 new ships but they couldnt spare any for the race that actually has a campaign... when you look at the facts vs the words people are absolutely justified in being upset.

@zucadragon I am not saying nothing was done, I am saying next to nothing the community was asking for was done. I just got back from a long workday, so I am very tired and may have miscounted, but I went back and counted up all the non bug, lore, please don't bully the devs (that was an actual thread), etc threads and just grabbed the balance/game suggestion ones from between alpha 1 and game release. What I got was:

Threads with issues resolved by devs: 6
Skirmish EXP threads: 4
Balance threads with all points listened to: 2

Threads kinda resolved by devs: 13
Threads that say tyranid boarding needs a nerf but need buffs elsewhere in exchange: 10
Cap Threads (they ignored the ditch the multiplayer bit): 10

Threads ignored by devs: 166
Last Stand Mode Threads: 1
Formation Movements Threads: 6
Not Ready yet threads: 4
Balance Threads with no points adressed: 31
Inertiales drives should be changed threads: 1
Wiki request Threads: 2
Eldar Threads: 4
Necron Threads: 27
Subfactions need skills threads: 2
Point Cost Threads: 1
AP threads: 1
Mutiny/torps combo threads: 1
Skirmish Progression from bfg1 Back Threads: 6
Ork Threads: 5
Corsair Threads: 3
Weapon Visibility Threads: 1
Pre-boardzilla nid threads about other never resolved issues: 9
Pricing Threads: 2
BB Thread: 1
Replay PLS threads: 5
Wrong coloration Threads: 3
Druhkari Threads: 10
Boarding General Threads: 4
SM Threads: 4
Easy Anticheat is a pointless pain: 4
Crit Threads: 2
Chaos Threads: 2
Escort Capping Threads: 1
IN Threads: 2
Tier Lists: 2
Refund Threads: 2
2v2 should be bigger threads: 4
Aesthetics threads: 1
UI is bad threads: 8
Tau threads:1
BBs=too slow threads: 1
Ram Threads: 1
Limiting #of ships per fleet threads: 2
Chase the stealth escort threads: 1
Weapon ranges threads: 3
Armor Threads: 3

Now, you will notice I highlighted the number of necron threads. That is because unless I miscounted, It is one less than double the number of threads about capping and skirmish, the two major changes have thus far made. Now, number of threads does not necessarily correlate with the amount of relevance a subject has, but it does have a rough idea about community interest in a subject, and how much they are badgering the devs. And yet curiously, they did nothing, despite there being far fewer threads about the things they did change. This also did not include to the account the threads they were also mentioned in (ex:tier list, all the balance threads, alot of the community updates) and so on. Which is why I am focused on that faction. Its the single most talked about thing on the site thread wise after general balance, and most of those get eaten into quite a bit by the subject, and they do nothing. Druhkari are another good example, which is why I use them. The site has formed a consensus on them, one the devs are ignoring, and match the number of cap threads with their own. Both of these not including the post launch threads of course, and we got a few more for both. Now, obviously they can't address everything, and trawling through all those general threads can be a pain, as can responding to the comments in you community threads, but when their is ~2x more content addressing an issue you are ignoring than the issues you are directly addressing after you promise to listen to the community, thats a problem (I speak again of solely the cron threads). The nids I picked out to put in the kinda fixed area specifically as a great example of not listening. All the threads boiled down to "boarding/carrier nids OP, nerf and buff elsewhere" and tindalos went "what, annihilate them? OK" and did so. Its why we have all these "why are nids so bad now" threads post launch. Because they aren't listening.

On the armor boost, everyone got that, which is relevant as the necrons got no other buffs so their already abyssmal DPS plummeted further, which may have actually made things worse. Now they are just hulks 100% of the time as opposed to sometimes dieing first. The corsairs still aren't viable, as the ships were untouched and thus still floating trash cans. I believe a week or two ago a thread was posted showing an eldar ship critted to death before It died to hp loss. It had nothing left, no engines no weapons nothing. Thats basically what life is like as a corsair player. I touched on the nids issue already too. Druhkari got a small change that was a glitch not a nerf and now that reload and kin crewed batteries work again they are now much more powerful than they were in beta 2, and without those they could already sit and tank a reribution without shadowfields and kill it in a straight brawl bb to bb.

I act like small things have been done because its been SIX DAMNED MONTHS and almost none of the issues that were brought up have been adressed. We complained about cap points from day one but only changed it NOW because Valrak made a video, previously they just stated they thought it was more tactical or something and were thus keeping it. No, there is no confirmation on why they made the decision but given the issue was ignored up to the making of the video... and so on.

Lets look at the changes. A button to turn off cap mode in campaign. Neat. That only takes a button to remove the scorebar and points in space, not exactly an arduous or major change, especially considering how long it took. A button to turn off another gauge. Neat. The ability to gain xp in two modes accessed from the same menu. This is probably their biggest change, and one that was more annoying than required. None of these affect the core of the game, the mechanics and gameplay of factions. You know, the stuff that actually matters. There have been minor buffs and nerfs there, but only minor ones. The biggest intentional change was the armor change, which while OK is a lazy patch on factions with massive gaping holes in them, and the nid nerf where they annihilated a faction and completely ignored all community advice to the contrary. The two other big things they did were accidents, the braking of starpulse and kin-crewed batteries, which I assume you know the details of. They haven't touched the actual mechanics of the factions at all, they all have mostly the same abilities and such from alpha day one, which is why we are still getting so many damn necron threads. Because the mechanics of the faction (and the stats, but mechnics are more important) are a broken mess they were told about from day one and have ignored from day one. Thats not what listening to the community looks like. And they flat out said its going to stay that way as the imptastic said.

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas

@nemesor-xanxas Damn, that's a lot of work you put in, I only got in here pretty late and never experienced the game. For some reason, I find myself wanting to be stubborn on this, but I can't really find any reason to explain these numbers away without going:

You're right. Which means I'm left with hopes, the hope that the devs will listen in and deal with a lot of those complaints. On my part, I'm sorry for being such a hardass about stuff, because it's clear that those who have been around here much longer than I have, have dealt with it a lot more.

I mean, I guess my own feedback had also been ignored when I posted it, never getting a response from any dev, just other players, so that just counts up to it. So yeah, erm, I concede.

@imptastic You've got a good point there, it is pretty sad when a major faction starts off with so little. I personally haven't played the necron campaign yet though, so I'm not sure how much it affects the gameplay for me personally. Still, that's a good point, like with the other guy, I wanna be stubborn about this and just hope that they fix it, the game, the parts I am playing so far I'm enjoying quite a lot, so I personally don't mind waiting for more content and hopefully, more balancing and fixes.

@zucadragon I would like to apologise a bit if I came off sounding critical of you. I am just rather frustrated with the devs not so much because of this game, but because of BFG1. I wasn't around for the bfg1 beta, but I was here early on, albiet I never made any posts, just lurked. After they dropped the first balance patch (ie the corsair nuke) they stopped really communicating, and fully abandoned the game after dropping the dlc. We know know that they were working on this, but for something like a year they would not respond to anyone beyond "we are doing a thing" (this game) which infuriated the community as it seemed like they left the game to die. And they did, they never really addressed any of the big issues like zap spam or corsiars being so bad they remain so a game later. This lead to review bombing (its in the 60s rating wise on steam) and an immense loss of trust in the devs. I believe there was a thread telling nethos to "face us if your a man" in similar words when I first made my account. And then BFG2 was revealed, and they promised they would be open with us and listen this time.

They aren't open with us. There is almost no communication from the devs to us, and the patch notes basic as they are are not complete. And this whole multipage thread is about them not listening. Which is why I am in particular so mad. This isn't just about game balance. If they wen't "oh hey we are a small studio, its real hard, don't worry we will make these changes eventually thnxs for support" I would be like "cool take your time". Instead we get

"The Necrons currently have a 46% winrate, which is quite close to the ideal 50%, but as we mentioned in the post above, we will be tweaking balance across the board as we approach launch."

This is them saying "we know better than you, so to bad" this is them saying we promised to listen to the community this time but too bad. This is them saying we lied. Because thats what this comes down to. Their word. They gave their word that they would listen this time, that they would not just ignore us and annihilate factions like the poor corsairs in bfg1, that they would take our feedback into account, and they lied. Because this isn't about game mechanics or balance or personal grievances or the fact they can't even get basic subfaction coloration or lore right. Its about the fact they went back on their words so why would I trust them with any of that?

I certainly share you hopes, but after bfg1 and the above, I just don't trust the devs. I completely accept you apology, and apologize again if I sound harsh to you. I am...not very good at communicating tone over the internet. I am glad you contested me though, as people disagreeing is what actually gets things done. It means people have to consider both sides of the argument, and we wouldn't get anywhere if people just said yes to everything I did. I have actually gotten one or two dev responses, but see above. Hopefully, someday, they will actually listen. Its just they kinda needed to a while ago.

@Beernchips necrons have a lot of deep gaping problems and I am pretty sure I have seen you in the threads that thoroughly examine them. I am not just talking about stats either (ie are worse points for points than almost any other race, no stances that help like brace, etc) but mechanically as well (inertialess drives is a mess, etc) but I am not copypasting 27+threads of issues again. I agree though that there are some major mechanical issues with the game that are preventing it from getting better. They really should not have released in the current state.

@nemesor-xanxas No need to apologize, I just reached a point where I realized I was defending this game and its developers up to an unreasonable degree.

I do have to say though, I don't particularly have an issue with trying to get every faction towards a 50% win rate, but it makes me wonder what it's based on. The difference between experienced and inexperienced players is pretty high, so if high ranking necrons manage to trash a of lot of newbie other factions, that would up that win rate percentage without it actually meaning anything.

It would be really nice to see these win rate percentages for the various gameplay ranks, say bronze, silver, gold, etc. That way you can see more clearly how a faction is doing in low level battles AND in high level battles. If the winrate is a lot lower in gold+ ranks, then that obviously still shows a big problem.

So I guess I partially agree on that one, winrates aren't everything, but they are definitely useful is used correctly. I play a lot of GW2 and though some updates mess things up at times, generally, the devs do a good job of keeping everything around 50%, though their match making really works around that as well, if you win a lot, you get put up against better players, lose a lot, you get put up against weaker players, that way you can generally win and lose in just about equal amounts.
In that game I've got around 250 matches and I've won 113 of them, so that's pretty close to the mark!

last edited by Zucadragon

@Nemesor-Xanxas The problem with balancing only factions it is that you have to do something for all faction. Boarding/lack of standard weapon damage/mobility is not a topic ONLY for Necron.
I understand that you are heavily focused on Necron but advocating for balance only for them won t change the balance of the whole game when it is some deeper changes that are required.
If, as a first step, boarding and crits are solved, Necron will be in a much better situation as well as all faction and the overall balance of the game.

@beernchips the reason I advocate for them so heavily is because they need the most work, because the mechanics, the whole concept behind their fleet are flawed. When balancing things like crit chances and such, you just need to move some numbers around, with the Necrons, you need to completely rework how the faction functions. That’s why most balance threads for chaos/nids right now are like “change this this and this number” while Necron threads are like “scrap this stance and remove this mechanic and get pyrimidal for free automatically” and so on. The ID is probably the best example of this. To balance the other factions maneuvers, people are suggesting increased/decreased cooldowns. For ID, the current suggestions are scrap it for a super AAF, give it charges, or institute a gauge. It’s current form is considered unacceptable. Even corsairs don’t have these kinds of problems, just an increased crit chance that can be fixed by changing some numbers, which again goes back to the Necron problem: that their fleet is so non-functional that it can’t be fixed by changing some numbers.

@Zucadragon i managed to grab the leaderboards right before release and the Necrons had the third least players in the top league, with merchant tau and corsairs after them. They didn’t have any players in the top fifty win wise (72 was the first and then a long way later another) but that may have changed.

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas

You can consider me picky but you don t solve specific problems before solving the global ones.
You speak of Corsairs but the Fragile trait is a problem only because crits are too powerful and it is too easy to focus engines. You change fragile trait but crits are still a problem to BBs.
Everyone is asking for specific balance for their favorite factions but it won t help the overall balance of the game because balance must be done on core before balance the factions.
It is not saying that Necrons or some factions need specific balance it is just that to reach a better overall balance, Tindalos should work on mechanics in the game before tweaking costs or numbers.

@beernchips Fair enough, I’ll conceede in that. I mentioned this earlier but this is less about me liking Necrons and more about my ever growing agitation and their inability to listen. It’s kinda concerning that they started the gaming when 2/3 parts of the single player experience is a smoking dumpster fire though.

Taking the white knight armor nd defender of Tindalos (happens sometimes)
They have shown their ability to listen when you look at launching patch notes but you can discuss the solutions they provided and the topics concerned.
Secret message to Tindalos --> What will be critical for everyone is the next coming patches, if they stick to there global winrate and point cost balance, it will only show that they have little ideas of how to solve problems

@zucadragon said in No Change to Necrons?:

@nemesor-xanxas No need to apologize, I just reached a point where I realized I was defending this game and its developers up to an unreasonable degree.

I do have to say though, I don't particularly have an issue with trying to get every faction towards a 50% win rate, but it makes me wonder what it's based on. The difference between experienced and inexperienced players is pretty high, so if high ranking necrons manage to trash a of lot of newbie other factions, that would up that win rate percentage without it actually meaning anything.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head: 50% win rate means nothing if there's hard counters in the game. In Rock-Paper-Scissors, everyone has a 50% win rate, but if you picked Rock, you're sure as hell not winning if your opponent went Paper. However, if we're balancing to a win-rate system, such a system would look perfectly balanced.

Like you pointed out, the Necrons are actually still near an even win-rate, but they're just god awful to use from Beta 2 onwards.