How to Make Necron Great Again

@lordprinceps I like the idea, they still lack a true DPS stance to replace lock on and that’s a good fix. I think one of the best ways to balance them though is the suggested morale way, high stats but instant warp out below x moral. Being weak to focusing one ship at a time is kinda just weak to how most people play at the moment.

@nemesor-xanxas
I like the sound of that, too. Basically just give them really high morale, but once they break, there's no chance to regain control, they just immediately warp out?

The other issue is potentially boarding; offensively, Necrons are decent, but defensively they're highly vulnerable due to how few ships they have, making matchups against SM and Tyanids in particular quite harsh. This may seem a bit extreme, but what if Necron ships passively regenerated crew over time to represent their systems and troops repairing over time? Just to also push in that "you can't beat them at attrition, you need to strike all at once to break them" angle.

@lordprinceps Yeah regenerating crew over time would be nice and also fitting. I think that also the resurrection orbe skill should give more than 1 troop back. About damage against single targets: instead of buffing all the weapons dps, it could be nice to specifically buff the reload stance weapon rate of fire effect for the necrons. This way you would make Necrons more effective against single targets, without buffing them too much against multiple ships at once.

@aram_thehead
Well, technically speaking, buffing the RoF increase from the Reload stance would also be buffing the DPS for that, and their DPS is a bit low at its base anyways. I personally think a hypothetical stance giving Lightning Arcs some weak AP would be better than a raw DPS increase via stance, especially since it fits in with their fluff from the original rulebook:

"Stored solar energy is released as a forest of living energy tendrils which envelop targets probing for weaknesses."

Sounds like some armor-piercing space lightning to me!

@lordprinceps yeah that’s basically how the morale balance would work. I agree on the regenerating crew thing, though they may need a skill too. As it is, a hulled ship is a dead ship, as if you re crew if they will just lightning strike you again a hulk it. They will have more ships than you to, and so could keep it up forever. At least other factions have shields to let them cycle the vessel...

@Aram_theHead yeah the orb is pretty useless right now. Not as useless as the immune to asteroids skill though, that one should really be made a free passive, it was in TT after all and no one is going to buy it.

@lordprinceps said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

@nemesor-xanxas
I like the sound of that, too. Basically just give them really high morale, but once they break, there's no chance to regain control, they just immediately warp out?

The other issue is potentially boarding; offensively, Necrons are decent, but defensively they're highly vulnerable due to how few ships they have, making matchups against SM and Tyanids in particular quite harsh. This may seem a bit extreme, but what if Necron ships passively regenerated crew over time to represent their systems and troops repairing over time? Just to also push in that "you can't beat them at attrition, you need to strike all at once to break them" angle.

First of all the passive regen sounds usefull, could work like hull cauterisation, Regenerate troops but lower the maximum number. This would be okay with fluff as sometimes warriors get heavily damaged and Phase out, Ending up on their tomb world for repairs.

As counter to boarding, crons just need better fighter craft. With what they go they can not screen properly against ordnance. The wings are way to small and to weak. Chaos for example can assign a 5 bays flight of fighters to an escort and screen against most if not all bombers/Torpedos. Necron wings will lose most if not all fights even with escort in brace stance support.

@aram_thehead

@aram_thehead said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

@SBUN

(Active) target any friendly ship to create a line of damaging energy beam
between them.

isn't this already in the game? Lightning link ability.

Yes. But only on flagship. I really would like to see it on more ships.
This allow us to buff necron damage without buffing the raw stats.
TBH. I want game 1 customization back.

@sbun Lightning link on every ship sounds like too much micro managment to be effective in my opinion. But why would you want more damage without simply buffing the stats?

@aram_thehead
To make every faction unique. If we just buff their weapon stats to be comparable to other, then the necron just turn into a reskin. Every faction should have their unique style, for the necron i suggest it should be positioning and gimmicky skills.

@aram_thehead said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

@alandauron I like this idea of a teleport with charges! 3 charges of teleport would allow necrons to dodge, but if the player uses all of the charges very quickly, he will still be punished by abilities, which is good. One thing though: If each of these 3 charges allowed necrons to teleport to the same distance that they can teleport to now (which is 9k), then necrons could potentially instantly travel 27k. In the lore it would be ok, but balance-wise it would not in my opinion. They still need a little bit more mobility, so I'd say that each of these charges should allow something like a 4k teleport.

I would agree that if the stack is increased to 3 that some other balancing would be needed that's why I stated 2-3 depending on other changes that might happen over the course of balancing. Currently 2, at the distance they can teleport, would be a great way to escape after doing some damage. There could even be higher/lower stacks on different types of ships, each with varying distance.

Now, Necrons in lore would just cruise in and destroy everything around them but we've acknowledged we can't use Necrons from lore already. Based off their current setup they look more like a hit and run/repair style faction yet they have no way to escape in order for their hull repair to have any real advantage, especially when shields can recharge and provide much needed relief at a vital point.

My suggestion for stacking charges is to use them for a quick escape, not necessarily for dodging abilities, so you would want to also increase the CD length by 15+ seconds to keep Necron players from being able to effectively use it for dodging. Sure you still could, but then you might not be able to disengage from a heavy barrage of broadsides because your next charge would be further away.

What I would like to see to start with:
Cairn: 2 charges; 7.5k distance; increased CD by 30 secs
Scythe: 2 charges; 7.5k distance; increased CD by 15 secs
LCs: 3 charges; 6k distance; increased CD by 30 secs
Escorts: 2 charges; 9k distance; increased CD by 30 secs

This, I feel, would be a good place to start with and then could be balanced moving forward. Lore put aside completely of course, this would allow the big guy(Cairn) to disengage if it looks as if the fight is not going to go well(crew is disappearing) but with the smaller teleport distance and longer CD other factions that are faster can still catch up fast enough to keep the Cairn engaged. Scythe would be slightly harder to keep up with but it still wouldn't be effective at dodging. LCs would be more useful for dodging charges and abilities for the first part of a fight but if they aren't careful would quickly run out of charges, yet with 3 charges they could also disengage even with the shorter distance. Escorts would maintain the role of scouts and be able to GTFO quickly if they find themselves in a bad spot but would take longer to regain charges.

Anyway, this is all just wishful thinking but maybe the devs will see this and consider it. I think making the ID stack and playing with CD and distance would ultimately fix the Necrons completely as the rest of their build would still be effective with this change/tweak without making them even more powerful with higher DPS, etc.

@alandauron

My suggestion for stacking charges is to use them for a quick escape, not necessarily for dodging abilities, so you would want to also increase the CD length by 15+ seconds to keep Necron players from being able to effectively use it for dodging.

If your goal is simply to be able to disengage from a bad situation, you could still wait 70-90 seconds to have your next teleport just like now. Why would you use such a complicated system of charges if you don't want to use it to dodge? That's one of the issues that necron have that no other faction has: inability to dodge.

last edited by Aram_theHead

@aram_thehead currently the Necron can't disengage. That one teleport doesn't get you far enough away due to how slow the ships are so you never actually get to disengage. Stacking the jump(and tweaking distance/CD) gives slightly more distance which could lead to different builds rather than requiring specific builds to be effective. A player could use it for dodge and take abilities that help them put out more DPS, sure. They could also take "silent" builds that allow them to disengage and vanish from their opponent's radar.

Currently there is only 1 way to build Necrons effectively, from what I have experienced and heard from others, which leads to much of the feeling that they are not a good faction. Even that one method is less effective than builds you can create with other factions. I personally tried to think of a way to allow the other strengths of the Necrons to be more effective but you are right that players could also use it for dodging with tankier fleet builds.

You don t need this kind of charge mechanic. ALmost all factions have 2 different special manouevres, Necron could use the same.
1 long range TP with high CD, 1 short range reposition with low CD

@beernchips said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

You don t need this kind of charge mechanic. ALmost all factions have 2 different special manouevres, Necron could use the same.
1 long range TP with high CD, 1 short range reposition with low CD

I don't know if I like this idea with the current Necron build though. This would make them much more powerful to have 2 different maneuvers each with a separate CD, would be much easier to stagger them effectively. With 1 stackable maneuver you can easily use up your "dodge" which prevents you from being able to escape. It becomes an either or. If you give 2 different CDs there would have to be several other changes to how the Necrons currently work.

I'm currently set at 7th highest on Necrons (would be higher but been doing 2v2s with people who are pretty bad)and have to say 90% of the issues I see brought up that I see have no validity in my opinion but this is just me.
So let's start with no shields- well most of my builds on other races either ignore shields with ramming, torps, aircraft or boarding. in short shield do not help with these and the regen is pretty nice.

DAMAGE
poor dps- I am not sure where people are pulling this one from in all honesty but let's compare some battleship dps just to get a good idea Imperial retribution (there best brawl battleship) 1 broadside has 18 dps + an extra 15dps if u get both sides firing but this will not be focused on 1 target (we will get to the torps in a min)
now the cairn has 26 dps now u might point out that when you compare both broadsides of the retribution that's not impressive well wrong this 26dps is 100% hit chance (pretty big deal) and when using lighting arc dispersal you add an extra 10dps per enemy ship in 9k (this can stack up to ridiculous numbers) this damage can be augmented by an extra 10dps from scarab swarm which is probably one of the best skills to take (along with an extra 2hp regen aoe) and now going back to torps well star pulse (also gives extra damage) can counter that easily even with 2 cairns which is often what I take.
now I am sure someone is gonna bring up the dark Eldar obsidian rose 50 dps which is all fontal damage well they can't keep that on you as if they face tank u jump on their face and take out engines and then kill them as their armour is naff (in sort they cannot reliably/safely keep that damage on you ) (dark eldar are my favourite faction to fight)

Additional strategy (works against all but space marine, will do on nids but need to take flagship out) this is 2 cairns ur flag with nightmare shroud (3 moral damage within identification range per second whilst in reload) + ancestral terror which with 2 cairns gives 400 moral loss which allows you to focus the enemy flagship and once that's down you can quickly route the enemy fleet especial works.

Torp and carrier counter
torp and carrier spam well 9/10 times good use of pulse and smart use of sythes can solve this issue then when in range jump on their face (don't pulse against fighters unless its all they can send in its area then when they send bombers to launch fighters which then beat any numbers on bombers etc, torps yea pulse for them and if you are close to the enemy especially Eldar wait till they bost or fire torps then jump on them target engines and board em).

Skills/upgrades to take
skills: Pyramidal is a must and i have discussed in another post how this should just come with the flagship as its to vital (be careful when you use this i only use it when i need to get engines for a jump or a skill requires a component and i know its off cooldown), Scarabs 4.5k radius of 10dps and 2 regen over 45 seconds what's not to love. (whist lighting link interests me its not good vs eldar and can be hard to set up scarb is the better general use.
upgrades: tesseract just like pyramidal is the must as you're stance are vital and it mean you dont need to use pyramidal on deck destroyed, next you have choices nightmare is great for the anti-moral strat but structural analysis basically is a free lock on that stacks with ark dispersal which analytes eldar engines when used right.

K this post is getting long so i will see how you all take this but i honestly dont think necrons are bad they just need a aggressive yet patient play style by waiting for the right opportunity and understanding the cap game (often their are 3 points relatively close chose these to fight over) (also escorts are important and no where near as bad as people say).

@sn1percat the cairn is actually an excellent example. Generally, you can fit 2 cairns into a fleet, and 4 IN/chaos BBs. Now, ignoring the fact the retribution is not the most efficient ship point for point DPS wise or all the health that many BBs bring or the crit stance they have or that they have brace or etc, thats a raw DPS of 72 vs a dps of 52, which is of course only counting one broadside. If they manage to drive down the middle of the two cairns thats 144 dps, same if they are aiming at the escorts you can afford with the leftover points. And they aren't exactly the highest damage dealers fleet wise. Anyways, the reason that the OR is brought us so much is that they have so much DPS math says that if they lose shadowfield and facetank v aforementioned retributions, they'll kill it much faster than the other way around because DPS and win. This is not how it should go for a ship meant to rely on kiting and stealth.

@sn1percat Agreed, I find Necrons quite strong and fun to play. They really have no answer to well played nova cannon spam and to SM boarding cheese but otherwise, they're quite competitive. They have so much alpha strike/burst potential coupled with element of surprise plus they're super tanky.

@nemesor-xanxas said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

4 IN/chaos BBs. Now, ignoring the fact the retribution is not the most efficient ship point for point DPS wise or all the health that many BBs bring or the crit

Yea i was using the ret as a example because if you want to go with the chaos desolator for 4 bbs it has 15 on target 12 on the other broadside and if you are playing against 2 cairns you will not get both broadsides however against 4bbs i can either break moral or go for dispersal which has the potential fo 26dps on main target + 30dps on the others + 10 dps on all from scarbs if they all get close which for torps they will want to. where are you getting the 72dps or 144dps i know of no ship that can achieve this damage level even with stances which i am not including asides from lighting arc as its pretty much the same all around for that??

@ekko_tek
a good sm boarder I will agree but they have to be good (however this is something that is not limited to Necrons as Eldar, imps, chaos and even orks can have this issue). Novas tough but winnable to get the 6 nova ships means no escorts my build has 2 if i can 1/2 their fleet and damage 1 badly i can win on caps just have to watch for admech rad storm otherwise chose ur jumps well and make sure they can't escape once in close but its tough but that's the fun of asymmetric games

@sn1percat 72dps is two cairns worth of points in retribution’s, 144 is counting both broadsides. My point was that the cairn costs half a fleet which is why its DPS is bad, because the enemy can easy bring 2x the number of ships which means much higher enemy DPS. Scarabs are nice and all, but beyond the fact it’s an admiral skill which means you have to consider the enemy ships Admiral skills and such if you want anactual DPS comp with them, they require you to get close, where the enemies guns get stronger and AP munitions become relevant.