How to Make Necron Great Again

@Nemesor-Xanxas
retribution plasma man is not 144dps with both broadsides lets break it down 6cros =(((4 attacks X 15 damage)/12 second reload)x6 batteries =30 dps ( it think you have done the multiplication wrong I have gone through mulitple times to be sure its important to work out dps per battery and then X by the number of battery's 1 battery has the dps of 5 (4 shots x 15 damage =60 damage/ 12 second reload= 5dps per battery X by 6 batteries 30dps from macros (15dps per side) + 3 lances with 12 damage and 12 seconds reload = +3 dps to the main target). this means the total dps excluding torps retribution can output is 33 and you can, in theory, take 3 of them ( with some points remaining) making the 3= 99dps. double cairn has a dps of 52

however i feel you are missing a real big point that getting both broadsides to fire on more than one ships is very hard and often relies on
A: the enemy having a very large fleet which the necrons with this build they will not have and if you are against a spam fleet ark dispersals is so much more effective.
B: the enemy is dumb and puts an escort on the other side of a battleship so it gets shot to pieces, sorry by my comment with this although harsh is position your fleet smarter
C: they ram between the cairns that are right next to each other, well have fun with double terror or me nocking your engines out tping behind u have shooting u to pieces
In short i am trying to get the point across that you cannot take the full dps of a broud side ship at face value as its rare to get the full use against a smart player also we have not factored in miss chance for the macros with a minimum of 20% of the macro damage deducted at close range and yea i have not taken into account torps because if you play well they will not be a major concern. in terms of ap values of weapons to a degree yes but balance that against the 100% hit of the Necrons and pretty nice crit chances especially with the 100% increase upgrade X disperse lighting ark can make you a crit machine + terror mechanics makes u pretty tough allowing you to negate number but like alot of factions you have to pick the fight for when it suits you.

There are some builds that need addressing ie 3x obsidion rose on the dark Eldar (the dps is unreal) or the boarding party's of the space marines asides from that i have been able to deal with pretty much anything even nids.
I would be happy to go against pretty much any fleet that you would like yo put up asides from the 2 i just mentioned (and Necron vs Necron as its a very boring mirror match but easily winnable with terror build)
also set cairns and the BC to frontal there is no reason for them to broadside all weapons can fire front on XD

last edited by Sn1percat

@sn1percat said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

@Nemesor-Xanxas
retribution plasma man is not 144dps with both broadsides lets break it down 6cros =(((4 attacks X 15 damage)/12 second reload)x6 batteries =30 dps ( it think you have done the multiplication wrong I have gone through mulitple times to be sure its important to work out dps per battery and then X by the number of battery's 1 battery has the dps of 5 (4 shots x 15 damage =60 damage/ 12 second reload= 5dps per battery X by 6 batteries 30dps from macros (15dps per side) + 3 lances with 12 damage and 12 seconds reload = +3 dps to the main target). this means the total dps excluding torps retribution can output is 33 and you can, in theory, take 3 of them ( with some points remaining) making the 3= 99dps. double cairn has a dps of 52

however i feel you are missing a real big point that getting both broadsides to fire on more than one ships is very hard and often relies on
A: the enemy having a very large fleet which the necrons with this build they will not have and if you are against a spam fleet ark dispersals is so much more effective.
B: the enemy is dumb and puts an escort on the other side of a battleship so it gets shot to pieces, sorry by my comment with this although harsh is position your fleet smarter
C: they ram between the cairns that are right next to each other, well have fun with double terror or me nocking your engines out tping behind u have shooting u to pieces
In short i am trying to get the point across that you cannot take the full dps of a broud side ship at face value as its rare to get the full use against a smart player also we have not factored in miss chance for the macros with a minimum of 20% of the macro damage deducted at close range and yea i have not taken into account torps because if you play well they will not be a major concern. in terms of ap values of weapons to a degree yes but balance that against the 100% hit of the Necrons and pretty nice crit chances especially with the 100% increase upgrade X disperse lighting ark can make you a crit machine + terror mechanics makes u pretty tough allowing you to negate number but like alot of factions you have to pick the fight for when it suits you.

There are some builds that need addressing ie 3x obsidion rose on the dark Eldar (the dps is unreal) or the boarding party's of the space marines asides from that i have been able to deal with pretty much anything even nids.
I would be happy to go against pretty much any fleet that you would like yo put up asides from the 2 i just mentioned (and Necron vs Necron as its a very boring mirror match but easily winnable with terror build)
also set cairns and the BC to frontal there is no reason for them to broadside all weapons can fire front on XD

I was using you math when you told me the DPS was 18 per broadside. That over 4 retribution’s, how many you get for 2 cairns worth of points, aka x4, is 72. If both broadsides are considered, that’s another x2, which brings us to 144. Maybe the points costs went up since last I checked, but when I did the retribution’s were 270 something. Even assuming they went up to 300, that’s still 4 rets. You seem to have done the work for three retribution’s, but didn’t calculate how much damage can be put out in that scenario without considering the other side of macros, which is what you want to do. While it is pretty easy to use those macros, just drive in between the ships of the enemy like you are supposed to lorewise, removing that broadside still gives you more than the cairns DPS. Not much more, but still more, and with more boarding and health and turrets and so on. Other fleets, like chaos fleets, still seem to field 4 BBs fine, but I guess I’ll check points again tommorrow. Necrons need significantly higher DPS than an enemy fleet because due to being outnumbered all other fleets will have higher health totals than a Necron fleet, be more resistant to crits, and regenerate faster even taking armor into consideration, and many other things.

@sn1percat I agree with your analysis of the Necrons for the most part, however I think that you are missing some things. The simple fact that some skills and upgrades are a must-pick puts Necrons at a disadvantage to other factions, upgrades should be bonuses, not patches for holes. The immunity to deck destruction can be justified since everyone has that same upgrade. Then Necrons have no way to deal with morale, which is another thing that everyone else can do and they can't. And finally mobility. They can't Dodge. They simply can't. All they have is a jump and then that's it, they're screwed. Other factions can try to use their gauge wisely to avoid novas and torps, this option is completely removed for the Necrons.

last edited by Aram_theHead

@Alandauron then to keep the cd management of TP, if you use inertialess for les than 4.5k range, you have a reduced CD before next use is available

@beernchips that doesn’t help any though, because the whole issue is people force you to jump and then throw lethal amounts of skills and such at you and you can’t dodge, like the oft cursed nova spam. They need to be able to repeatedly dodge like everyone else or s they just die to these things.

@nemesor-xanxas said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

t over 4 retribution’s, how many you get for 2 cairns worth of points,

The 18dps is only the side which is targeting (the top mounted lascannons make it 18dps where as the normal is 15dps) also you cant get 4 retributions in a fleet as they are 306 points so you will need to take a smaller fleet and yea I have considered both if you read through as 1 broadsided has 15dps X 2 =30dps and the top 3 lance cannons add an extra 3dps the targeted side giving a full firepower of 33dps I have seen very few people who have managed to get that full dps and its often due to the enemy making massive errors

man my build for Necrons is gonna be absurd if the buffs you want come in I find them already taking with even the 6 avenger GC build unable to put out substantial dps against 2 Cairns to bring them down before their fleet is destroyed or routed which is interesting had the 6 avenger build has some of the highest dps potentials. necrons also have amazing armour values with even the escorts having battleships armour this has allowed me to use escorts well against of other escorts simply by ramming them.

In terms of skills that force us to jump only massed novas or vortex abiltys like rad storm will actually make me jump all others, i am happy to take on the chin.
as I said before I am happy to go against pretty much any fleet as necrons

I'm the 5th ranking necron and has been cheesing it wirh double carin plus 4 escorts last night

As sniper cat says it does output a surprising amount of AOE dps, if u use the double crit on scanned target and 3+ target with lightning disperal. So i will retract my assesment that the Carin is useless.

But i feel it has only been working against lower skilled player who simply disrespect the carin. (All my wins gave very little increase to my rank bar, i'm stuck at near the top of epic) and in a counter meta way that ppl will need to bring lighter mobile ships to counter the likes of eldar. Because necron ships are usually so vulnerable to focus fire critting, many player take the carin bait and try to rush them down regardless of cover provided by clouds and astroids. Giving your double carin the perfect engagement and have thier ship terror route before they know what's going on. If ppl deal with double carin like they deal with 4BB build of other race with some forethought of their teleport range. ( Ie kite and snipe escort first) they are going to demolish me.

Honestly, i've never been a good rts player with good micro but half the players i face doesnt do too much more than putting all their ships in one tight ball and send 2 escort out to cap. Anytime i face someone who actually has a sensible mix of fleet, stagger their fleet semi competently and actually play with the cover and capture points on the map(or play one of the OP fotm, currently SM LC spam/DE ship erasers), i have a very hard time with any fleet build.

TLDR: Necron is very reliant on opponent making mistakes.

last edited by Empirecitizen

@empirecitizen said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

en working against lower skilled player who simply disrespect the carin. (All my wins gave very little increase to my rank bar, i'm stuck at near the top of epic) and in a counter meta way that ppl will need to bring light

to be fair it gets harder and slower to increase ranks at this stage i am finding this for all a factions, give the terror build a try as well its pretty good as long as its not against sm.
I generally look for their escorts once i deal with them the cairns can deal with the main fleet whilst escorts scout and cap i find if they go fast light cruisers i will still catch them every now and again and witle their fleet down whilst they are unable to deal substantial damage to me.

I have had people try smart tricks against me but most of the time i only need 1 decent jump to wipe most of their fleet and crit their engines making them as good as dead. taking out escorts is essential to avoid being kited as without them they will often need to come close to revel you with a main ship.
I generally play the cap points making sure their escorts are taken out and even if the cairns lose they inflict so much damage that they can't win the cap.
I will argue that most of my builds are designed to take advantage of mistakes even with my craft eldar as even a great player will make a few mistakes in a game (forgetting about a ship for a few seconds, splitting forces a tad to much, being to greedy with caps or getting a tad to close)

@aram_thehead said in How to Make Necron Great Again:

Then Necrons have no way to deal with morale, which is another thing that everyone else can do and they can't.

Iron will is one of their core traits. Every ship has a 50% reduction in rate of morale loss. This is why they don't have (or have as much need for) a rally command. Plus Necrons have abilities and upgrades to increase morale loss of their opponent.

@sn1percat You do admit, though, that some of the skills are "essential" to be competitive at all. I'm curious about your thoughts in regards to stacking ID as I agree with just about everything in your assessment but still think that Necrons could use some work for the simple fact that Pyramidal and Scarabs are "must-have". That's also why I suggested the change I did so that in the future we don't see DPS or Speed buffs that result in Necrons being one of the 2-3 optimal builds.

So, what's your thoughts on ID charge stacking?

I play necron as main race. I am top 8 as necron and top 100 total. my feeling is that necrons are an incomplete race. Few ships, few skills ... too low a variety. moreover, the obligation to play certain stretches and skills in the long run makes them boring.

@alandauron in terms of skills yeap I have said in other posts that pyramidal should just be a flagship ability as its a must take. I would not say scarbs are a must as lighting link can do great damage and even thunderbolt is decent but its defiantly my favourite. I am generally hesitant to say buff and nerf things as knee jerk reactions from the devs trying to keep the vocal minority of a community happy really hurt the multiplay of game 1 and it took a long time to recover.
right now i kinda like the mobility being slow as the teleport although a long cooldown is very effective and i am not sure how other factions would cope with even better mobility as you also have mass recall as a potential so i am not realy sure about jump charges i think a small reduction of maybe 10 seconds to jump and pulse would be good.
i would like to see maybe a change to the cruiser and make its weapons frontal fire like the bc and battleships as that is currently what stops me from using that and the BCs price means i would rather have 2 cairns .

However necrons are not the only ones with essential skills be it imperials microjump and tarrow, orks waggghhh etc

@sn1percat all fair points that I can't outright disagree with and with my limited availability I haven't noticed shortcomings/essential skills for other factions. I know there are always the most effective builds in games such as this but it feels different with Necrons because without Pyrmidal things can get hairy extremely quickly for them and other options just don't work at all without it.

I say that Scarabs is a must have because it is by far the easiest to use and most versatile. Lightning Link does a ton more damage and is a great skill but, short of using it on a single big ship, it's fairly difficult to position to use the skill effectively. Thunderbolt is decent, as you said, but Scarabs is just plain better when there's more than one ship in range.

I still can't help but feel that a straight reduction in CD for ID would be a bigger buff than my suggestion but it is the easier method of balance and the most likely change to happen given the history of the devs. Thanks for the thoughts!

@alandauron yea i have discussed my opinion of pyrmidal and I think it lines with yours in terms of scarabs i compare it to eldar maelstrom or the admech radstorm in terms of its almost always taken.
but fair if they are to be buffed it needs to be very minor that's why i suggested a slight shortening of a cooldown rather than a completely new ability.