We'll run CCL 22 and 23 with 2 minutes. We plan to revert back to 3 minutes for CCL 24 unless the data indicates overwhelmingly that 2 minutes is the optimal configuration. Conversely if CCL 22 indicates that 2 minutes has a significant negative effect we'll revert back to 3 minutes in CCL 23 and end the trial early. Once the trial is completed we'll analyse the data to see if future CCL seasons will be 2 or 3 minutes.

At the end of the trial we'll compare with CCL 18 and 20: 3 minute baseline

We have a specific set of criteria to make our decision. The criteria will be published at the end of the trial.

During the trial COL will be 3 minutes.

@geryon said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

We have a specific set of criteria to make our decision. The criteria will be published at the end of the trial.

Oooh... secret criteria to be announced at a later date. Seems legit.

Dear Admins, if I may suggest. Is it possible to make it 2minute standard but before match both coaches are asked if they want to switch to 3min turn. If 1 decides yes it will be 3min turn. It will help to keep players that play Vampires, Ogres and other more complicated teams. Certain teams need much more planning than others.

Please consider. Thanks

I don't think such options exist.

@dode74

It would have kept both sides happy. I believe this will have an effect on the variety of teams. From my end for example I find it I need more time when playing Elf teams rather than bashing teams so automatically it will be more probable that I will be playing bash teams

I don't disagree. I wanted far more options available on release but they were not forthcoming. I also did not want 2 min turns, but it's not my train set.

Yeah I understand. CCL was a very good place for me to play anytime BB since I have a very busy life. I will try to keep up at 2min but probably I will have to drop as well.

Well we see how it goes.

Shame this change has been initiated without a shred of clear evidence there is a problem with 3 minutes in the first place. Even justifying the test period of 2 (!!!) seasons as a way to "gather data" would be beyond ridiculous when COL has already been playing at 2 minutes for ages. And especially when the criteria is not made public and can be manipulated to suit whatever the organizers want. This all means at least one less player here for CCL I am afraid.

@viajero said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

the criteria is not made public and can be manipulated to suit whatever the organizers want

It won't be. I'm aware of the criteria and am against the change. There will be no variation away from those by the admin team. That said, if people have ideas for suitable metrics then please be forthcoming.

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

@viajero said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

the criteria is not made public and can be manipulated to suit whatever the organizers want

It won't be. I'm aware of the criteria and am against the change. There will be no variation away from those by the admin team. That said, if people have ideas for suitable metrics then please be forthcoming.

Why would I want to propose any metric to measure a change that has no justification at all to begin with?

COL has been running at 2 minutes for ages. If you wanted 2 min related data you need to look no further. Use COL as your lab if you want and play with it, then show us what you find. But disrupting CCL without any documented evidence to justify it is probably not the right approach.

Why would I want to propose any metric to measure a change that has no justification at all to begin with?

Because the trial is happening and you want it to change back. You want there to be more evidence for the 2 min option than for the 3 min option. I'm not arguing for the reasons for making the change, I am arguing for the reasons to say "3 minutes is better than 2". 3 minutes is the default, but if there are better grounds for going to 2 minutes than staying at 3 then that is the direction the admins will take it.

COL is not a good "lab". People compared console with PC instead to show that the max match length is shorter.

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

COL is not a good "lab".

Why not?

Longer-lived teams, different reasons to play (e.g. no playoff), more concessions (and therefore noise - ~22% vs ~45% COL vs CCL last I looked), fewer AFKs (because people just concede).

But hey, if you think there is something useful you can mention from the data available in COL then please, let the admins know!

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

Longer-lived teams, different reasons to play (e.g. no playoff), more concessions (and therefore noise - ~22% vs ~45% COL vs CCL last I looked), fewer AFKs (because people just concede).

But hey, if you think there is something useful you can mention from the data available in COL then please, let the admins know!

None of those issues you mention seem particularly insurmountable. You can replicate ccl structure in col including play offs and concession admin etc. In other words instead of spending (wasting?) the admin team time in disrupting ccl, spend your time rather in col, which already has a 2 min structure, so to get some meaningful data out of it. And then we talk.

So you think the admin team are going to effectively double their workload rather than trialling the change in an existing league? Good luck with that.

(Just a reminder, I'm not an admin)

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

So you think the admin team are going to effectively double their workload rather than trialling the change in an existing league? Good luck with that.

(Just a reminder, I'm not an admin)

Well I sincerely hope that they do not intend to disrupt a large number of players in ccl without themselves being disrupted at all in the process.

In both cases admins are going to have to spend/waste additional time. Much better employed in extracting data from col which already runs at 2 min than disrupting ccl without proper justification imho.

(Who are the admins actually btw?)

Again, there are numerous differences between CCL and COL which suggest it's not a sound environment to gather suitable data from. Hence console was used for comparison.

Admins are listed in the rules thread.

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

Again, there are numerous differences between CCL and COL which suggest it's not a sound environment to gather suitable data from.

Again, which ones?

I already mentioned them. That you consider them "not insurmountable" or that the admin team should double their workload is neither here nor there.

@dode74 said in CCL 22 and 23 will trial 2 minute turns.:

I already mentioned them. That you consider them "not insurmountable" or that the admin team should double their workload is neither here nor there.

I am not sure yet why we do have to suffer the disruption of the CCL the admin team / you propose. Admins/you have not shown any solid data based evidence that there may be a problem at all with the 3 minutes timer to begin with.

The very least one can expect is that they/you spend a reasonable amount of time doing a reasonable amount of due diligence and invest reasonable time in justifying a test of any kind in CCL (including for example using COL, which already runs at 2 min, as a lab). As opposed to disrupting a large number of players while they/you twiddle their thumbs by simply changing a timer and "collecting data" to "undisclosed metrics" for 2 seasons, just to see what happens.