eldar torpedos

while 18.000 range sniper builds are not possible anymore for DE with their new stance (still possible for corsairs), the changes ignore the more pressing problem of insane level of burst damage eldar torpedo boats currently have compared to their price.

the craftworld torpedo cruisers have 8x90 burst damage at the moment for only 220/228 points. DE have 6x90 for 207 points and only the corsairs have more reasonable numbers with 4x90 for 171 points (the corsair LC with 4 tubes lacks the macros to be viable). all these ships have 24-28dps macros too.

eldar torpedos ignore armor and have a higher dodge, it does not take much experience to kill 1-2 ships per fleet-wide charge. there are not many counter options. if you try to mass turrets, you are wide open for maelstroms/dark matter cannon. if you go heavy on ordnance, you lack the dps/hull per fleet to keep up with the eldar macro damage output. both option work not very well against point-blank torpedos anyway. escort swarms can avoid the torpedos, but have a host of other problems.

like I wrote before, a price increase per torpedo tube should be considered.

I would prefer Eldar torpedoes to not count armor as 0 but as 25 or 33 than increase point costs.
Also I don t play IN a lot but does the IN torps counting armor as 50 feels OK or subpar?

Counting armor as 25 or 33 is pretty inconsistent with everything else in the game. It makes more sense to increase their cost or reduce the number of torps fired.

Changing the cost of ship won t help, you will eventually take less LC or escorts but you will keep as many as 8 torps cruiser as you can so it is clearly a change of damage output that is needed.
Either less damage or less torp fired or less HP on torps they are shot down easier even at close range

it makes a big difference if for example CW can take five or four torpedo cruisers in a 1200 points list. it is less macro dps, less boarding, troops, hull, crit slots on the table. something like 3-5 points per tube may be enough to rein them in.

less torps / less hp for torps / less damage per torp is a more minor nerf, if you don't slash the burst damage enormously. we are talking about 3600 burst dmg for 5 CW and 2700 burst dmg for 5 DE cruisers, which already have 130-140 macro dps and 6000 hull (in case of CW 6000 holo-field hull).

last edited by Fosil

reduce their torp hp from 4 to 3
its still 6hp after the dodge, still bad but not as bad as 8hp torps
atleast to start, probably needs more but a first step
eldar are slippery but their stuff is fragile so lower hp on the torps makes sense

@Ashardalon one 15 turret BB does at average 0,875 hp damage per second to an eldar torpedo. your proposal means it takes 3,4 seconds to kill one torpedo instead of 4,6 seconds. I cannot see how that makes any difference against an eight torpedo spread fired from close range.

last edited by Fosil

its a start, much more is needed but its a start i would like

The HP isn't the issue. If we reduce the HP to a meaningful value when torps are launched at close range, they will be entirely useless at all other ranges.

The problem is the damage. Fewer torps, more expensive torps, or less damage per torp--all of these help solve the problem.

I think the CWE cruisers should be nerfed from 8 to 4 torpedoes per ship. It's ridiculous that ships with that much armor and speed should get the cheapest torpedoes in game. The speed and maneuverability of eldar ships already make landing torpedo shots incredibly easy, they don't need 8 of them. Imagine an Imperial Retribution battleship with the speed and maneuverability of of an eldar ship with vauls maneuver all at the cost of only 200 points. That's what CWE is right now.

last edited by CHIN00K

8 -> 6 Torps is a great way to decrease their burst potential.

There is nothing outside of misplay that can stop an Eldar player from delivering torps where he wants it.

last edited by LKHERO

I think that it bears keeping in mind that the whole purpose of torpedoes is massive burst damage. The tradeoff is that they are unguided and relatively slow, and can thus be easily dodged.

Maybe torpedoes could be slowed down instead of having their damage reduced.

Close range torpedo hits are pretty risky manoeuvers to pull off, and I think that they as a specific case are not especially OP IMO. There's substantial risk involved in these manoeuvers, and the player on the receiving end also has the opportunity to get out of the way, since the torpedoes only go in a straight line at a relatively slow speed.

Apart from the Aeldari; I can say that the IN torpedoes feel decidedly underwhelming and not worth the effort you'd put into actually getting the ships into position. Maybe they should count armour as 25% or 33%.

@cool_lad An Aeldari ship can deliver torpedoes package whenener he wants, slowing the speed of them won t change anything because 90% of the time you launch torpedoes when you are the closest range possible to ensure the target can t dodge them with manœuvres.
With the limited ammo, you don t use torps anymore as an area interdiction tool by sending torpedoes walls across the map to force the enemy to move. (Well you can do it with IN fire torps because those are useless at close range)

@Beernchips you could just increase the arming distance then; that prevents the torpedoes from being used at knife fight ranges entirely, since that way the minimum engagement distance for those weapons can be increased easily.

it is not very hard to understand why CW overperform. holofields effectively double their hull points and halves the amount of crits they receive. the 1200 hull cruiser is effectively a 2400 hull cruiser with a 0,5 base crit reduction until it suffers two generator crits in 90 seconds. they have the highest macro dps per points (with DE) and on top of that they have this insane torpedo burst damage.

lets compare them to the slaughter slaneesh build: you have 105 fleet wide dps + 60 dps for the second broadside / 3000 shield / 10.800 hull and a 10 second stun, which does in the best case 735 hull damage to a single target and 420 hull damage to a 2nd target (the unlikely case that you have everything on reload at zero distance with AP ammo and all your cruisers can broadside a 2nd stunned ship). you can increase that damage potential by chain-ramming (I don't have the current ramming damage formula) and by dropping a plasma bomb on the stunned ship(s) for additional 400 hull damage. CD for the stun is 3min, so it is a one-shot weapon in a pitched battle.

a CW list with 4 torpedo cruisers, 1 torpedo LC and an escort has 134dps / 0 shields and 5800 hull (11600 hull until the generators are gone), 36x90 torpedo damage on a 45sec cd and the maelstrom on a 3min CD. best case you burst for 3240 hull damage every 45 seconds (37sec with reload) with the torpedos (arming range is 1000 units and it takes less than two seconds for torpedos to cross that distance. you can race them against 600 speed fighters).

the slaughter stun will get nerfed to 5 seconds (very good imo) and I don't see how reducing the burst from 3240 hull damage to 2520 hull damage will be enough to balance CW.

last edited by Fosil

I have not had any direct experience with this but from what I have heard from other players, it sounds like one of the main reasons this is so good is not necessarily the damage output (which is spectacular, not denying that), but the fact that this should be a high risk, high reward but at the moment it is only a reward, given the eldar's mobility and how great void shields are at the moment. They out brawl fleets that were designed to brawl and have a tool for high, almost instant damage, that has been removed from other fleets (Necron pulse, for example). So, they need to either reduce the reward or increase the risk to provide play against it. The reward side is easy enough, just reduce the damage of those torps like they did for everyone else, On the risk side, reduce the effectiveness of holo fields or allow lightning strikes to work against full gauge holo fields so that when the Eldar does get into torp range, you can cripple a system or reduce it's efficiency.

The thing is that at the current meta all eldar factions are forced to play torp builds since they have ruined lances for DE and pulsars always hit random stuff instead of the actual target, so perhaps consider that when suggesting fixes, because eldar players don't want to be forced to only playing torps but that is how the game currently is.

@Papa-Nurgle The eldar factions currently have a bunch of strong/overperforming playstyles. Right now torps are simply the strongest and give the enemy the least chance for counterplay.

Check my post on fixing pulsars, tbf i do think maybe the cruisers could be reduced to 6 torps, with maybe a 10 points cost reduction to help compensate.
Bare in mind that CWE do not have any stealth mechanic on their cruisers like other eldar have, so you can see them coming a long way off, especially if you are screening ahead with escorts or fighters, thats what makes them risk/reward, you can see them coming, you can take plenty of shots at them before they get to you, and you can orient your ships to present the smallest targets and be ready to dodge/have fighters out.
The CWE torps are by no means unavoidable, overlapping turret fire especially with some fighters out will kill a lot of them, if you arent able to dodge. In order to make sure they get as much effect as possible they are firing at very close range, meaning you get to board them, which they are vulnerable to, take out the generators and they are done.
But as i said in my Puslars post, the problem is torps are the only competitive builds for eldar atm, pulsars are unreliable as hell, and the launch bays for eldar are insanely expensive