Is DE a brawling faction now?

I wholeheartedly agree with Plushanubka that the performance of the Drukhari is fairly concering.

It's fine with me that Dark Eldar deal a lot of damage, they're supposed to be deadly. But their ships aren't expensive either. In the current state of the game Dark Eldar are too cost efficient compared to other factions.

Especially the damage output of Drukhari battleships seems to be over the top. With the recent changes to crit chances, you can just mindlessly throw your Dark Eldar battleships in the midst of combat. It's not a big deal if you lose one of your Falling Moon ships, you can pick 3 of them anyway. Unless you make severe mistakes, you're going to win without much effort.

lol so many of you guys are just comparing flat dps, "only ork rok can out dps DE at 4500 range" ehm sure.. but the rok has like 2800 hp and heavy armor.
DE dont even have holofields they are extremely squishy, the chaos vs DE test is garbage, all it shows is that DE out dps chaos.. and chaos are kinda weak atm except for the close macro builds which he didnt do. Eldar are also very weak to ramming, which is why you always wanna be getting as close as possible, make them run away and stop firing, let your shields recharge, DE have no shields whatsoever to absorb damage its just a bad test.
Look at win rates and you drukhari arent actualy very high, and good players know how to fight stealth fleets. It sounds to me like your complaining about getting killed by stealth fleets because all you brough were big slow ships and not nearly enough escorts or tools to catch or reveal them

@plushanubka

https://www.twitch.tv/plushanubkabfg/clip/EnergeticRockyMelonAMPEnergy?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

You see the half of the Ork fleet is somewhere else on the clip and DE brings full force.

Anyway ork sucks.

Yes.. again these are poor examples, you could show any example of any fleet killing another in a quick way, DE still dont have a the top 3 highest win rates atm iirc, all those examples are showing a good player, picking a specific build against weaker players that are very vulnerable to that build.

First examples are against Tau.. well eldar in general are strong vs tau, unless the tau player has any brains. Neither of those Tau players used enough escorts, and neither used them properly, to scout ahead. The escorts should be well ahead of the main ships to spot the enemy so your big ships can.. you know.. actually use their super long range weapons. Instead he stays all clustered up, no decent scouting whatsoever, against a stealth faction that is most likely going to have torpedoes.

The DE player, is popping the wraithbone ability to give himself 75 frontal armor for 15 seconds thats why hes ramming and doing so much damage while not taking much himself. But it only lasts 15 seconds and only affects the front armor.

I dont see either of his opponents scouting, using bombs to force evasive boosts. Spreading out. That armor ability only works within 9k of the flagship, so spread out and then its not nearly as effective. They also dont anticipate the ram and dont present their front to his ships letting him ram them in the sides or rear, also doesnt use brace when he can see the rams coming.

It basically like playing against a guy with a shotgun, and your playing a sniper. You have the ability to scout him, and do lots of damage before he gets to you to even it up but instead your just letting him get close for free.

That being said i DO think DE need nerfs, but in the points department, Problem i have win DE atm is that all their battleships are so cheap. They all have the exact same firepower, the obsidian rose only has 3 extra lances, which arent even that good now that the lock on got changed.
Their Battleships should all be minimum 400 each imo, they also have good troop efficiency had 70% assault crit chance which makes their low price even more ridiculous

@Davie I can dismantle your whole post piece by piece but i won't, because you will bring even more bullshit after that. In short, I cant even understand what are you even argue about.
I've showcased that DE overperforms in brawling scenarios, you said I'm wrong. Now you telling this: " i DO think DE need nerfs". Like wtf?

And one more thing. You've told my examples are bad, but all your examples is just theorycrafting. Do you seriously think that any of eldar factions should be easy to play? Because right now you must be far more skilled at the game then eldar player to win against him.

last edited by Plushanubka

saying "i can dismantle your post but i wont" LOL, great way to win a debate.

Theres a big difference from saying DE are flat OP and saying they need a bit of a price increase. I dont even like dark eldar, but i have played them a bit, (mostly because they just look so much damn cooler than the regular eldar's stupid looking space fish) I wouldnt change them except to make all of their battleships minimum like 380 or something like that, to make them more close to price as the other eldar big ships, that being said the carrier DE ship with only 3 launch bays is like 450, why are launch bays sooo overpriced lol? Far from unbeatable tho and could say the same about ships from a lot of factions, Looking at you here mister Imperium and admech with all of your conveniently priced ships at just barely below 200! lol, since i play mostly 2s anyway.

Also im not sure if your ram build is exploiting a bug, i see you pop wraithbone reinforcements before ramming but it specifically says that its not supposed to apply during collisions so thats something to look at

@Davie
Everything you wrote in your post is not relevant.
Price increase cannot change the fact that DE is better at brawl then at hit and run.
Carriers are not brawlers, because they are designed for support role or hit and run.
Im not exploiting anything, DE ships are just THAT good at ramming.

Also, how point increase will fix the fact that DE fleet is more effective at brawl then hit and run?

And from my understanding you are OK with point increase and dont want to change anything else only because you are bad at the game and cannot control more then two ships, mr "i play mostly 2s anyway". That being said, maybe you should not talk about this stuff in the future, because this is getting embarrassing at this point.

last edited by Plushanubka

@Plushanubka can you stop being rude about other players simply because they don't agree with you?

There are valid points made by both sides I think.

last edited by Mystic_Taboo

I dont think they are better brawling than hit and run, that might work against a few factions, especially tau.
Join the party elite discord, we had airsickhydra playing with us yesterday as well, and not one person think DE is overpowered, tho they do agree with me on the points increase. My main issue with the points is that they should NOT be able to have 3 BS in 1k 2v2, or 3 with change for stuff in 1v1.

And you may be unintentionally exploiting a bug, a lot of ramming damage, is based off of your armor, so upping your armor from 50 to 75 with the ability is a major difference. Its not supposed to work with ramming but maybe it is anyway, the game is far from bug free.
You said carriers were not brawlers? what? you werent using carriers dont know what you mean here lol

Mr i cant handle more than 2 ships lol?

Have you ever actually had a debate with someone and won? first you say you could dismantle my post but that you wont, then you resort to saying my opinion is invalid because i like to play 2v2? And then say i shouldnt voice my opinion in future essentially because i disagree with you.

The only person embarrassing themselves here is you, attack the argument not the person.

How about you two have a match with plush playing a brawling DE.

afaics wraithbone reinforcements reduces the ramming damage you take and it does not change the damage you cause (this is consistent with the bfg1 ramming formula, should be something like taking half damage). you want to avoid high-speed collisions against most ships, because you trade better in pure dps + torpedos, but against 67 armor stuff without a ramming spur, you still win the damage trade if you have the ramming blade upgrade. it is great as a "defensive" upgrade to let you stay in 4.500 range more safely.

I also think DE is OP. Mostly due to how bad detection is in the game.

DE ships dont have spurs, and only 50 armor, just the upgrade for 50% extra ramming damage, (tho they cant stack that on top of spurs like IN can).
The only way i see that much ramming damage being done is if wraithbone reinforcements isnt working properly, it says it should not apply during collisions.
Is that supposed to mean you still do ram damage as if you had 75 armor but you still take damage yourself at armor 50 value? i assumed it to mean both but who knows.
The general question was are they too good at brawling and i dont know, i mean they are DE, they have assault boats on their carriers unlike the other eldar, they have the ram damage upgrade, they have good troop efficiency with base 60% crit chance same as space marines, with an extra 10% from frenzy passive.
If they were to get nerfed id like to see something along the lines of, give them increased cost especially on the battleships, and downgrade the surgical strike to planned strike, so 60% base crit down to 30%

@davie here is the damage formula for ramming from the first game. it may have not change much compared to the second game (http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?t=3214).

from what I could see in-game, armor reduces the damage you suffer, it has no effect on the damage you cause. like I said in my post before, afaics wraithbone reinforcement sets your front armor to 75 and it works during collusions to this effect. it has no effect on the ramming damage you cause, it only reduces the damage you take (like braced).

without the 18.000 range admiral, DE work best as a reload/braced torpedo brawler, staying in 4.500 range to mitigate the armor difference (it reduces all armor to 50, including your rokks which cannot fire all its weapons at the same target anyway like space stations). the emphasis is on brawler, not troop-killer like SM, nids or some ork builds.

it is quite funny that all three eldar factions best builds are brawlers.

right so it doesnt affect the ramming damage they cause, but wraithbone reinforcement upgrade specifically says it "does not apply during collisions" so it should also not affect the damage they take, meaning even if your dealing damage your still ramming a 50 armor ship into something so should take a lot of damage doing so.

I think the asuryani playstyle is fine, i wish there were more options for them beyond torp spam, but they dont have the stealth of the other two factions so they pay dearly for getting that extra armor.

What makes you think the corsairs are brawlers lol? they are fragile as hell and dont have the 8 torp cruisers like asuryani or DE.

This test is pretty pointless, in order to test this theory I played the exact same brawling DE build in ranked matches, very similar to how it was played in the clip (sitting still and firing with re load). I beat a few players (the wins were very close) but it was not very effective. A player playing well with good use of boarding was able to capitalize on low Deldar leadership and cripple the strategy. Particularly Necrons were able to counter it well, using the shockwave ability to cancel torpe and teleporting to eliminate range advantage. So no, Deldar aren’t a brawling faction, but they can be if the enemy does not properly use the abilities at their disposal.

@davie have you not played much against corsairs in 1v1? 6 shadow cruisers and 2 aconite escorts have 164dps macros and 3x2160 torpedo burst damage with 8000 hull and 3x60 troops. with access to AP-ammo they can brawl very well (it is a bit of a debate which macro eldar build is the strongest in an inter-eldar fight). the holofield is practically a crit-reduction of 50% vs "non-lock on" stances. depending on distance, it is still giving you 30% less crits received at zero distance against lock-on (btw 30% less damage too). that means until you had two generator crits, the fragile traits with full holofields means in a worst case scenario that you take 40% more crits at zero distance against a lock-on ship compared to non-fragile ships without holofields. if you compare fleet dps and burst potential to other brawling fleets, it is pretty obvious why that build is a top-brawler.

@NivlacACE go into 4.500 range with AP ammo if you want to do in-game testing. if you keep losing, you need to improve your choice of initial engagement and torpedo micro. you don't even have to abuse the wraithbone reinforcement bug to have superior ramming.

I have both played as and against that corsair build, is pretty common but i wouldnt really describe it as a brawler build, brawler usually implies you wanna get as close as possible, board, ram, broadside etc. That corsair builds main advantage is that you can auto engage to make micro easier and keep moving while firing since you have 270 degree fire, however unlike the asuryani cruisers they only have 4 torps each, making it very difficult to get much done when you have to micro 6 ships while never stopping movement on any and not getting close enough for ramming. Corsairs also have poor troop efficiency and given critical damage is done every troop stage, its extremely easy to take out the generators or engines with very little boarding and once either of those are gone the eldar is dead.
Still a strong build, i prefer voidstalker with double eclipse myself, love those pulsars 🙂 but i wouldnt call it a brawler by any means

it is more important to land the torps asap and stay in 4.500 range to get the AP bonus than to avoid all ramming attempts. you melt more than 90 hull points per second with reload focus fire in the 4.500 range. all you need is a good initial engagement where you can concentrate your fleet on one target before the other player can do the same and you have enough head start in the damage race. similar to DE, people play corsairs more carefully as necessary, because they underestimate the brute force approach.

last edited by Fosil

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