Hanger System Proposal

I am aware that no changes will be taken too seriously, but I will recommend some changes here.

First of all, defense turrets currently have 35% accuracy and fire once every 3 seconds, averaging about 0.1 DPS per turret in 4500 range. For simplicity's sake, I am going to keep those numbers as a starting point.

Secondly, I am going to propose a few changes to hitting fighters.

The Big Change - 90% Evasion during transit.
While squads are moving around, they all have a 90% evasion against ordinance (in addition to any other evasion effects). This means that kiting or intercepting squads with ships is less effective. Additionally, ships will gain a penalty on any craft currently engaging with another ship. Ideally, I would like this to be a flat inversion of range so 4499 distance is 1/4500 as effective. That said, if a flat value were to be chosen, I think 25% effect against other craft would be reasonable, with 33% being the ideal and 50% being workable. A group of 5 craft close to each-other would have 2x-3x the defense value then, in effect, from its turrets.

To make this work for bombers, a bombing run will naturally be a 3 second attack run, with 1-3 seconds of no evasion afterwards (I favor 2 given preserving current values). Because of the limited engagement window, bombers will be the best choice for attacking 'fortified' targets, but should expect worse returns.

Reasoning: Kiting is overly effective against ordinance, and ordinance gets far too inconsistent results dependent on who its facing. Likewise, it is impossible to target just the weak ships in a blob at the moment, because all ships can cover all ships equally well, making targeting decisions less interesting. I want to promote hangers as something to get minimal effects against strong ships and stronger effects against weakened ships. They will still have a purpose in bursting down a powerful ship, but will revolve less around that sort of focus.

Change 2: Rework of Fighters and Assault Boat attack patterns

Fighters:
No longer an anti-turret system when attacking, instead they are closer to ork or necron fighters.
Fighter 'average' stats become:
Wing Size: 6
Evasion: 10%
Health: 3 (Alternatively health 2 and evasion 40% if you want)
Damage: 2 Hull damage per second (suffers side armor)

1 Wing of these fighters will do 204 damage to a 6-turret escort, 2 will deal 746 possibly killing it over a minute (before dying itself).
4 Wings will deal 1438 Damage to a 12-Turret ship, 813 if its on brace for impact, 407 including the min armor. A sizeable, but not insane blow for a strong carrier to deal to a lone CA.

Turret capacity basically has a linear-effect against such fighters, 20 turrets takes about half the turret of 10 turrets. Total attack size matters, but only the targeted ship needs to use Brace for most of the result, meaning you are dedicating a ton to 1 ship.

Each fighter would function like a turret in its zone, when deployed without targeting (and maintain its evasion). If deployed to a ship in specific, they would act like additional turrets for that ship, enabling supporting fighters to ignore enemy evasion effects. In this way, even 1 hanger would be a useful defensive tool for ships, and 2 would be a solid choice - realistically halving the damage an enemy attack would do (but not deleting it entirely).

I have a spreadsheet of resulting values with these changes, and more specific recommendations by faction, I will likely make that as a second post.

Bombers:
With the established system, bombers would mostly experience enemy turrets as DR, and be more survive able. Bombers are changed to be more about attacking hardened targets, while fighters are more about finishing them off.

Recommended Average Stats:
Wing Size: 4
Evasion: 0%
Ship Health: 2
Ship Damage: 30
With a full 3 second retreat time, I would recommend 10-20% evasion for them as well.

Assault Boats
Assault boats currently do not return. I would recommend assault boats are changed into a variant of the described bomber system - every 3 seconds an assault boat performs an assault action and the health of 1 assault boat is lost from the squad. Many assault boats against one target would have to wait in the queue, encouraging a spread of targets.

Recommended Average Stats:
Wing Size: 2
Evasion: 25%
Ship Health: 3

This has the result of helping ensure the target ship doesn't just lose its entire population instantly, and allowing specialization that naturally self-corrects a bit for the more problematic parts of the game (boarding). Meanwhile higher health enables more consistent results.

This is how I would enable more consistent effects for hangers, decreasing how binary they are and how much they force specialization (though it is still somewhat true, like most things in the game).

That sounds like a very large design change solving a problem that could be solved with much simpler solutions, e.g., increase ordnance speed. A simple solution is better than suggesting a huge rework.

High effort low reward is what I would call this proposal 😕

It also sounds like you want all factions to have fighter-bombers and bombers.... why have both? You really are just turning fighters into bombers. Currently fighters provide:

  1. Scouting
  2. Clearing turrets for late-game bombers
  3. Screening bombers/torpedoes

Your system means fighters just kill things... cool.

last edited by CowGoMoo

A real part of the fighter change is because I believe fighters killing turrets is unhealthy for the game.
I understand the focus on gameplay people have, but I value versatile design quite a bit, and have found that very lacking for most the factions.

I am with CowGoMoo, that increasing ordnance speed would help more to avoid the kiting situations that faster ships can interrupt the attack animation of strike craft by boosting.

my experience with hangar-heavy builds so far is, that trying to clear turrets from an enemy formation is a waste of charges and that only point blank strike craft drops sort of work. another big problem is that hull damage no longer guarantees destroyed turrets (only one of several possible crit. effects destroys two repairable turrets), which means that the banged up BB will still have most/all of its turrets intact.

lastly atm there is no reason to take defensive hangars to help out against hangar heavy builds.

@Fosil you sure they don't auto lose turrets based on hp still?

@brohanbroski I first noticed that ships had still more or less full turrets after losing most of their hull in several 2v2 games, when I was playing merchant tau and I tested it myself later by ramming and torpedo shooting at my own ships in an AI skirmish. had DE BBs with full turrets and 700 or less hp left.

last edited by Fosil

I find bays are in a strange spot.
Sending 2 bombers or boats against 1 Cruiser often result in nothing so you either have to spam 4bays ships or just use defensive/scout fighters but with the costs of bays ships, just a defensive use is not efficient when blobbing and brace for impact just achive the same goal
If enemy is blobbing, your ordnances will be just suicided
Also the most useful ordnance is fighters, they bring scouting/removal of turrets/soaking up turrets damages extremely well...

@cowgomoo said in Hanger System Proposal:

increase ordnance speed

Boom, hit the nail on the head.

One other VERY EASY fix code wise is to do what they had in the first game for assault boats and some bombers. They launched with a very small wing of fighters that in effect helped to eat a few hits from turrets, or buy at least a little time for a actual fighter wing to come and help them

Could also just have them close distance at double speed when with in a certain short distance (after burn to target when close) to avoid kiting

last edited by LtSmash