Lances

AdMech lance does 18 damage every 12 seconds (1.5 DPS) with a base critical chance of 9% (18% in lock on)

Chaos lance does 4 damage every 8 seconds (0.5 DPS) with a base critical chance of 2% (4% in lock on).

What's people's thoughts on the facts the Admech do 300% more damage and have a 450% higher critical chance than Chaos with their lances?

@bosie chaos lances always come as pairs, so not quite as bad as you make out.

I do agree with your general jist though, chaos lances do seem a bit lackluster. ..

@coheed1988

I'm stating the hard stats of lances, and if this makes Chaos lances look bad...

So let's double Chaos lances' damage and critical hit chance. AdMech are now only 50% ahead in damage and 125% better at scoring critical hits...

@bosie said in Lances:

@coheed1988

I'm stating the hard stats of lances, and if this makes Chaos lances look bad...

So let's double Chaos lances' damage and critical hit chance. AdMech are now only 50% ahead in damage and 125% better at scoring critical hits...

Actually it's still only 50% in relation to crit chance as well, since chaos get off 1.5 times the shots that Admech get off in the same time.

I said I agree with you that Chaos lances are a bit crap, but you're not going to convince other people if you don't at least make a sound point backed up with real numbers.

Yeah also what is the pointcost of AdMech lances vs Chaos Lances? You can always check values but without the relation to cost you can t compareanything

I have yet to get my chaos fleet rolling, so I can't comment on the overall faction's balance, but I don't think you are drawing a fair comparison here.

Chaos lance batteries make double the shots than IN and admech lance batteries do, so the damage and crit disparity is not that severe. Also, aside from Apocalypse under lock on and a few singular stern lances on IN and admech ships, chaos ones have doble the range of imperial ones.

Not to mention admech lances have been buffed this patch and they do 50% more damage than IN ones. However this comes at a price and right now admech are arguably worse off with the new changes, scince the prices on all of their ships went up 10% and their best fleet is now 5 CR, which is nowhere near competative.

Plus admech has the overcharge upgrade, while Chaos gets literally nothing for lances in upgrades department. Except the range upgrade which is next to useless, especially with lock on bonus.

Anyway back to the topic, I don't need to remind that Chaos lances come in pairs as that has been covered.
In any case, in my own experience so far the less-shots-but-higher-crit-chance lances of IN and AdMech have proved to crit more viciously than more-shots-but-less-crit-chance lances of Chaos.

Overall Chaos lances suck when one takes into account that Chaos is supposed to be a lance-strong fleet.

Seeing the "overcharged lances" (or something like that) perk of Apocalypse Battleship has given me an idea. How about giving all lance equipped Chaos ships a similar perk (something like "corruptive energies" or such) that makes their lances set the armor to 25, like it did in first game. I understand this could fuck up certain factions though, so this could as well be "reduce by 50, but to no less than 25".

This would keep Chaos lances at 1 dps, while returning them to a solid enough state.
I'd like to remind everyone that Chaos used to be a balance benchmark for all other factions in the first game. Not even IN was as stable.

Reducing armor by 50 is a very big deal. Probably too much. 33 armor for Necron lol 😃

You don't have to buff lance, you could buff chaos lance boat. That could work too.

last edited by CanardNoir

@canardnoir said in Lances:

Reducing armor by 50 is a very big deal. Probably too much. 33 armor for Necron lol 😃

You don't have to buff lance, you could buff chaos lance boat. That could work too.

I agree. 50 was an example, something like 33-40 would be good.

Just spit balling an idea for a lance upgrade for Chaos, "infernal lances" (too cheesey?), kind of along the idea of thermal lances, has an increased chance to crit a fire onboard.

Provides an increase in base DPS, whilst still respecting armor values and not adding to the large number of systems crits already in the game.

Thoughts?

Would be a great passive for Tzeench :p

Some factions are very weaks to fire, orks and nids might be too good in thoses cases. Plus fire makes moral damage, so crit Deck + slaanesh could be a prbl.

The thing is without proper testing is difficult. It depends on the number I guess.

last edited by CanardNoir

In this part there is also an improvement on Lens which increases his damage against shields, as well as lowers Eldar shields and does not allow them to be restored, although with the last patch, the spears do not ignore all armor but reduce it by 25, they made them even worse for heavy armor, which is absolutely against their essence, spears have always been against heavy armor

The issue I see with throwing a choosable upgrade to lances for Chaos is that it would only give us one of those "essential upgrades".

The way it is now, it's 2 upgrades available and in vast majority of cases most of choices are rubbish. But there's still a semblance of choice when there aren't any revolutionary upgrades. Throw in a lance upgrade and we get such revolutionary upgrade. It would be a must with little to no fun in choosing upgrade set up.

That's why I suggested to make the whatever buff to lances permanent to ships. I would have no issue if we still had system similar to the previous game, with 5 or so upgrades tied to each ship. But as it is now? Nah.

I agree with @Ahriman . Upgrades are probably not the way to balance lances. It will only become Auto pick if you want to opt for a lance fleet. It will have to be a buff or perk associated with chaos lances.

@Coheed1988 True the damage difference between Admech lances and Chaos lances might not be to big. But Admechs have Nova cannons mounted on pretty much all of their ships and their pet toasters. Which is a NASTY combo. Chaos doesnt have any of that insane burst damage potential associated with their ships.

The Gothic 218 points is Cheaper than the Acheron 224 Points And gets a Nova Cannon to boot. Admech lance boats have more value to them because of that. Granted. Admech Cruisers have more value because they dont have BC hulls. But still the Admech Gothic is fairly comparable to the Acheron imo.

last edited by CANNED_F3TUS

Gothic 9k range acheron 18k range and you compare them? Also novas are easily dodgeable by chaos

@beernchips said in Lances:

Gothic 9k range acheron 18k range and you compare them? Also novas are easily dodgeable by chaos

Yeah, especially when you have several flying at you, preferably with gravity ones too.
Throw in that ridiculous radiation thingy in the mix, because why not.

Oh, and dodging gets even easier when you want to maintain non-identified status and you don't have emission dissipaters. And when you're identified you get exposed to those crit machines of their lances.

Are novas easily dodgable by Chaos? Yes.
Is it good for your health in the grander scheme of things? No, not really.

From my experience:

vs Admech I put reload stance and spread a little. After a couple of minutes of dodging most novas (usually let them hit with 1 and take it on the shields, while not running out of boost) the Admech players either leave, unable to cope with the kiting, or die to it. This usually worked with 2x Desolator + 2x Styx + 2x Infidel.

Oh and I don't use Emission Dissipaters in that list.

last edited by Lothair88

You don t care being revealed if the enemy don t have enough range to hit you. Crit engines don t happen before shields are downed. If you eat all novas just to keep unreaveled status i understand why you rage vs admech

last edited by Beernchips

My suggestion for buffing lances, would be to make the reloade stance ("Standard weapons rate of fire +40%) work on them. That would be a noticeable improvement.

@beernchips thats the only difference between them but they both got alot of lances. and most fights are always gonna be around 9k - 12 k. nova cannon round are not always easy to dodge either. It all depends on the situation. Especially now that admech got Grav shells. Makes it really easy at this point.