Lances

@torgen said in Lances:

My suggestion for buffing lances, would be to make the reloade stance ("Standard weapons rate of fire +40%) work on them. That would be a noticeable improvement.

But then you lose the benefit of lance crit bonus, or reinforced defence of brace for impact. So while it would be a nice solution, it would not be a complete one.

Hi All,

I've added a checkbox to my spreadsheets to compare how Chaos ships perform if they also benefited from reload stance, might be worth a mull over.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mNP00azWyXkg702tEj4nlut4jHLXQGuADGJBjU4xRnA/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: After a little reviewing - full 40% boost to lances may be a touch over powered... perhaps 20%?

Second edit: Actually perhaps not that bad ... Especially if you compare it to AP ammo upgrade.

last edited by Coheed1988

@ahriman said in Lances:

It would be a must.

Not at all chaos can play many things else than fleet full of lance boat...

Lances are not bad. They are the only reliable way to deal long range damage, and are decent at dealing crits at all ranges. They are weak at short range, strong at long range.

Reload affecting lances would be overpowered. It would be a 66% damage buff which is far too much.

last edited by CowGoMoo

@cowgomoo They are, however have you tried staying at long range long whilst keeping the enemy on your broadside enough to do more than kill an escort?

@coheed1988 said in Lances:

Hi All,

I've added a checkbox to my spreadsheets to compare how Chaos ships perform if they also benefited from reload stance, might be worth a mull over.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mNP00azWyXkg702tEj4nlut4jHLXQGuADGJBjU4xRnA/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: After a little reviewing - full 40% boost to lances may be a touch over powered... perhaps 20%?

Second edit: Actually perhaps not that bad ... Especially if you compare it to AP ammo upgrade.

Making lance as good as macro close range don't make any sense since they are so much better at range.

Some chaos lances shoot at 18k so you don't need extra range most of the time. Reload would OP, (reload is +66% dps not 40, you decrese reload time by 40%).

And I don't think you want to buff lance in general anyway. Would be better just to adjust chaos lance boat that need it. (Acheron is fine for example). Don't think any other army has build whit most of the dps as lances.

last edited by CanardNoir

decrease the crit. chance for macros and you have a niche for lances.

@fosil said in Lances:

decrease the crit. chance for macros and you have a niche for lances.

Wouldn't change anything. Lance boat can already make about 3 times more crit than a macro boat (with reload). So this niche is already filled but still.

Or make lances reduce armor when hitting hull (like -1 armor for 5 secs). Synergizes with macros and lances. Good for IN and Chaos

@Fosil the crit chance for macros is already half that of lances, is that not enough of a difference?

Why not just buff the dmg of chaos lances to same level with IN lances? Long range fighting has been chaos territory before why not now? IN has other tricks on their sleeve anyway to use than lances chaos not so much. Btw chaos all so have lances with only 9k range but i can tell you they have identical dmg output with 18k lances so range is not the reason why chaos lance dps suck. All other factions from Bfga 1 got to keep their play styles pretty much but chaos has to change play style completely.

@brohanbroski: the standard proportion between chaos/navy lance and macro batteries/turrets is 1/2-1/3 raw dps, the doubled lance crit. rate puts them only on a more equal footing regarding crits.

I don't think extreme long range kiting is really viable with a capture and hold point system and high mobility brawlers / semi-brawlers being the meta builds. with shorter engagement ranges, macros are more or less the meta-pick. specialising these weapon types stronger in raw-damage vs subsystem destroyer could give lances a better place in builds.

@CanardNoir you better check your math, a reload brawler has similar crit chances in brawling distance compared to a lock-on lance boat.

@JorpA navy and chaos have the same values of damage and crit per time lance batteries and turrets. bosie was comparing them to the AM lances, which got a 50% damage increase in the last patch

@Fosil Strange, I find myself using the armageddon over the overlord purely for the extra lances.

@fosil i do think lances can have a place in the current capture mode. But it has to be more defensive.

@fosil said in Lances:

@CanardNoir you better check your math, a reload brawler has similar crit chances in brawling distance compared to a lock-on lance boat.

What you're doing here is called cherry picking. You take the only case confirming what you said ignoring all the others.

And it's not accurate at all.

  • First, it depends on wich ships you compare and could be true only at 4,5k and bellow. Considering how narrow this is it's doesn' t make any sens as a point to compare both armaments let alone making a balance decision. some math so you can check yours before asking other to do so
  • Secondly around 4,5k macro are supposed to be better than lances anyway and at close range the problem with macro vs lances is not that you don't make enough crit it's just that the macro fleet kills things 5x faster. Giving less crit in this particular case don't change your lance prbl.
  • Thirdly if you take the bigger picture, 9k and beyond, macro deal a lot more crits than macro. An acheron at 9k deal already more than twice the number of crit than a carnage. (and I take a realistic scenario here, macro boat on relaod and lance boat on lock on since thoses stances are the best for thoses ships at this range). The difference is just ridiculous beyond 9K as expected.

And finally it's not just a prbl of lances vs macro. If you take 5 mins to think, lowering macro crit will have a lot of side effects on how macro fleet would perform. The goal is not to fuck everything else just to buff lances obviously.

This is a complex matter and every race don't need the same tweaks in order to make their lances good because of interaction with ships chassy, upgrades etc

That's why i think you can't really balance Lance as a hole beyond a certain point without creating more problems. You have to consider each races separately and look at bad ships on a case by case basis.

@BrohanBroski the armageddon has the better macro battery, you have to decide between 2+6 vs 5+5 with a ship that will probably change to braced in close range (I never liked to play MP with navy). it is an exception similar to the slaughter. the vengeance / avenger stat-lines have some similarity, only that the avenger is close to a quarter cheaper than the vengeance.

on the other hand the choice between endeavour and endurance or gothic vs every other navy cruiser is pretty clear cut. apocalypse and desolator are other lance heavy boats that underperform imo. lets not talk about chaos prow lances.

@CANNED_F3TUS holofields are one big reason imo why you want to avoid lance-kiting and another big one is the high amount of high mobility builds you cannot reliably kite. from my experience it is better to maximize hull and dps, while trying to take more crit-resistant hulls.

@CanardNoir take a step back and re-read what I wrote and what you wrote. you made a claim about crit-rates in general, that was too generalized. I specifically talked about brawling range, that's 4500 range and below for me (AP-ammo).

I disagree with your assumption that macro boats should always run with reload too. it depends on what you want to achieve. there are situations where you want to knock out a subsystem asap instead of doing hull damage. so it makes sense to compare lock-on vs lock-on too.

I hope you realize that you changed from "wouldn't change anything" to "will have a lot of side effects" in one post.

last edited by Fosil

@fosil Ofcourse pure lance is out of the question with the way this game took a turn. i agree. That and the holofields. But a hybrid fleet with more emphasis on lances could work.