Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf

So, Chaos in the last patch have not gotten as much shiny toys-buffs as Navy and Admech have, but its fleets definitely needs much more to be truly diverse and competitive. If the main game mode wasn't about points, but about eliminations, you would have seen how any non rush Chaos fleet suffers because it's so hard for it to kill the enemy. Chaos should be about long range kiting, carriers and sometimes rush, but right now it's only rush that is semi competitive. And that needs to change.

Buffs:

  1. Chaos macro is pretty good - long range, a lot of missiles, good accuracy with Daemonic Sigh upgrade, which is basically +10% more accuracy beyond 9000 range, but no more than 50% without Lock On. It could be better at very long range(like +20% more accuracy from Daemonic Sigh, but no more than 50%), but it's okay if it is not.

  2. Lances though... well, look no further than this forum to see why Chaos Lances are very meh. Admech lances are good after buff, Navy lances are meh, but usually are at least on cheaper ships with torpedoes and rams(still, some of those ships could use a buff though), Space Marine Lances are actually pretty decent in my eyes(especially considering that SM just want to board everything).
    And Chaos Lances come in pair with good Macro DPS supplement, but are very expensive in comparison to how much actual damage they do in battle. Sure they got great range, but it takes too long for lance boats to kill even the most optimal targets, and kiting at long range is not easy nowadays, as Navy can now mass execute chase you well, Orks can flood the map, Necrons just tank lances and catch you, etc, ect... Recent lance change was good, because it made their performance much more consistent. But Chaos lances NEED to deal much more damage considering their cost. I would start with at least 30% DPS increase. I'm quite tempted to say 50%, but I'm not sure. Their range is great after all.

  3. Chaos carriers are quite expensive, but those with 4 launch bays and good secondary armaments are pretty solid. Their Fighters are quite powerful, Assault craft is good if used right, but their Bombers... they deal not that much damage, while dying pretty easily even if you send 2 waves with 4 squadrons at the same time from the same angle. They have much less units in squadron compared to fighters(4 to 6), much worse dodge(40% vs 70%) and much slower speed(400 vs 600), which is especially bad for bombers. Assault craft has much worse tankiness, but they are fast and just get shot less while on the way to the target. Many fleets even without any carriers can easily nulify 8 chaos launch bays by staying close, using Brace for extra turret accuracy and even kiting bombers with All ahead Full and shooting them with whole fleet to pieces. Only good targets for them are those that are isolated and have low amount of turrets. And considering that it's not BGA1 and you want bombers to return back to you alive, I propose either:
    Increasing Chaos bombers speed from 400 to 500/550
    or
    Increasing Chaos bombers dodge from 40% to 50/55%.

And to be fair, bombers of some other factions(Navy at least) could use some buffs as well...

Chaos Ships small buffs:

Desolator: basically an Acheron with much better tankiness, 3 torpedo charges and much worse maneuverability. Which is all would be fine if his maneuverability wasn't THAT bad. I'm not asking for High energy maneuvers, but please increase his rotation speed from 4 to 6, so it would be much easier to use Desolator for kiting and aiming his torpedoes. It's a much needed change for this ship.

Despoiler: please fix his hangars. I've tested it a few times(Fleets of 3 Styxes and 3 Despoilers for consistency) and it definitely feels like it's bugged and 3 Despoilers deal as much damage as 3 Styxes(both fleets dealing ~1000 damage per run on a ship with almost no turrets in the way). Then may be this ship would be worth picking. 6 Hangars + 7 lance DPS from the prow is nice after all.

Murded And Hades - may be make Prow lance shoot in 180 degree radios(not 270) and increase their price a bit as well?

Ship nerfs:

The most competitive Chaos build right now is also the most boring and stupid one - 6 Slaughers plus 3 Idolators with Slaanesh stun(which have already been well nerfed). They have 240 speed and the most cost effective DPS in all of a Chaos fleet(14 Macro + 2 Lance on a main target plus 8 macro and 2 lance on the other side). So you just rush in and start shooting everything, and if you have more DPS, you just win. And there is simply no countering it if you do not have MUCH more close range DPS(like being Navy). Granted, after AP nerf it's less potent, but it's still very strong. And my nerf proposition to this rush strategy would be to

  1. Decrease Slaugher speed to 200
  2. Increase its range to 13500.
  3. (May be) Slightly increase price

This would make Slaughers into a much more balanced and universal ship, while still leaving good room for rush builds. Although, to be fair, I would have preferred much more if balanced compositions would be the most viable ones.

lances need no buff
critrate is already far too high in the game, making ships unusable at 99% health with no way to counter
high critrate weapons dont need anything extra
currently the hp bar is the most useless stat in the game and it doesnt need to made worse then it already is
unless the crit system gets a rework lances need a nerf, not a buff

chaos can use their own form of commissar so kiting ships can actually kite
but in no way do they need better lances

@ashardalon this is a bit of a different topic, but I do belive that most ships should be immune to crits when they are above 85% health. And yes, even with Lock on, unless you run full on Acheron fleet(and in that case you can die to so many nasty things...), Lances do not generate that much crits in my experience, especially if you run against BC or BS heavy fleets. Handy at picking apart LC though. I personally never had a situation, when mine or enemy weapon fire rendered ships useless, when it still had at least 60% HP. Boarding - sure, that stuff can crit subsystems like crazy, but not weapons.

Hovewer, if they are serious concers that lances are already too good at critting, well okay, revert the buff they had before, but please, in return make them actually kill enemy ships over a reasonable period of time.

And I do not belive, that Chaos needs "commisars", it may push Chaos into the realm of uncatchable. But some Demonic Sacrifice giving better weapons accuracy and rate of fire for a limited time... This could be fun. Good way to burst enemy on approach.

last edited by Zeblasky

@ashardalon said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

lances need no buff
critrate is already far too high in the game, making ships unusable at 99% health with no way to counter
high critrate weapons dont need anything extra
currently the hp bar is the most useless stat in the game and it doesnt need to made worse then it already is
unless the crit system gets a rework lances need a nerf, not a buff

chaos can use their own form of commissar so kiting ships can actually kite
but in no way do they need better lances

Oh they very much need better lances. As @Zeblasky mentioned, who cares about crit rate when Chaos lance fleet can't kill the enemy in over 20 minutes, and in that span of time they will get cornered eventually by any half-competent player. For all I care they could get less crit chance if they get reasonable damage.

Besides, in my experience a single lance equipped AdMech ship does crits at a much more annoying rate than Desolator and Acheron combined.

Changing slaughters range to 13500 is a bad idea. It would serve the same function as a carnage.

I would keep it’s speed at 240 to keep it unique but change its hull points to 1400. After all it shares the same armour and hull points and has four batteries just like any cruiser in chaos fleet so it makes no sense why all chaos cruisers don’t go 240 if their all exactly the same chassis as a slaughter.

Secondly I would remove lock on and give it something similar to tracking sense so it can not fire at 13500 range. Basically making it a lightweight close range only cruiser.

It’s currently the no brainer choice if you want to win because of how versatile it is.

last edited by Nin6

@nin6

1400 hp and keep the speed is a good idea.

Slaughter firing @ 13k with lock on is not a problem. Macro dps at this range without reload is garbage. The Slaughter is very much a close range specialist allready. He’s just too cost efficient.

Carnage is a good versatile macro boat and having 200 hp more than a Slaughter would be enough to make it a very competitive choice.

last edited by CanardNoir

@nin6 said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

Changing slaughters range to 13500 is a bad idea. It would serve the same function as a carnage.

I would keep it’s speed at 240 to keep it unique but change its hull points to 1400. After all it shares the same armour and hull points and has four batteries just like any cruiser in chaos fleet so it makes no sense why all chaos cruisers don’t go 240 if their all exactly the same chassis as a slaughter.

Secondly I would remove lock on and give it something similar to tracking sense so it can not fire at 13500 range. Basically making it a lightweight close range only cruiser.

It’s currently the no brainer choice if you want to win because of how versatile it is.

Actually, hmmm, this is a very good idea. But while -200 HP might seem like a strong nerf, it doesn't affect Chaos rushes that much, because it's not their tankiness that wins the games, but overwhelming DPS, maneuverability and easy focus fire. And at the same time -300 or -400 HP seems too harsh. May be -200 HP and minus a few turrets?..

@zeblasky

Actually, hmmm, this is a very good idea. But while -200 HP might seem like a strong nerf, it doesn't affect Chaos rushes that much, because it's not their tankiness that wins the games, but overwhelming DPS...

It's related of course. It's not just a matter of how much dps you have, but how much is your dps vs opponent HP and vice versa. So lowering your fleet hp affect rush in two ways, first a long range fleet don't have to do as much before you get close to have a chance. And a opposing close range fleet have a better chance of killing you before you can kill it. Overall your dps will be lowered too because you will loose your ships quicker.

last edited by CanardNoir

@canardnoir said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

@zeblasky

Actually, hmmm, this is a very good idea. But while -200 HP might seem like a strong nerf, it doesn't affect Chaos rushes that much, because it's not their tankiness that wins the games, but overwhelming DPS...

It's related of course. It's not just a matter of how much dps you have, but how much is your dps vs opponent HP and vice versa. So lowering your fleet hp affect rush in two ways, first a long range fleet don't have to do as much before you get close to have a chance. And the a opposing close range fleet have a better chance of killing you before you can kill it. Overall your dps will be lowered too because you will loose your first ship quicker.

Yes, I know that, and it is a good point. Navy for example would have much better chance to kill such a rush, and they are already favored here thanks to rams and torpedoes. But every time I've faced such a rush playing as a long range fleet, I had trouble killing even a single ship thanks to that fleet maneuverability, huge DPS and Slaanesh shield removing on top. And you can't outrun it at all, Slaughters are too fast for anything. And damaged ships can get to the back of the formation, thus protected by other ships. They are so maneuverable after all. But I did had a lance boat with me, so yea, my be it was jus that my fleet was completely unsuited against fighting an enemy who can catch me too fast.

@zeblasky

I don't use Slaughter that much but when I face them it's very important to scan them very very early. You should start shooting them @ 18 while facing where you want to kite.

With my acheron fleet I need to fuck at least two of them if I want to have a chance.

But everybody speaks about lances being bad etc. In the current meta, close range fleets are more competitive. There's a more global prbl in the meta, long range fleet have a hard time dealing enought damage before getting caught. It has to do with long range weapons efficiency (cost and/or dmg) but it's also related to reload stance +66% dps on macro gun that already deal between 2 and 3 times lances dmg.

If we take chaos for example. Lances are less efficient but acheron is still a competitive ship why? Because of speed. It takes time to kill at range but the acheron can stay at range long enough. But other lances boats can't and are pretty bad right now. So the prbl is lances efficiency depend a lot on the ship chassy and it's tricky to balance. That's why Dev should imo balance ships and faction individualy and not lances as the hole. And since they boost Pulsars and Ad Mech lances I think it's going to be the case.

So you have to look at Executor and desolator and find ways to make them more efficient instead of boosting chaos lances as a hole, because Acheron for example might became OP.

last edited by CanardNoir

@canardnoir said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

If we take chaos for example. Lances are less efficient but acheron is still a competitive ship why? Because of speed.

But Acheron is not really a competitive ship. At best it's kinda okay? Even with his speed he 1) Can still be caught, 2) Is not that impressive considering how much points he costs. I used to take 1 of them in my fleet because sometimes you just really need Long Range AP to oh so slowly kill some armored ships.

@zeblasky

If you take 5 time the same ship and you can achieve leged with this fleet, for me at least, it means that this ship is competitive.

Don't know about your definition of "competitive".

@canardnoir said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

@zeblasky

If you take 5 time the same ship and you can achieve leged with this fleet, for me at least, it means that this ship is competitive.

Don't know about your definition of "competitive".

Yeah, to me competive doesn't mean spam. Balanced fleets should be the goal, where every ship has a useful role to play.

Currently so many ships are just filler as they are just not "spammable" or fit with the meta. Large chunks of the Imp and Chaos roster are just not worth it. The only useful Imp battleship is Retribution.

Exorist is meh. Hades and murder are a waste of space, etc. I love all of the content in this game, so many ships just seem so cool or fun on paper, but once you look a bit closer they are just not worth bringing when compared to others.

@coheed1988

If you can go to the last league of an rts with a spam it has to be competitive, wether its ideal or not.

This is the problem, no other long range ship is competitive right now. If we had another one we could mix it with acheron. But there is none. Give me a good Desolator or a good Executor and I'll gladly stop spamming.

last edited by CanardNoir

@canardnoir

Don't get me wrong, I perfectly understand why it is the way it is, of course people want to win, that is fair.

And yes, I'd love to see competitive builds of every ship, that's what I think will be the ideal balance.

Just hope we can get there.

@canardnoir

I recommend that lock on be removed because, even with 1400 hp, they would still over perform. because of how much damage the merged macro does with AP. Removing lock on would pretty much doom pure slaughter builds to orks, SM, and tyranids. But would still be viable for flanking , and killing isolated ships, and still be viable for head on engagements with support from other ships to compliment their damage and soak up damage.

The problem is, if you nerf the Slaughter, people will just spam Carnage or even Executor and put Chaos closer to trash tier. And then you have another balance thread with another ship.

Another way of doing away with bland one ship fleets is to increase the cost of said ship by a small percent, say two percent cost increase for every ship that is of the same design in the same fleet. So if you take 6 slaughters, the cost overall would be 12 % more. Making , or forcing Mixed fleets. But still allowing two or three of the same design to be cost efficient.

Because lets me honest, its not just Chaos that does it, I see it from Orks, IN, Tyranids, Asuryani.. etc etc bringing one ship fleets . And its boring to play, and boring to play against.

last edited by Nin6

@canardnoir said in Chaos suggestions: Some buffs and one much needed nerf:

@zeblasky

If you take 5 time the same ship and you can achieve leged with this fleet, for me at least, it means that this ship is competitive.

Don't know about your definition of "competitive".

If you are playing under the nickname of Liesanas(he runs 5x Acherons with Slaanesh), then I'm sorry that you are no longer in Legendary x) But yea, even when playing with universal Navy with minimal carrier presence, it's not that hard to kill 5x Acherons. Sure I won't outduel them with Macros, but with right setup it's not that hard to chase the whole fleet down, while tanking shots with Prow Armor(sooooo goood), and then generally superior DPS(even enhanced with Reload), AP, ramming, torpedoes, so many choices. All the while having almost complete point control. And imagine if 5 acheron fleet is playing not vs my Navy, but vs a lot of carriers or just vs Tyranids or vs any Eldar(exept Corsairs, those would have been critted too much probably). In those situations that fleet is almost an auto loss vs a player with a same skill level.

Sure if you just spam a single ability with your whole army, it can feel powerfull, but in this case it's cheesy, too one sided and pretty easily counterable.

Never said I was legendary myself :o

Nevermind, I'm out, you're so full of yourself. Fact is, there are chaos players in the two last leagues with long range fleets. If you can't do the same that's just because you're bad. If you didn't tried you should stop talking about something you don't have a clue about.

@canardnoir Oh, but I can. I used to be on 28 place on the global leaderboard, while playing only long range Chaos. But I've never used 5 Acherons, I've never even used more than 2(and for a pretty short time, that fleet just did not work well, so I usually used just 1), even considering that Acheron lance DPS is probably the most cost effective in the game. All because using 5 Acherons... Is pretty boring, cheesy, one sided and not a good idea in the end.

@CanardNoir afaik zeblasky was playing long range lance chaos in the first game. take a look at the old leaderboard.

last edited by Fosil