Bot AI

Let me just say that I love how you guys sped up the release of patches, which is a great idea, because this way we can help you with feedback as to what's better and what's not (optimazation wise for example).
While we get lots of fixes there's one very problematic area that didn't even get a look and it's the elephant in the room, the bot's aiming mechanics.
I'm just gonna copy-paste it here from the old CTE thread and hopefully it'll get recognition.

Bots aiming:
Unfortunately the bots are still pistol marksmen and out of all my hits in COOP (while playing CTE) 80% were headshots.
I hope this will get fixed soon, because it is just like someone mentioned here before, it's like playing against a random generator. It doesn't matter what guns the bots are using, it can be an old rusty AK with iron sights from the 60s, or it could be a pistol too, they'll eventually pick you off with a headshot even from great range.
If we could get an insight to how your bots' aiming behaviour works, maybe we could try searching for a solution.
Another thing is that when 2 players stand behind each other, one of them will get shot even faster. It's like their chance of getting shot multiplies.

Bots getting shot:
Since weapons in Sandstorm are a lot more underpowered than in the original Insurgency, bots getting shot needs to be properly looked at. Right now I can shoot a bot with a 7.62x51 bullet, his animation does a slight flinch, but he still keeps shooting at me accurately. If you guys won't adjust your bullet damage (and possibly penetration, since I couldn't kill an enemy through a door), you should at least add a wounded animation to the bots.
As of this moment, bots can still sprint on the battlefield, can still shoot accurately even after being shot multiple times.

last edited by Sgt.Kanyo

Just dont lower the difficulty. The bots are easy to outsmart, and even if they attack with a butter knife I would need them to be lethal also at far distance, because as a human player I can kill them across the map if I have line of sight and I would need the bots to be able to do the same or it would end up a cheese party with no real challenge.

@sgt.kanyo Off course the bots should be more lethal when you stay close to a teammate, a shot aimed at him might hit you and vice versa, thats probability used logically and a good feature or am I missing something?

Also the bots dont need more penalties on themselves, they will die if you hit them in rapid succession and kill you if you only give them scratches, bots need to be OP at hitting targets with high accuracy because they lack brains. Thats the whole thing with bots in all games they are so braindead they need some other advantage to pose a threat. Why is that not agreed upon, how else can they be dangerous at all?

No developer is able to give the bots realistic brains, so they need unrealistic shot/aim/accuracy to compensate.

Don't complain about bots having unrealistic aim, because they also have unrealistic brains. If they get realistic aim they will still have unrealistic brains, because no developer in this world is yet capable of creating better "ai" in games.

There I said it in four different ways, hope ppl get this.

last edited by Pacalis

Well shit, make the bots more difficult them. Let's give them headshots only. Where's the fun in not dying.
Thank you for your contribution Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

Just dont lower the difficulty. The bots are easy to outsmart, and even if they attack with a butter knife I would need them to be lethal also at far distance, because as a human player I can kill them across the map if I have line of sight and I would need the bots to be able to do the same or it would end up a cheese party with no real challenge.

Of course, they're easy to outsmart because they're bots. Currently, the bots counter this by joining Faze and murdering you with flick shots.

Also, there are ways to balance bots so that they don't need to do that. Does every bot need to be fucking Shroud?

@sgt.kanyo Off course the bots should be more lethal when you stay close to a teammate, a shot aimed at him might hit you and vice versa, thats probability used logically and a good feature or am I missing something?

Bots are supposed to miss their first few shots; hence, if you're standing right next to a teammate and a bot fires at him, there's a good chance you're getting shot. Ins2014 had this as well.

Also the bots dont need more penalties on themselves, they will die if you hit them in rapid succession and kill you if you only give them scratches, bots need to be OP at hitting targets with high accuracy because they lack brains. Thats the whole thing with bots in all games they are so braindead they need some other advantage to pose a threat. Why is that not agreed upon, how else can they be dangerous at all?

Again, better ways of balancing Cooperative so bots don't snipe you with a Browning HP at 60 meters with a headshot. Currently, a bot with an Alpha AK can run and hipfire you at 100 meters and kill you instantly.

Also, I suppose your definition of "scratches" is "bullets". I shot a bot yesterday in the upper arm with a Mosin-Nagant, and he lived and proceeded to gun me. Back when Sandstorm had a good damage model (which was about six months ago now), I would have taken his fucking arm off.

No developer is able to give the bots realistic brains, so they need unrealistic shot/aim/accuracy to compensate.

Really? No game has had realistic bots?

Don't complain about bots having unrealistic aim, because they also have unrealistic brains. If they get realistic aim they will still have unrealistic brains, because no developer in this world is yet capable of creating better "ai" in games.

Ditto.

There I said it in four different ways, hope ppl get this.

You said... what in four different ways? I can't figure out what your point is here at all.

@sgt-kanyo said in Bot AI:

Well shit, make the bots more difficult them. Let's give them headshots only. Where's the fun in not dying.
Thank you for your contribution Pacalis

This basically spells out the flaw in his argument here.

last edited by MarksmanMax

For example there's the old S.T.A.L.K.E.R. game series, where bots were pretty smart. What they did was upon first contact, they rushed to cover, maybe hide even in the bushes, or maybe throw a grenade at you from cover. They also tried to flank you, or maybe slowly advance to your location. Once you lost sight of them, they actually tried to sneak behind you and shoot up close or once you notice them.
Now the insurgency bot goes ALLAAAHUUU AKBAR and rushes towards your position while full auto shooting like a retard. Now this is very good behaviour for the suicide bombers, but for regular soldiers it's just not realistic.

The bots sometimes can't even hit you from literally (I really do mean literally) 5 meters. It's almost like they start panicking and shooting everywhere. While sometimes they land their first shot perfectly which is 80% of the time a headshot. And when I say their first shot, I mean 0.1 seconds after them noticing you.
And exactly what MarksmanMax said they can snipe you with a pistol. I can't count the number of times I was hidden in the bushes, NOT EVEN shooting and yet Haji McFuckface grabs his little peashooter from 150 meters and kills me instantly.
I'm all for very hard bots, but this is not hard, this is basically a glorified random generator death.

This can all be fixed by adding a zeroing time to bots where once they make contact, (and I don't mean through the keyhole of a door, but I mean when a human being would actually notice someone there) they start shooting at you in small bursts being more and more precise with their shots. This way we can still be killed by a headshot, hell sometimes we will be able to die from the first shot, but that'll be 1 in a million. Not every 2nd time you get shot.

@marksmanmax

  1. yes they need to shot like shroud because they lack brains. Fifth time.

  2. If u are not joking and did not see my point repeated four times the situation might be different for you=D

  3. Why are they supposed to miss their first shots. Human players dont.

  4. yes really no game does it good. Mention one multiplayer game with solid a.i...

  5. mosin is ineffective, too low dmg, thats another discussion when solid alternatives exist. Using a mosin is deliberately increasing difficulty for yourself within current dmg models which is fine. I mean sure they could be tweaked to not use pistols from 250m, but then the problem is bots using pistols at long distance at all, not that they have good aim at long distance.

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

@marksmanmax

  1. yes they need to shot like shroud because they lack brains. Fifth time.

Just because a human isn't controlling the player doesn't mean the player has to be retarded. Technology is improving very fast; we can already create pretty advanced AI without that much trouble.

  1. If u are not joking and did not see my point repeated four times the situation might be different for you=D

The things you did repeat didn't actually add to your argument at all, which basically boils down to "AI = dumb" as far as I can tell. Again, we have technology.

  1. Why are they supposed to miss their first shots. Human players dont.

Oh yeah, because all human players have 100% accuracy. Jesus Christ.

Bot vision is far better than human vision (fixable, but it would require a lot of work) so they miss their first shots because that gives the player a chance to react. If you have this problem with Sandstorm, why aren't you upset about Ins2014 which has the exact same system?

Cooperative is not Competitive. I don't want Coop to be like Comp. I do want hard bots, but there's a distinct difference between "difficult" and "bullshit".

  1. yes really no game does it good. Mention one multiplayer game with solid a.i...

This list is mostly just from the games I own on Steam.

-> Sven Coop (really improves Half-Life AI)

-> Cry of Fear (also drastically improves Half-Life AI)

-> Chivalry: Medieval Warfare

-> Insurgency: Source

-> Any STALKER game (singleplayer, for the most part)

-> Mount & Blade: Warband

-> PAYDAY 2 has decent AI, actually. It's based around Coop, after all.

-> Like, any somewhat-recent Rockstar game. Look at fucking Red Dead Redemption 2.

There are so many issues with #5, I won't even bother quoting the entire thing.

mosin is ineffective, too low dmg...

The Mosin does the most damage out of any firearm in the game.

...thats another discussion when solid alternatives exist. Using a mosin is deliberately increasing difficulty for yourself...

Well, yeah, but the damage isn't the problem there. It's the shit Rate of Fire and the high cost of the Greased Bolt and Stripper Clips.

...within current dmg models which is fine.

debatable.

First of all, you say that the Mosin, the strongest gun in the game, is "too weak" and then you say the damage model is fine. Aight. Makes sense.

I mean sure they could be tweaked to not use pistols from 250m, but then the problem is bots using pistols at long distance at all, not that they have good aim at long distance.

So the problem isn't the fact that they can headshot you from 100 meters with a handgun. Nope. It's the fact that they choose to use a handgun at 100 meters.

First of all, some bots only have pistols. In fact, many of them only have sidearms.

Second, pistols are somewhat viable at range, especially the PF940 and L106A1. The M9 can hold its own as well. That being said, they probably aren't accurate enough to actually hit a headshot at 60 meters.

It's a shame too. I actually have a lot of good ideas for how to balance out the AI and make them fairer while still being effective, but you're so convinced that AI have to be dumbasses for some fucking reason that I won't even waste the time typing it.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax

I don't know what discussion your entangled in bro, but I guess the replies are confusing from the others perspective both ways.

  1. a player is a human and a bot is ai when I am using the terms and do so in all posts. I never said the bots must be retarded but that they are as a matter of fact is in the game industry at this point in time. By all means they have room for improvement, have you seen my signature the last couple of months? I do follow ai in news and programs like alphago shows promise, but i am strictly taking about multiplayer shooters. Devs are not competing hard in making good ai, they mostly focus on pvp because its easier.

2 I am not trying to add to an argument when repeating the same argument in five different ways, I am trying to get one argument across: current ai in multiplayer games is not impressive, thats why devs either make ai bullet sponges or give them shroud aim to compensate. I am not saying that is a good thing, but until they actually make a large imrovement in current ai/bot behaviour there is no other option if you want a challenge and enjoy difficult games.

3 I dont have a problem with it and never said so, I am simply painting out the gray area (a metaphor) because it does not need to be black and white. Good players (humans) mostly hit their target first burst or they would loose against other good players. Trigger control is important to master and what I tried to say was that even if bots occasionally hits you with their first shot it still means it can be an interesting challenge and it doesnt mean something is wrong or broken in that regard. I am not saying all players (humans) hit their first shot, deductive reasoning can be a funny thing ey.

4 I havent heard/played all games you mention, payday 2, ins2014, all stalker games and several rockstar titles I have played. You mention stalker when its not coop, only pvp or singleplayer and so full of bugs pvp version got called back from what I read. You say payday 2 got decent ai you confuse it with scripts. payday 2 ai is as low as its get, thats why the bots are bullet sponges.ins2014 ai are not exactly rocket scientists, but better that the other options which is my point. Arguments about ai in single player games is another ballpark and does not mean much. Browse through my wall of old posts if you can be bothered.

5 Rate of fire dictates damage per second and u said yourself it should be a oneshot in the arm, so compared to rof it should have a higher dmg, though its just subjective, so its just my taste I prefered higher dmg on that weapon.

not gonna bother with the pistol discussion, I dont get what we argue about there. So adding better guns to bots or remove their sidearm option long distance would solve it right.

I hope you post all the ideas you have about ai imrovements, dont be discouraged by me bro, peace and love=)

I'll probably go ahead and make another post actually detailing some ideas about AI (since I feel like it might get lost here).

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

You mention stalker when its not coop, only pvp or singleplayer and so full of bugs pvp version got called back from what I read. You say payday 2 got decent ai you confuse it with scripts. payday 2 ai is as low as its get, thats why the bots are bullet sponges.ins2014 ai are not exactly rocket scientists, but better that the other options which is my point.

To be fair, I did specify STALKER wasn't really cooperative; don't know much about the PvP recall. PAYDAY 2 actually has somewhat-smart AI; at least, they don't necessarily always run at you head-on (although they usually do). Its just that each unit typically has its own scripts and behavior (i.e. Cloakers vs Snipers). They're also not bullet spongy (not after the balance tweaks lmao) unless you're on like Death Wish or above. Sandstorm's current AI is more-or-less Ins2014's AI, with a lot of improvements.

This discussions is a whole lotta nothing, though lmao. At some point we'll be sittin here writing full-length novels.

I'm sorry but who cares wether it's SP only? Bot AI is lines of codes. It's IF statements, it's FOR loops nothing more. How is it relevant wether a game's PvP was bad or not. We're not here to discuss STALKER or any other game.
We're here for bug report and currently the Sandstorm's AI is unacceptable.

@sgt-kanyo

Exactly, so do some bug reporting if you want. In this post you discuss bot difficulty, where the problem is the lack of a suitable difficulty option for those who find it hard, not unacceptable bot ai. Understanding the significant difference in making lifelike bots in singleplayer vs multiplayer games would be a good place to start if you want to brand the ai in itself=)

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

@sgt-kanyo

Exactly, so do some bug reporting if you want. In this post you discuss bot difficulty, where the problem is the lack of a suitable difficulty option for those who find it hard, not unacceptable bot ai. Understanding the significant difference in making lifelike bots in singleplayer vs multiplayer games would be a good place to start if you want to brand the ai in itself=)

Youtube Video

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

In this post you discuss bot difficulty, where the problem is the lack of a suitable difficulty option for those who find it hard...

That's... not the problem. Who said that that was the problem? @Sgt-Kanyo mentioned "bot aiming" and "bot flinching" in his OP; there wasn't anything about "lack of a difficulty option".

Meanwhile, you're over here spouting nonsensical garbage like:

The bots are easy to outsmart, and even if they attack with a butter knife I would need them to be lethal also at far distance...

What, so bots are f*ckin throwing knife ninjas or something? How many shots of vodka did you down before typing this?

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax

You should stick to your strenghts which is discussing the topics your interested in, your arguments may not be as sharp as they sound in your head. If I can be direct with you it is very strange to assume that the words I chose was anything but easy to get metaphors. Here is another metaphor you can ponder: "Are you sure which side of the cage you are standing?"
I cant be offended by you, but fragile folks might. Free tip: why dont you try using real arguments if you disagree, it will get you longer in life both with people of less and more mental resources than yourself.

Bots aiming and flinching are both easy to adjust from a technical point of view. Like done in a few lines of code. When they (the guys adjusting these parameters) land where they do in those adjustments it is often because they see after testing that they have found what they believe might be balanced. These parameters can be changed according to different difficulty levels, hence my choice of words that it is a matter of preferred difficulty. It is not a technical problem but a problem of not taking into account that it needs to be suitable difficulties for differnt people. To give you an example you can test out yourself, in the last game Insurgency 2014 it was a server called BEF. When randoms joined this coop server more than 50% would leave shortly after and never come back. For them it was if the game was bugged, because it was and is a lot harder than the brutal difficulty. But they knew it was a custom server and meant to be like that, so they knew it was chosen at purpose to make the game more difficult. In this game, if you use good coop strategies, the game is not that hard, while for others it might feel "bugged". So why not introduce lower difficulties as alternatives so everyone is happy?

Now wether we call it bugs or whatever is not interesting for me. It is the "I die a lot, therefore the game must be broken" logic that is giving me incentive to reply to these kind of posts because I like difficult games. Like doom ultra nightmare difficulty, that type of difficulty is only for small customer segments, but the type of difficulty I enjoy the most, it is fine to disagree, but I see the solution as introducing more difficulty levels, as the game is more than easy enough as is for certain customer segments. we still need custom servers.

Is anyone enjoying the difficulty as it stands? Is there videos showing ppl plowing through the bots with ease? It is, so the perceived difficulty is subjective.

last edited by Pacalis

To be fair it might be bugs related to internet speed, latency etc that will give buggy experiences for some people, rising storm 2 vietnam has solved this well as it is the only game I can kill ppl in pvp with a ping in the top hundreds, therefore all feedback is valuable, just hope the devs see the difference of what is beard and what is snot ( another metaphor) what is the actual bugs and what is diversions.

@Pacalis I call you out on spouting nonsense, and what do I get? Even f*cking more of it. Jesus, where do I start here...

First of all, thanks for attempting to insult me. You didn't actually base the insult off of anything I said. Doesn't really work.

You should stick to your strenghts which is discussing the topics your interested in

In case you don't seem to realize, I am interested in this topic. That's why I'm still replying to you.

"If I can be direct with you it is very strange to assume that the words I chose was anything but easy to get metaphors."

Either you're not the best at English, you can't type, or you simply don't care, because this sentence alone (where you call me out for failing to understand you) barely makes sense. At all. I'm no grammar Nazi, but I do get annoyed when you fuck up so badly I can't even figure out what you were trying to say.

Free tip: why dont you try using real arguments if you disagree...

In case you haven't realized, I normally do use "real" arguments. However, it's hard to reason with an illogical person.

Also, you basically haven't come up with a real argument for the entirety of this discussion.

Bots aiming and flinching are both easy to adjust from a technical point of view. Like done in a few lines of code.

Welcome to Unreal Engine 4. This isn't exactly Source here. A "few lines of code" isn't exactly accurate. If its that easy, why don't you work for NWI?

When they (the guys adjusting these parameters) land where they do in those adjustments it is often because they see after testing that they have found what they believe might be balanced. These parameters can be changed according to different difficulty levels, hence my choice of words that it is a matter of preferred difficulty.

This is definitely one of the dumbest things I think you've written.

"The bots are currently broken, but this 'difficulty' mechanic has an effect on how broken the bots are, therefore the difficulty mechanic is the root of the problem and not the fact that the bots are broken."

I do have 1400+ hours on Ins2014 and roughly 250 or so on Sandstorm adding up since the CTA. I kinda know how custom servers work.

In this game, if you use good coop strategies, the game is not that hard...

Do you even play Cooperative at all? This statement is completely, factually incorrect.

So why not introduce lower difficulties as alternatives so everyone is happy?

Because the difficulty mechanic isn't the problem?

Now wether we call it bugs or whatever is not interesting for me.

I'm not about to ignore bugs by saying that they're a feature of the game. We're not EA or DICE here.

" It is the "I die a lot, therefore the game must be broken" logic..."

Please, save me some time and quote when I said anything remotely close to this. I'll wait.

I like difficult games. I do. I beat Cry of Fear on Nightmare Mode, for instance (which was basically just hell).

we still need custom servers.

There are custom servers already?

Like doom ultra nightmare difficulty, that type of difficulty is only for small customer segments, but the type of difficulty I enjoy the most...

So you're basing your argument off of your opinion entirely? I normally wouldn't have a problem with that, except for the fact that you're attacking my argument because it's my opinion.

...the game is more than easy enough as is for certain customer segments.

Congrats for not being specific at all; one of the many reasons why your arguments are failing miserably.

...it is fine to disagree...

Says the guy who wrote a full paragraph insulting me.

"Is anyone enjoying the difficulty as it stands? Is there videos showing ppl plowing through the bots with ease? It is, so the perceived difficulty is subjective."

Why are you asking me instead of posting those videos yourself?

Also, literally no one in this entire discussion has agreed with basically anything you've said. That should be a warning sign.

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

To be fair it might be bugs related to internet speed, latency etc that will give buggy experiences for some people...

Just got wired fiber-optic internet, so nope.

...just hope the devs see the difference of what is beard and what is snot ( another metaphor) what is the actual bugs and what is diversions.

Lmao. Nice half-assed insult.

I'm not hoping NWI doesn't listen to you. I don't need to. At this point, I know they aren't.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@MarksmanMax

Yes it is easy to adjust the flinch and aiming of the bots. why in the holy jesus would I want to be a game developer just because I understand some basic principles about programming, I probably earn more than most developers you derp, and you have a problem with metaphors and started insulting me about it calling me drunk, and now you high horsing. Why would I need to make youtube videos of it its already plenty of them. Its fair enough you dont understand what I am writing and mean it doesnt make sense, but why do I care about that, its all pretty straight forward so if you cant comprehend it who cares

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

Yes it is easy to adjust the flinch and aiming of the bots. why in the holy jesus would I want to be a game developer just because I understand some basic principles about programming...

Okay, so if you know some basic principles about programming and such, can you actually explain why that would be easy?

I probably earn more than most developers you derp, and you have a problem with metaphors and started insulting me about it calling me drunk, and now you high horsing.

Really? Are you trying to brag about your real-life accomplishments on the internet? No one fucking cares. Leave that on Twitter.

"High Horsing: Arrogantly believing oneself superior to others, often by putting down large groups of people." I've literally done neither of these things. In fact, so far you've put down everyone who disagrees with you, meaning not only are you the one "high horsing" but you're also a hypocrite.

Why would I need to make youtube videos of it its already plenty of them.

I meant "link videos that people already made" not "make one yourself".

Its fair enough you dont understand what I am writing and mean it doesnt make sense...

its all pretty straight forward so if you cant comprehend it who cares

These both contradict each other.

It's also quite a funny coincidence that no one else in this forum seems to be able to comprehend what you're saying either, don't you think?

Also, you didn't even address anything I said, really. Just trying desperately to defend your self-esteem.

EDIT: Let me sum up your posts so maybe you'll understand.

You keep telling me that I'm wrong without actually telling me why. Almost every "fact" that you're using to back up your arguments is objectively false, and everything else is your opinion and no one else's. You've been accusing other people for things you do yourself, and you don't seem to have the ability to understand things from other people's points of view and will never seem to accept or even consider someone's else's position over your own.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax

My background is in engineering, math and physics, using matlab and having no time or patience to pick up coding.
Both Math and coding is similar in the way that it is very logical, so by learning math at university level you can understand several principles of coding as coding is also very logical. I also know coders and in engineering you learn to use a lot of formulas that is making coding looking a lot less confusing in general.

I did fool around in fallout 4 creation kit just to see how that worked (nuclear shelter 077b) is a free mod I made there if u wanna download it. But the "coding" I did there was extremely trivial as I just used some basics in the creation kit.

When you have defined a behaviour in bots that makes it aim and shot, defined cooldowns until firing and whatnot, you have used the premade tools in ue4 or made software that supplements the engine. (Good programmers will not only use the premade stuff as it will not be suited for all needs).

So we have gotten to a place where the bots work as they do now. Then it would be logical that they simply have a hit ratio defined as a parameter for how often the bot will hit the player when the player is in sight or other similar conditions are met. Like if the sound of the player which for the bot will probably be read like closer than xyz coordinate in a certain radius from the player etc.

The coders can add all kinds of layers to this, like the bot shoting in the general xyz direction of player and having hit probabilities in the area close to the player etc.

Somewhere in this lines of codes there will be numbers in percentage where 0 is no chance and 1 is a clear hit or a distribution of areas across the body of the player or similar mechanics (can be many layers). In the ue4 you can probably adjust many of these numbers just by changing the value of the numbers to increase or decrease the hit chance in easy to look at displays by default, as it is quicker to navigate and more user friendly than only looking at lines of code. Most devs would and should define a bunch of their own layers to suit their game, sometimes even having another gameengine working together with the ue4 engine. You can see many features of ue4 just by accessing a bunch of tutorials free online and looking in their forums.

So the devs will most probably have the possibility of just changing many of the different hit probabilities by changing a few numbers like adjusting a number for bot reaction time in seconds, the time a bot is staggered, how often it hits a certain area etc just by adjusting a few parameters-> Thats what I already said earlier and is why I mean it is not a lot of work to change many those parameters with the effect of changing the difficulty of the bots.

If the bots have zero ms delay and the players have x ms delay (no matter how fast your internet connection is you will have a significant delay compared to what happens in the server) it can create a challenge for the devs to make a system that accounts for different players having different delays and whatnot, so bugs can occur also here, and I was not referring to anyone in particular when you thought I talked about your internet connection.

The reason I dont adress all your questions or accusations as I would call some of it is because it doesnt make sense.
For example you say I am contradicting myself when saying that it is fair enough you dont understand what I write, and also I am saying its pretty straight forward so if u cant comprehend it who cares. There is no contradiction there, I am simply saying it is okey to not understand what I write, after all a huge percentage of the population dont even believe in climate change, but even if someone dont understand, I cant be responsible of needing to clearify every sentence I write as it is everyones business of reading up on subjects that interest them themselves ey=)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mE9ZI7VhzWw

youtube video found by doing the heavy lifting of writing ins sand coop in search field. @MarksmanMax i can also make a more comprehensive guide on how to do it yourself if you want. Hope this answered your question where you wanted me to find videos of the not difficult coop. video was the top result, its a bit boring to watch if u know the game (I know you have a lot of hours, so this sentence was not directed at you specifically). enjoy

last edited by Pacalis