Bot AI

@marksmanmax said in Bot AI:

Welcome to Unreal Engine 4. This isn't exactly Source here. A "few lines of code" isn't exactly accurate.

Okay, so if you know some basic principles about programming and such, can you actually explain why that would be easy?

Are you still of this opinion or did my previous answer clarify? Here is an example for you on the user friendly unreal engine. You can also search 1000s of other topics free on the web. I can make a more comprehensive guide for you if u want:

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Animation/AnimHowTo/AimOffset

last edited by Pacalis

@MarksmanMax

I said: "Is anyone enjoying the difficulty as it stands? Is there videos showing ppl plowing through the bots with ease? It is, so the perceived difficulty is subjective."

You answered: Why are you asking me instead of posting those videos yourself?

Clarification:
I did not ask you. If you read all three sentences you can notice I answer the question myself. This is known as rhetorical questions.

On a.i. in other shooters, you made a list. I will look at it here:

-> Sven Coop (really improves Half-Life AI) * Do you have any video examples? "Sven Co-op is an eclectic collection of user-created Half-Life maps that did one crucial thing differently: it allowed players to explore those maps together, battling AI enemies and solving simple environmental problems as a team."
All games based of half life can have similar ai as ins2014, as ins 2014 is also based of half-life. I havent played sven coop. Its after all 17 years old and there is many versions from it as I understand. Which version have this good A.I that you mention? Does it not have the same problems as half life ai and ins2014 ai?

https://kotaku.com/the-people-who-have-spent-17-years-perfecting-co-op-hal-1767029543

Cry of Fear (also drastically improves Half-Life AI) *video below is a complete coop playthrough, I failed to find encounters with any smart ai, though I could never look at it all as it was not my type of game. Please highlight encounters with good ai or provide other examples if you like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2IBKrTR0aw
-> Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
Youtube Video

https://steamcommunity.com/app/219640/discussions/0/611701999529253886/
Comment from community manager of the game.
"Bots are only in the game for testing purposes. This is a multiplayer only game the fact that there are bots is a miracle in itself."

-> Mount & Blade: Warband
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfz4Cfe92D8
Do I need to comment here?

-> PAYDAY 2 has decent AI, actually. It's based around Coop, after all. *You sure its decent compared to NWI?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwKXcz0Ncs
Comment on video is by Generalmcbadass, 1 of the most respected players in the payday community. You can here see he is also talking about bullet sponges.

Not [multiplayer coop] = irrelevant. (takes some reading to understand why it is irrelevant though, I could dig up an old post if you don't like to read about those differences in the source material by learning about a.i. in different games.)
Any STALKER game (singleplayer, for the most part) * Only singleplayer or pvp, no coop.

End note: Do you want me to continue to answer all your questions as you asked me to, or did my answers suffice? I could make a post about differences between coop multiplayer ai and singlelayer ai if you don't see the significant difference - >The differences are numerous. For example in coop you have multiple human players and the bots must use tactics viable against groups, so all "a.i" resources can not be focused on one single blob of coordinates as the enemy - This in itself should tell you a lot. In singleplayer games you can also use trigger points to a large degree, which is an action happening when you step on a certain area etc ->scripted events like that helps cover flaws of ai.

btw: I love the stalker series its one of my favourite games of all time, though I mostly played those games with mods. Misery (https://www.moddb.com/mods/stalker-misery) is my favourite, though based on your feedback you will hate it tremendously, it is the hardest (singleplayer) game I have played, excluding ironman runs in for example doom (havent finished one) 🙂

last edited by Pacalis

@MarksmanMax
QUOTE from u:

EDIT: Let me sum up your posts so maybe you'll understand.
You keep telling me that I'm wrong without actually telling me why. Almost every "fact" that you're using to back up your arguments is objectively false, and everything else is your opinion and no one else's.

Answer:
Still of this opinion or did my last few posts clarify?

QUOTE from u:

You've been accusing other people for things you do yourself, and you don't seem to have the ability to understand things from other people's points of view and will never seem to accept or even consider someone's else's position over your own.

Answer:
Other people is currently approx 7.7 billion, most other people I encounter both professionally and socially does not give me that kind of feedback. Communication is a vital part of my real job, I would quickly lose my job if your statement was true=)

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mE9ZI7VhzWw

youtube video found by doing the heavy lifting of writing ins sand coop in search field. @MarksmanMax i can also make a more comprehensive guide on how to do it yourself if you want. Hope this answered your question where you wanted me to find videos of the not difficult coop. video was the top result, its a bit boring to watch if u know the game (I know you have a lot of hours, so this sentence was not directed at you specifically). enjoy

It helps that that guy's PC can run the game at 60 FPS on maxed settings.

Also, GOOD FUCKING JOB LMAO. In this exact video at about 17:03 the guy dies to direct Dshk AI aimbot bullshit. Not only that, but said Dshk bot basically wipes the entire team with aimbot. The last guy dies from a Molotov direct impact. GG.

Maybe watch the videos you post before using them as proof that the AI are balanced, or aren't bullshit, or whatever fucking point you're even trying to make that I still don't understand.

Are you still of this opinion or did my previous answer clarify?

I still gotta pick apart that bullshit argument. I'll do it after this post.

Here is an example for you on the user friendly unreal engine.

Name one FPS game on UE4 that's not Fortnite that doesn't have bugs or sh*t optimization. Fucking hell, even Fortnite has problems.

Clarification:
I did not ask you.

Clearly, you did, as I'm the only person actually still talking to you lmao.

This is known as rhetorical questions.

Yeah, but either you expected an answer from someone else or you decided to write out a question and answer it yourself with no evidence to back it up. The second one is stupid, so I chose the first one. Guess I was wrong.

-> Sven Coop (really improves Half-Life AI) * Do you have any video examples?

For general AI improvements, you could look up the Sven Coop enemies list to see changes and shit. Now, obviously, the AI isn't the best, as well as Cry of Fear, but considering the release dates of those engines, the AI is pretty impressive.

All games based of half life can have similar ai as ins2014, as ins 2014 is also based of half-life.

I thought you didn't have a problem with Ins2014 AI, though... so...?

Half-Life AI, in particular, would often just lose targets completely. Cry of Fear fixed that which made some already-hard enemies (Sawrunner) nightmare fuel. There's other stuff, too.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/219640/discussions/0/611701999529253886/
Comment from community manager of the game.
"Bots are only in the game for testing purposes. This is a multiplayer only game the fact that there are bots is a miracle in itself."

Lmao. Good job citing a comment that was posted four years ago.

-> Mount & Blade: Warband
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfz4Cfe92D8
Do I need to comment here?

Good job cherrypicking the worst combat scenario in-game without focusing on anything else, like, you know, the actual combat system. Good job.

Also, he must've shot the archers already, too, as he would be dead doing that otherwise.

Not [multiplayer coop] = irrelevant. (takes some reading to understand why it is irrelevant though, I could dig up an old post if you don't like to read about those differences in the source material by learning about a.i. in different games.)
Any STALKER game (singleplayer, for the most part) * Only singleplayer or pvp, no coop.

Why? They're still AI. AI doesn't exactly change much from a singleplayer game to a multiplayer one; there's just more time and money involved in the development of singleplayer games' AI as that's the main focus.

-> PAYDAY 2 has decent AI, actually. It's based around Coop, after all. *You sure its decent compared to NWI?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwKXcz0Ncs
Comment on video is by Generalmcbadass, 1 of the most respected players in the payday community. You can here see he is also talking about bullet sponges.

Man, great job on this one. You do realize he's talking about AI teammates, and not AI enemies, right? Kind of invalidates your entire point there. This discussion is about AI enemies, not AI teammates.

Also, teammate AI can most definitely die in PAYDAY 2.

End note: Do you want me to continue to answer all your questions as you asked me to, or did my answers suffice?

Not really. Those were pretty sh*t comebacks; either they didn't make sense, were outdated, or were just blatantly about the wrong thing entirely.

This in itself should tell you a lot. In singleplayer games you can also use trigger points to a large degree, which is an action happening when you step on a certain area etc ->scripted events like that helps cover flaws of ai.

But... doesn't PAYDAY 2 use a lot of scripts, too? And trigger points? That's not a singleplayer game.

Misery (https://www.moddb.com/mods/stalker-misery) is my favourite, though based on your feedback you will hate it tremendously, it is the hardest (singleplayer) game I have played

I mean, I'm just trash at STALKER in general lmao.

Also, I'm not really sure why you'd say I hate it, because I said earlier:

I like difficult games. I do. I beat Cry of Fear on Nightmare Mode, for instance (which was basically just hell).

Answer:
Still of this opinion or did my last few posts clarify?

Lmao, you really failed to clarify much, so yeah. Haven't changed what I believe at all.

Answer:
Other people is currently approx 7.7 billion, most other people I encounter both professionally and socially does not give me that kind of feedback. Communication is a vital part of my real job, I would quickly lose my job if your statement was true=)

Actually, no. If you understood something called "context" you'd realize that "other people" is currently "Me / Kanyo". Answer that question instead.

Better yet, maybe have some comebacks to everything I actually said, as you didn't even comment on half of it. Here are just some things I assume I'm correct on (as you didn't reply):

Bot vision is far better than human vision (fixable, but it would require a lot of work) so they miss their first shots because that gives the player a chance to react. If you have this problem with Sandstorm, why aren't you upset about Ins2014 which has the exact same system?

First of all, you say that the Mosin, the strongest gun in the game, is "too weak" and then you say the damage model is fine. Aight. Makes sense.

So the problem isn't the fact that they can headshot you from 100 meters with a handgun. Nope. It's the fact that they choose to use a handgun at 100 meters.

First of all, some bots only have pistols. In fact, many of them only have sidearms.

Second, pistols are somewhat viable at range, especially the PF940 and L106A1. The M9 can hold its own as well. That being said, they probably aren't accurate enough to actually hit a headshot at 60 meters.

You actually said that you'd refuse to comment on this one at all, even though I have a point I'm making here. GG.

To be fair, I did specify STALKER wasn't really cooperative; don't know much about the PvP recall. PAYDAY 2 actually has somewhat-smart AI; at least, they don't necessarily always run at you head-on (although they usually do). Its just that each unit typically has its own scripts and behavior (i.e. Cloakers vs Snipers). They're also not bullet spongy (not after the balance tweaks lmao) unless you're on like Death Wish or above. Sandstorm's current AI is more-or-less Ins2014's AI, with a lot of improvements.

You didn't comment on anything here (except the bullet sponginess, but you actually didn't talk about enemies at all lmao).

What, so bots are f*ckin throwing knife ninjas or something? How many shots of vodka did you down before typing this?

First of all, thanks for attempting to insult me. You didn't actually base the insult off of anything I said. Doesn't really work.

In case you don't seem to realize, I am interested in this topic. That's why I'm still replying to you.

Either you're not the best at English, you can't type, or you simply don't care, because this sentence alone (where you call me out for failing to understand you) barely makes sense. At all. I'm no grammar Nazi, but I do get annoyed when you fuck up so badly I can't even figure out what you were trying to say.

In case you haven't realized, I normally do use "real" arguments. However, it's hard to reason with an illogical person.

Also, you basically haven't come up with a real argument for the entirety of this discussion.

This is definitely one of the dumbest things I think you've written.

"The bots are currently broken, but this 'difficulty' mechanic has an effect on how broken the bots are, therefore the difficulty mechanic is the root of the problem and not the fact that the bots are broken."

"So why not introduce lower difficulties as alternatives so everyone is happy?" Because the difficulty mechanic isn't the problem?

I'm not about to ignore bugs by saying that they're a feature of the game. We're not EA or DICE here.

"It is the "I die a lot, therefore the game must be broken" logic..." Please, save me some time and quote when I said anything remotely close to this. I'll wait.

"...we still need custom servers." There are custom servers already?

So you're basing your argument off of your opinion entirely? I normally wouldn't have a problem with that, except for the fact that you're attacking my argument because it's my opinion.

Congrats for not being specific at all; one of the many reasons why your arguments are failing miserably.

" ...it is fine to disagree..." Says the guy who wrote a full paragraph insulting me.

Also, literally no one in this entire discussion has agreed with basically anything you've said. That should be a warning sign.

Really? Are you trying to brag about your real-life accomplishments on the internet? No one fucking cares. Leave that on Twitter.

"High Horsing: Arrogantly believing oneself superior to others, often by putting down large groups of people." I've literally done neither of these things. In fact, so far you've put down everyone who disagrees with you, meaning not only are you the one "high horsing" but you're also a hypocrite.

These both contradict each other.

It's also quite a funny coincidence that no one else in this forum seems to be able to comprehend what you're saying either, don't you think?

Also, you didn't even address anything I said, really. Just trying desperately to defend your self-esteem.

Have fun with this post!

last edited by MarksmanMax

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

@marksmanmax

My background is in engineering, math and physics, using matlab and having no time or patience to pick up coding.
Both Math and coding is similar in the way that it is very logical, so by learning math at university level you can understand several principles of coding as coding is also very logical. I also know coders and in engineering you learn to use a lot of formulas that is making coding looking a lot less confusing in general.

That's a long-winded way of saying you don't know how to code.

I did fool around in fallout 4 creation kit just to see how that worked (nuclear shelter 077b) is a free mod I made there if u wanna download it. But the "coding" I did there was extremely trivial as I just used some basics in the creation kit.

Again, very little coding experience.

When you have defined a behaviour in bots that makes it aim and shot, defined cooldowns until firing and whatnot, you have used the premade tools in ue4 or made software that supplements the engine. (Good programmers will not only use the premade stuff as it will not be suited for all needs).

As far as I'm aware, NWI literally built everything from scratch. There's even a joke Alex made with another team member about him modeling a trash bag.

So we have gotten to a place where the bots work as they do now. Then it would be logical that they simply have a hit ratio defined as a parameter for how often the bot will hit the player when the player is in sight or other similar conditions are met. Like if the sound of the player which for the bot will probably be read like closer than xyz coordinate in a certain radius from the player etc.

The coders can add all kinds of layers to this, like the bot shoting in the general xyz direction of player and having hit probabilities in the area close to the player etc.

You know all of this with your "zero UE4 coding experience" how exactly?

In the ue4 you can probably adjust many of these numbers..."

Probably? Again, you're just telling me that you have no idea how UE4 coding works.

So the devs will most probably have the possibility...

Again, you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. You have "most probably" and possibility" in the same sentence? Where's the confidence?

Thats what I already said earlier and is why I mean it is not a lot of work to change many those parameters with the effect of changing the difficulty of the bots.

This statement only works if you're actually correct about how the system works. Chances are, you aren't.

I was not referring to anyone in particular when you thought I talked about your internet connection.

Guess what? You're only talking to me.

The reason I dont adress all your questions or accusations as I would call some of it is because it doesnt make sense.

Huh. That's a funny way of avoiding responsibility.

"For example you say I am contradicting myself when saying that it is fair enough you dont understand what I write, and also I am saying its pretty straight forward so if u cant comprehend it who cares."

Yeah. That contradiction is correct. Won't quote what you said afterwards as that doesn't clear up the contradiction at all.

It's never bad to admit that you're wrong. In fact, at some point, you're better off doing that than trying to fight a losing battle.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax

We think very differently, I will try to leave out all text that is just noise in that regard and stay on the topics. For me this is not a battle.

What I have said about ue4 and programming here was trying to tell u about principles about adjusting parameters that is common in games without in any way trying to pretend I am sure exactly how NWI have solved it, just probabilities.

I said the a.i. is bad in the gaming industry in general and that devs use godlike aim on the bots to compensate - I don't have a problem with that, both in Ins2014 and in Sandstorm. What I have said is that I didn't want the devs to lower the difficulty because it [the difficulty] is not bugged from my point of view, it is merely the devs doing a good job compensating in the current situation we have with stupid a.i. in the whole gaming industry. I think they do that in a fun way, that is why I replied to the post by kanyo to begin with. I think very good aim from the bots is a necessity on higher difficulties.

Did not watch the whole video myself, just skimmed through some parts of it. Like I said watching the whole thing would be boring for me. I looked at the highlight u mentioned at 17mins in the sandstorm video and I find no bugs in the way the player dies - And that is the core of where I was going with my reply to begin with. The player looks at the door where his teammate died being open (blind) from both right side and behind, he then see a bot at his right side and goes for a shot but fails to kill the bot. He then keeps staying in the same position and looks away from the bot to his left door again and gets killed - That is the kind of difficulty I enjoy playing at, and he made several mistakes in that situation he could work on improving - Or he could play at a more suitable difficulty for him if he does not enjoy that kind of challenge. There can never be proof of balanced difficulty when difficulty is subjective, what I am trying to show is that it exists customer segments that enjoy that difficulty and that it should remain as an option. @Flair had a recent post that said it quite well imo.

I am not cherry picking examples from the games you mention, I simply just don't have the time to spend hours looking for them, so I tried finding some relevant videos. I would like to see more relevant examples that you may know of from the same games if you find the time to post them here, I am genuinely interested to see some cool bot behaviour somewhere.

I am aware the payday 2 video focused on team a.i. , a.i. is a problem in shooting games no matter the side they are on. I also think payday 2 is a fun game and played it quite much, I still think it is not very good a.i. wise both on the team and on the enemy side. The enemies shows up in extremely large numbers and are bullet sponges on the higher difficulties exactly for the reason that they cant make better a.i.- Stupid a.i. is not necessarily a problem when a game is fun to play. I never said scripts are not used also in multiplayer games, by all means they are - bots being spawned in to strategic positions when you have capped a point in Sandstorm is an example - What I tried to address was that people who complains about a.i. in multiplayer games and use singleplayer games as a reference have some standards and benchmarks of what good a.i. is, that the multiplayer coop games still haven't figured out, so comparing those types of games is misleading.

I looked at two vids made by Worth a buy (wab) today of brand new games 2019ish , new metro game (at least 1 stalker dev worked on that title) and the division 2. Both games are new and have according to dear old Mack poor a.i. - As I said it is a situation across the whole gaming industry with bad a.i. and I think NWI solves bad a.i. in a brilliant way with what they have to work with (compensating with bot aim being very good) - Ins2014 and Day of Infamy is both really good games, and I just hope NWI will keep having at least 1 high difficulty option (hopefully a higher max difficulty than they had in ins2014).

From u, about pistols:
"So the problem isn't the fact that they can headshot you from 100 meters with a handgun. Nope. It's the fact that they choose to use a handgun at 100 meters.
First of all, some bots only have pistols. In fact, many of them only have sidearms.
Second, pistols are somewhat viable at range, especially the PF940 and L106A1. The M9 can hold its own as well. That being said, they probably aren't accurate enough to actually hit a headshot at 60 meters.
You actually said that you'd refuse to comment on this one at all, even though I have a point I'm making here. GG."

From me about pistol:
Bots could be tweaked to not use pistols at unrealistic distance, that would solve the situation for players that like the challenge of bots able to oneshot from long distance at the high difficulty I hope stays as an option. I did not mean to refuse any point you had, I just did not have anything more to add. You seem to have a lot more knowledge than me on weapons. Maybe the devs could take the different realistic ranges that applies for pistols into account and solve the bug that you have noticed in this regard?

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

Did not watch the whole video myself, just skimmed through some parts of it. Like I said watching the whole thing would be boring for me. I looked at the highlight u mentioned at 17mins in the sandstorm video and I find no bugs in the way the player dies...

Are you fucking kidding me? This in and of itself is the problem. If you can't see that this is a problem, I'm not gonna even bother talking to you. It's just a waste of my time.

Literally, the single fucking frame that the guy on the Dshk had to see that player inside was the same frame where he instakilled him.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax

I know a lot of people see it like you because difficulty is subjective. I did not need to even watch the whole video because I know the game is quite solid already, I can trust the game being itself without needing to cherrypick a video for demonstration. Cherrypicking is a bad thing remember. Imagine a difficulty scenario ( a situation u can meet in the game) that is impossible for 100% of gamers. All the gamers will agree that it is impossible. Now imagine a difficulty scenario (still a situation that u can meet in the game) that is impossible for 80% of gamers. Now most people will agree with u that it is bullshit and impossible, just a few gamers here and there (20% for example) will tell you the game is fine. Now most people will agree with you and maybe say this guy have no idea what he talks about. Sounds familiar? ( No answer needed).

I made a link to the same video where we discussed the death at 17:03 and will go as far as saying there is not even close to being a unfair death in this situation from my subjective point of view, because the death could have been avoided. The player had room to improve in mutiple ways. I rewatched the death again more closely because I thought maybe I had overseen something because of your reply, but no, not in this case. You can slow the video down in youtube settings if the kill feels instant;)

Lets walk through the situation one more time:

at 16:58 the bot reveals itself by opening the door
at 16:59 he attempts to shot the bot first time.
at 17:01 he sees the bot for the second time but hesitates and does not shot
at 17:02 he shots at the same bot a second time but misses
at 17:02 he looks away from the bot to his left again.
at 17:03 he gets killed by the bot. The same bot he first saw at 16:58

All the time he stays at the same position. He has made a lot of noise at 16:59 and the bots are aware of his position. His choice to stay still is relying on luck.

He have had 3 chances to kill the bot but failed each time. This is not an instakill by any definition, this one actually extends for approx 5 seconds which is a lot for this game in many cases.

Youtube Video

I'm going to wade in here a little. I have to agree that the bot AI is underwhelming, and inconsistent. I play a lot of co-op matches with my friend, and the bots are 'dumb' for the most part and sniper elites for the other parts.

I've lost count of the times where the bots have seen one of my character's pixels and shot at it form the other side of the map and through trees (slight exaggeration) , I've been tracked through a wall (i'm convinced of that) and 180'd headshot.

But, I've also witnessed lines of bots running through molotovs and incendiary grenades to get to a location/target. I've seen bots miss from point blank range, completely ignore players, stare at walls while gunfire is raining down around them run in single file only to get mowed down.

There is no consistency in which the bots play, they either top elite snipers with god vision or Simple Jack's more stupid brother.

I want the bots to take effective cover, i want them to suppress me, i want them to flank. I'd even be happy for them to learn my play style and counter it. This is supposed to be a hardcore tactical shooter, it isn't supposed to be easy and right now people are doing speed runs through co op matches.

last edited by Crackedfingers

@crackedfingers Yeah. it's not that bots are really OP; they're just horribly inconsistent. One of the many reasons I quit Escape From Tarkov was how horrible the consistency was on the Scavs. With the new AI Raiders faction, it's an even bigger problem.

@crackedfingers

So is the inconsisty made on purpose to create variety in "bot difficulty" or something else. Personally and subjectively I would prefer them all being elites. Bots are most often easy to make counter tactics against also at higher difficulties, but if players meet the slow bots and the elite bots in a variety, it may elude players in to a false sense of control when experiencing dominating bots in some cases and being owned in other cases. Thanks for your perspective, Im glad someone can say speedrunning is actually a thing here.

It's not on purpose, or I hope it isn't.

The two extremes are "so dumb that they can't shoot someone in front of them" or "instant headshots through walls", and neither of those are fun to play against.

The problem is that it's way more effective to just run around, hip firing and quick-scoping bots on the run, than it is to move slowly and tactically.

I'd rather the difficulty make it harder for me to play based on increasing challenge, and not just be "increase chance of a wall hack headshot by 40%".

@pacalis I have no idea as to the reason for the bot AI's lack of consistency. I'm not sure if it's intentional, or if it's a by-product of their coding, or something else. As a player of video games I know that I don't like the current AI and the way they behave. I want to feel challenged during a Co op game (increasing the bot's accuracy just doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid).

As for speed running - ruins the game for me

Unfortunately this issue still persist as mentioned in the first post, althought I might have seen some improvement, once again when I was playing as a gunner, proning about 150 meters away from the enemy, once again I got 1 shotted by a bot.

Another thing I noticed more often since the new update, is that I got shot 2 times through the wall.
One of them was like I hid behind a wall after being shot at and when I stopped behind a wall I got shot (not killed, just shot), which could be because of lag (although I always get around 50 ms ping at worst).
The other time it was through an opening that should not have been there. There's a destroyed wall with a window and I was at an angle where the window was not visible and still I got shot through that. It was on Farmhouse and that wall is located somewhere between objective B and C I think.

Might I suggest a solution. Instead of having random headshots, which can be quite jarring for the player, instead have the bots aim in a more generalised manner, with accuracy going down or up depending on the weapon they're using. This way, the bots aren't insanely good marksmen while at the same time being much fairer as opponents for the player.

There's other ways to improve the challenge posed by bots, such as making them use beaten zones and 'dig in' when defending, or making them focus more on suppressing the player when attacking instead of running around trying to use their MGs like rifles. This is certainly possible, since AI from DoI apparelty did all this.

This way, the boys feel fairer and more fun as opponents, while also being a more satisfying challenge due to better tactics on their part, which also forces players to actually use better tactics of their own, such as calling in smoke and flashing points before entering them.

@cool_lad
On your second paragraph/idea. There is a lot of other ways to improve the a.i. and it could use a lot of work in that regard as all multiplayer coop games currently do=)

Your first paragraph regarding accuracy where you mention random headshots, and what is considered fair or jarring for the player I would mention that this is subjective and should first and foremost be fixed with suitable difficulty settings that can be voted on so that players can experience what they themselves regards as fair, fun or jarring.

Way too much speedrunning in my opinion as well, and it makes it unplayable because the game feels so outrageously easy for me subjectively and I have zero patience for easy games where death ratio is low and every headless chicken can work their way across the finish line=)

Also what do you mean by accuracy when you want to avoid random headshots from bots, you mean tunnel sighting on certain areas with cooldowns?

You seen this?:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

EDIT: Not that it is anything wrong with lower difficulty, less headshotting bots or people being able to rush maps. It is just subjectively not what I prefer and a solid game should envelope that as well.

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Bot AI:

@crackedfingers

Personally and subjectively I would prefer them all being elites.

Yep, we need difficulty option.
That way some people could choose to play vs easy bots and others vs hard bots or insane difficulty, who cares? As long as the USERS have the CHOICE!
So that way we could have some consistency.
Its horrible right now.

I thought about reviving a topic from march, to emphasize how much this issue has NOT been fixed.
The thread (and many like it) speaks for itself.

the bots are completely broken as always, i am still waiting for them to be fixed in any way

last edited by Grave