Bolt-Action Rifles...

Currently, they're not very good. They're almost completely outclassed and there honestly isn't much reason to use them. Even modding out a bolt-action costs you more than just buying a semi-auto rifle that does the job better:

Youtube Video

-> Possibly making the Mosin bolt just a bit faster as it's lengthy at the moment, even with a Greased Bolt.

-> You can't cycle the bolt on a Mosin while holding your sights on-target, even though you can with the M24. I think the Mosin bolt-cycling should work just like the M24 works.

-> Making the Greased Bolt and Stripper Clips 2 and 1 supply, respectively. A Mosin with Stripper Clips costs the same as an SVD, and the SVD is a much better gun.

-> Reloading is extremely slow. Loading even one bullet takes about 5 seconds, which is insanity. However, reloading when the gun is empty skips an animation that greatly lengthens the reload time. Personally, I think that animation just shouldn't exist at all.

Bolt-action rifles are already balanced out with lower fire rate, mag capacity, and longer reload times than semi-auto rifles. The reload times and firerate could stand to be a bit better, as bolt-actions are currently extremely slow for no reason at all.

Yah. To a point bolts will always be inferior if the game is going to maintain any amount of realism. The only place bolt actions rifles shine these days is long range precision shooting - which just isn't a factor in this game. But, I still agree with most points. The greased bolt upgrade should just go away, it makes no real sense, and all bolt animations should be sped up. And bolt guns and accessories need a supply cost reduction, they should always be cheaper than the equivalent semi-auto options.

@marksmanmax said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

-> You can't cycle the bolt on a Mosin while holding your sights on-target, even though you can with the M24. I think the Mosin bolt-cycling should work just like the M24 works.

This is realistic. The shape of the Mosin bolt does not allow for the shooter to keep a sight picture while open. The 700 by comparison was designed specifically so that you could maintain a view through a scope while cycling the bolt.

Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to buffing the bolties, seeing how as even with these buffs they'd probably still be outclassed by their self loading counterparts. I think Day of Infamy had a pretty good balance between automatics (granted they were mostly SMGs) and bolt actions where the latter were much more affordable even with the bells and whistles at the cost have having you pants down between shots.
While potentially deadly, this wasn't as big of a deal in DoI because the rifles were operated at a much faster speed; typically you'd at least get at a few shots off before someone closed in.

So in Sandstorm, where everyone and their mother's got a rifle + extended mags + 2x sight + pistol + underbarrel GL + pizza slicer + laser sight, the M24 and Mosin would still be meme guns, but at least semi-effective meme guns in the right hands.

Alternatively, we could go full Day of Infamy... but I think bayonets are worthy of their own discussion
alt text

@maa_bunny said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

This is realistic. The shape of the Mosin bolt does not allow for the shooter to keep a sight picture while open. The 700 by comparison was designed specifically so that you could maintain a view through a scope while cycling the bolt.

Not sure if that's realistic, but if it is, I think it might be acceptable to throw realism out the window here in favor of game balance.

The greased bolt upgrade should just go away, it makes no real sense, and all bolt animations should be sped up. And bolt guns and accessories need a supply cost reduction, they should always be cheaper than the equivalent semi-auto options.

I could get behind this. Back in Day of Infamy especially, it was always cheaper to run a bolt-action over semi-auto weapons, even with a bunch of mods.

@tyrannosauruswex said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

...the M24 and Mosin would still be meme guns, but at least semi-effective meme guns in the right hands.

Well, the bolt-actions in Ins2014 were outclassed by other options, but they were cheap, effective, and just overall fun as fuck to use.

@tyrannosauruswex said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

Alternatively, we could go full Day of Infamy... but I think bayonets are worthy of their own discussion

Bayonets might actually be in-game one day. I think there's bayonets in the Admin menu for weapons.

@marksmanmax said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

Bayonets might actually be in-game one day. I think there's bayonets in the Admin menu for weapons.

As far as I can tell they are just knife/kukri reskins in their current state, probably to be added as unlocks in a future update. As for on the gun itself, that SKS bayonet is just mocking me

To be fair, the days of bolt action rifles have long passed; the last time they were used as a mainstay infantry weapon was WW2 and even then they were inadequate for the job.

One thing I appreciate about the game is that it doesn't pretend that all weapons are equally viable in modern combat; an automatic is going to be a much better choice than a semi auto which in turn is a big improvement on the bolt action.

The only place bolt actions are even supposed to be used is long range shooting, which is a niche role in the game. If you decide to take that niche role, then you really do have to accept that you're going to get the disadvantages that go with it.

The place they excel is where the semi-autos do not, but also the point of them isn't to be 1:1 competitive with semi-autos... just like in real life.
If you're a very skilled player, you will favor using the M16 with the long-range optic on obviously, but there are distinct benefits to the bolt-action rifles as they get armor piercing ammo (and THAT is what they explicitly excel at) which allows them to not only reach out and touch, but also increased penetration on what would otherwise be cover with non-AP ones.
As far as what they perform like with controls etc, the Mosin Nagant has a case of it needing to be a bit "less friendly" in use, as more classes than the marksman class get it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't get animations being more in line with rational use of it (i.e; if they're going to have that whole animation of stopping ADS to cycle the bolt, it might as well be much quicker).

Bolt-actions fit into a niche, but they could always give them additional customization options to make them have more appeal (like maybe giving them in-line mounted NV optic attachments when night & NVG gameplay comes along, but not give it to semi-autos, so you'd have day-optics only on the others or maybe have it be cheaper for the bolt-action ones). Plenty of ways to make them more appealing eventually.

@mainfold said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

The place they excel is where the semi-autos do not, but also the point of them isn't to be 1:1 competitive with semi-autos... just like in real life.
If you're a very skilled player, you will favor using the M16 with the long-range optic on obviously, but there are distinct benefits to the bolt-action rifles as they get armor piercing ammo (and THAT is what they explicitly excel at) which allows them to not only reach out and touch, but also increased penetration on what would otherwise be cover with non-AP ones.
As far as what they perform like with controls etc, the Mosin Nagant has a case of it needing to be a bit "less friendly" in use, as more classes than the marksman class get it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't get animations being more in line with rational use of it (i.e; if they're going to have that whole animation of stopping ADS to cycle the bolt, it might as well be much quicker).

Bolt-actions fit into a niche, but they could always give them additional customization options to make them have more appeal (like maybe giving them in-line mounted NV optic attachments when night & NVG gameplay comes along, but not give it to semi-autos, so you'd have day-optics only on the others or maybe have it be cheaper for the bolt-action ones). Plenty of ways to make them more appealing eventually.

I have to agree with you, my dude. Bolt actions aren't meant to be used for run and gunning or breach and clearing. If that's what you're using them for, then you're using it wrong. It's higher caliber, full sized rifle cartridge is meant to penetrate heavy armor and be highly accurate. Not to be able to out shoot a semi or full auto. On that note, the Mosin's straight bolt handle design doesn't allow for operating the bolt while keeping on the sights. Even with the angled bolt handle that you get with scope attachments, it would still be precarious to operate while keeping on target. I'm not ok with the devs completely redesigning a real rifle just for the sake of ease of gameplay for the handful of players who actually use it. I use it quite frequently and find it just fine. It's a fun gun to use if you want a challenge. You just need to learn what it's weaknesses and strengths are and adapt. If you can't do that, then use a different gun.

That said, I've found that even with it being a highly powerful, armor piercing rifle, it doesn't always get those one shot kill like it should. I've shot bots and the armor completely blocks it with no affect and bots get that insta-kill one shot pistol headshot on me immediately there after. The game as a whole still needs work but some fixes on some of these weapons would be nice as well as added content.

@marksmanmax said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

Not sure if that's realistic, but if it is, I think it might be acceptable to throw realism out the window here in favor of game balance.

The Mosin has a strait bolt that rotates 90 degrees to unlock, putting it vertically right in line with and behind the rear sight. It's also a probem with optics, since the handle will hit any conventionally mounted scope. Scopes designed for the Mosin mount forward of the action and have long eye releif.

There is a literal hack job solution: cut the bolt handle off and weld it back on at an angle. It's kludgy though since the action and stock aren't designed for an angled bolt handle.

@mainfold said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

... there are distinct benefits to the bolt-action rifles as they get armor piercing ammo

Yeah, and I've recently realized that this "AP" ammo is no joke. Shot one bot dead through like a solid fuckin concrete wall with a Mosin in one shot lmao.

@cool_lad said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

One thing I appreciate about the game is that it doesn't pretend that all weapons are equally viable in modern combat; an automatic is going to be a much better choice than a semi-auto which in turn is a big improvement on the bolt action.

Yeah, it's something Insurgency's done pretty well, although I'd also argue that Insurgency is about the ability to use whatever the hell you want and have it actually work (for instance, in Ins2014 I once used an AKS-74u with a PO scope and HP ammo and actually did pretty well lol).

Still, I feel like bolt-action rifles felt more viable in Ins2014 than they do in Sandstorm. They had faster reloads and bolt cycling speeds and you didn't have to buy any extra attachments that other guns don't have (i.e. Greased Bolts or Stripper Clips).

@mainfold said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

..as more classes than the marksman class get it

Nah, I believe only the Marksman can get the Mosin... in PvP modes, anyway. In Cooperative, even Rifleman can nab one (and possibly the Demo class?), but only the Marksman has the Greased Bolt option.

@zagorith14 said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

Bolt actions aren't meant to be used for run and gunning or breach and clearing. If that's what you're using them for, then you're using it wrong.

It's fun to roleplay Day of Infamy, though lmao. Man, those were the days where you could slaughter everyone with just a Kar98k.

Still, it's annoying to use a bolt-action rifle even at range, which is supposed to be their one and only strength.

@zagorith14 said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

That said, I've found that even with it being a highly powerful, armor piercing rifle, it doesn't always get those one shot kill like it should. I've shot bots and the armor completely blocks it with no affect and bots get that insta-kill one shot pistol headshot on me immediately there after. The game as a whole still needs work but some fixes on some of these weapons would be nice as well as added content.

This irks me a lot.

I've got a few clips of exactly this, and I honestly can't explain why this happens. Whenever I test them out in the Range, I don't see any inconsistencies. It's only in online matches.

@maa_bunny said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

The Mosin has a strait bolt that rotates 90 degrees to unlock, putting it vertically right in line with and behind the rear sight.

As someone else mentioned here, though, if you're gonna take your sights off-target, you should at least bolt the rifle faster. You aren't doing anything else.

@marksmanmax said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

Reloading is extremely slow. Loading even one bullet takes about 5 seconds, which is insanity. However, reloading when the gun is empty skips an animation that greatly lengthens the reload time. Personally, I think that animation just shouldn't exist at all.

This animation is perfectly logical. When the gun is empty, you eject the shell and reload. As simple as that. When the gun is not empty, you put your fingers in the chamber to avoid ejecting a non-fired shell. Each time you cycle the bolt, a shell is ejected, so it's perfectly normal and realistic to prevent that from happening.

It was not the case some time ago, and it was driving me mad seeing such poor animations. Like... You fire 4 times, you want to reload, eject the fifth cartridge and put 4 back, and voilà ! You magically have 5 shots again ! Wonderful round-generating rifle.

Still totally agree as for the rest of the critic.

last edited by Grumf

@grumf said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

When the gun is not empty, you put your fingers in the chamber so avoid ejecting a non-fired shell. Each time you cycle the bolt, a shell is ejected, so it's perfectly normal and realistic to prevent that from happening.

Oh, alright. Makes sense.

Does the animation have to be this slow, though? I mean, it really shouldn't take much time to move your hand to and from the bolt.

@marksmanmax Yeah. That's another debate, lol. I too think that using a bolt-action rifle is too expensive and too slow, especially compared to semi-auto marksman rifles... The SVD is a pure one-shot killing beast, can have a 15 rounds mag... There is simply no reason to use a bolt-action in this game, atm.

@grumf said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

@marksmanmax Yeah. That's another debate, lol. I too think that using a bolt-action rifle is too expensive and too slow, especially compared to semi-auto marksman rifles... The SVD is a pure one-shot killing beast, can have a 15 rounds mag... There is simply no reason to use a bolt-action in this game, atm.

SVD is incredibly god-tier, but I wouldn't call it OP myself. I think it's more just "everything else is trash" than "the SVD is too stronk".

@marksmanmax Yup. Definitely that. The SVD functions well imo. It's just that everything else (even the M14 EBR to a less dramatic extent) sucks.

@grumf M14 EBR wouldn't be garbage if tagging actually worked properly lmao. I'm gonna start a thread about that soon.

@marksmanmax said in Bolt-Action Rifles...:

As someone else mentioned here, though, if you're gonna take your sights off-target, you should at least bolt the rifle faster. You aren't doing anything else.

Yes. Definitely should be faster. In reality Mosins can be a real pain even to cycle, as much mythology that has built up around high-tolerance Soviet rifles, it really makes for a sloppy functioning machine, and most Mosins do not have smooth bolt cycles. But, no two are totally alike either, it all depends on the particular rifle. One of my friends has one where you need to smack the bolt with a mallet after every shot to get it to unlock. It's typically way harder to quickly cycle a Mosin than, say, a Kar98, or a Remington 700.

I kind of want to go back to the days when the ironsight Mosin was mildly overpowered. That was fun

@cyoce I mean, at this point I just enjoy any weapon in Sandstorm that actually one-shots people.

@marksmanmax Yeah. At the time, the Mosin was the only gun that reliably one-shotted people