Humble requests regarding the 3rd game, if you make one.

Dear Devs.

Your game sounds great, feels great, plays great, looks great.

But there is one thing that I just can't shake and makes me disappointed everytime.
What could possibly be the problem for me since I love largely everything here?

1 word: "Scale"

I'm a colossal fan of MEGA sized stuff. I LOVED Star Wars Empires at War and how absolutely mega the star ships got to be the stronger I got and as I got access to larger ships.
Seeing them on the battlefield was insane. They took up so much space on the map and it just felt astounding epic and mindblowing to see battles go down, having them get damaged and fall apart.

Even as I sent multiple of them to their deaths for fun I LOVED seeing the fights go down, whilst spamming entire navys full of mega star destroyers. It was just fun and cool to behold.

0_1554319363238_9c956c2e-bd63-46b6-9e03-f8bbc2c5b57a-image.png

As you can see here the varying ship sizes were magnificent and it really went to add so much extra to the visual spectacle plus appreciation for " Oh boy... now comes the big guy!!"

I dont feel your games add this element unless I zoom all the way in and that is tactically unwise, which goes without saying.

I'd love if it you would make everything bigger in size. LEt us have more ships on the maps, and make everything larger.

I know some players would argue that its smaller because thats more strategic and such, so on and so forth.
But I'm a guy that just enjoys the colossally insane visual spectacle of full blown space war alike what we see in the movies, artwork, your loading screens 🙂 and so much more

Your game here introduced some SERIOUSLY mega sized constructs but most of the time they are either static background stuff or special units we never see again.

So, dear devs. Please... consider... making stuff larger. Much larger. Because I would absolutely love to play this game and savour every battle whether loss or win because of the visual awe this stuff has.

I mean come on... ain't nobody here can say they didn't had their jaw drop when the Death Star in Empire at War was approching the planet you were fighting around whilst seeing MEGA ships fire lasers all over the place.

And then you get that big flashy button .... BOOM ! entire planet gets rekt.
Sure its strategically dumb but GOD DAMN DOES IT FEEL GOOD! haha

Youtube Video

Just look at it. let alone controlling it as part of the fleet, moving with your navys.
Ahhh good ol days.

So yeah, Devs. This thread became 2 things now !

Nr 1: make stuff WAY bigger. Pretty please. Like this here.

Youtube Video – [1:04:57..]

And nr 2: Give us control of the inquisition and lets nuke planets !!!!!!

But hey. If you will only consider 1, just pick Nr 1. Scale matters a lot to me because I enjoy these games for the visual sci fi spectacle above everything.

Thank you.

I dont think it will happen with BFGA format. To truelly make it feel big and magnificent they would have to go with a space strategy that is 3 demensional and make everythin XXL. And set it up to work with that. But theres alot of hurdles to deal with that. When watching your video. I dont notice to big of a difference when it comes to scaling but thats just ImO.

The key difference is unit scale. The ships are ginourmous even when zoomed out. In this game I feel that things are largely of the same size and when we zoom out for a tactical perspective things come so so tiny.

Personal visual gripe but yes. The best example of what I'd like is during the tutorial right when you command the Imperial Fist Phalanx.
That... is what I would like baseline in terms of unit scale.

Absolutely massive ships that take up space on your screen because visual awe 🙂

oh and btw. The deathstar vid I linked didn't use the biggest ships available. The picture at first showed the real difference 🙂

last edited by Vampfan666

@vampfan666 The problem is scale: it's vastly different between the two IPs.
In SW you have far more variance in scale than in most cases in 40K fleets (there are exceptions, especially if we include the highest-end rouge trader and in-fluff ships and void-capable constructs).
The reason why you see so little variance is just because the scale is quite uniform for most 40K vessels, while in SW the flagships tend to utterly dwarf their line ships, this is just not often the case in 40K.

This picture illustrates what I mean quite well: notice how the majority of the 40K ships are of quite considerable mass, while in SW, the SSDs just dwarf everything. Even the smallest 40K military vessels are in the size range of Star Destroyers.
0_1554395908113_08d1b219-678a-4a3e-bd45-68320e1c6351-image.png

To further add to the point, Imperial fighters and bombers (at around 100 metres in length a piece), are in the same size range as corvettes, frigates, and some light cruisers by SW scale. So it wouldn't be workable to be permanently zoomed in to the point that EaW treated as it's standard, 40K fleet scale just makes it impractical, but it's entirely possible in the current game if you want the cinematic feel so I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

@caliger_reborn

Do you have a bigger version of that picture? I can't see a damn thing on it, but it looks awesome.

@caliger_reborn

Actually Star Destroyers are supposed to be in the cruiser/ Battleship range of size. Just lukas decided that Star Destroyer is a cool name for a ship and that brings the big misconception that the SD is the same size as a Cobra destroyer.

Its not a destroyer Hull.

For the 'ship scale', it would be great to have some truly gigantic ships in battle from time to time, and I guess it's more limited by lore than game design.

Thing about 'battle scale' though, this is kind of reason why I'm bit careful about addressing BFG 1&2 as "RTS". Though I understand lot of people use the term just describing 'strategy game' these days.

While I have never played tabletop version of BFG (did played the mobile version of BFG though), as far as I understand it was about tactical battle, with managing individual ship maneuvers and weaponrys. Tindalos' video game seems focused on recreating original tabletop in real time, with focus on managing individual ships maneuvers (weapons firing arc) and skills in tactical battle rather than resource gathering/manufacturing or grand strategy (which is non-existence outside of campaign), So I'd say the game if more 'RTT' at best.

While I'm up for bigger battles and gigantic ships myself, these would fit better in more typical type of RTS (say, Homeworld would be perfect example), rather than in current setting or design of RTT. The game steel would enjoy slightly bigger battle scale, but adding more ships to control in current game would make commanding individual ships even more harder than before.
Hence more 'simpler' battle mechanic would be needed to fully embrace truly larger scale battles, where units have specific roles assigned, and not needing player's constant care. The fact that most 40k ships have it's weapons mounted sideways and constantly moving also complicate things as well.

https://youtu.be/clubcMuq2bo?t=243
This is a video I made when testing personal mod to increase scale of battle, (note it's not in English as I'm also using unofficial language translation I made) and you can see that I'm already struggling to control and oversee all those ships in real time.

Anyhow, all I'm saying is 'bigger scale' is more fitting in different game design, and it's up to Tindalos' (or any other developers' for that matter) design philosophy. That said, I would definitely love BFG RTS game.

last edited by HarbingerCom21

@canned_f3tus I know what it is 'meant to be' by star wars standards, I'm just pointing out that this battle cruiser/battleship vessel is about the same physical size as a Cobra Destroyer. They little more than well-armed escorts in 40K metrics.

Perhaps I need to better illustrate this visually...

Here's the Size of a Star Destroyer against some other well known vessels in Si-Fi:
0_1554472255784_a0653c69-eb3b-466a-9e44-344852e45aff-image.png

Pretty big right? By no means a small vessel, and it's a line vessel you say? Sounds good, so lets compare it and the largest ships in that comparison to to a Tyrant Class; one of it's operation equivalents in the IN:
0_1554472503895_f73c12d3-cd56-4164-9829-bb900274d044-image.png

As you can see, IN Line Ships are effective the equivalents in scale of smaller SSDs/Battle cruisers (like the Praetor Class), and I can assure you a Tyrant is more than capable of killing those vessels with it's guns, it's torps or simply ramming them apart on its prow.

And it just gets silly if we compare an ISD to a Retribution, going by the 'Battleship' role.
0_1554472946614_3a93bc45-827e-42ea-9fc7-7eb0919cc973-image.png

And here again you can see the scale mismatch vs SM ships:
0_1554473087861_a732066a-dcd5-4a35-b512-9542ddd54826-image.png

I assure you, it doesn't get any better if we start looking at other factions in 40K, if anything it gets worse. While I understand the different tactical role of the ISD, it's way out if it's depth in 40K.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

40k is HUGE, a thunderhawk is as big as the largest plane.

it lands in holds that are too small for us to even see.
A single one of those spires has the footprint of a city block.

You have to work to get ships and titanic vehicles into a star destroyer, you don't in a 40k destroyer.

A Blackstone fortress isn't massive next to your ships, but it's still big enough to destroy a planet as debris.

An imperial star destroyer just sort of makes a mess where it lands.

The ISD is probably the size of an Las Vegas block in footprint, the Retribution Class Battleship, footprint is Las Vegas. If you flew a ISD into the BS, it wouldn't notice.

40k Ships can ram planetoids like pluto, and the planetoid loses.

You could fit entire cities in a macrocannon.

If you took a 40k figure, an placed it in a retribution battleship at the same scale, it would be as big as the star destroyer is to us. You'd need the footprint of a ISD to represent a BS at 1/48th scale.

You see the launch bays on one of these? It's not like BSG, there isn't a central runway, each one of those contains it's own fucking airport.

We look at an AT-AT and we go, holy fuck that's huge, someone in 40k goes, that's a cute mini-titan.
You can fight on the surface of one of these in space, because it's so big it has it's own fucking atmosphre.

An ISD hulk, would literally be sucked into the gravity well of one of a 40k hulk.


With all that, i would like more scale, smaller ships would not go amiss.

40k scale is big. Longer ranges, larger vessels by general.

EaW is a great game, but it would really need a zoom in.

To put it into perspective, the KOTOR corvette that rammed and pushed an ISD into another in Rogue One is the size of the regular macrocannon fire used by Imperial ships.

The game also is not really up to scale. It is a representation of a tabletop game, and thus there are old things that clog it up like 2d and "stylized" ranges and sizes. The range is also practical, since 5-10km ships shooting at each other from hundreds of thousands of kilometers would not be that spectacular.
Big fleet engagements can begin at AU ranges. That is the range between the Sun and Earth, though I assume it does decrease accuracy. But when shooting at an ork fleet or nid swarm, you are bound to hit something.

But I do agree it could use some improvements, like escorts coming in squads like the infantry did in DoW games.

And 40k does not even really have a canon size, it is like the case of the SSD with 9km to 19km scales.

Cruisers have been stated by official sources to be anything between 3km to 9km, with battleships going from 2km to 6km to 8km to 16km.

It is all over the place, so the game uses the model scale for BFG board game.

This comes down to SW being a space opera, where the Big Bad needs a Big Bad Ship that just totally dwarves everything else. No offense to Squats.

40k is more like a warsploitation where vessels are not that required to play into the evil overlord's stronghold role by default. It does happens at times, but not as much overboard as with SW.
Usually 40k "boss ships" are not as much bigger than their line ships, with Glorianas being 20km+ so at best twice as long as a battleship.
Even though they ARE very powerful, enough to wipe out planets or fleets on their own, but their size is not so great compared to the rest of the fleet, akin in style to the Scimitar of the Star Trek movie. It could kill a planet but it was not gargantuan when compared to the average Romulan vessel.

last edited by Imperator

Its kind of tricky to compare the ships of 40k to other sci fi settings. I find 40k ship sizes to be largely inconsistent from the stuff that i read and i think alot of it has been retconned.

Some say the Retribution is 20- 30 km long but i think the standard now is between 8 to 10 km. Which is still huge.

But i will have to agree with you guys 40k ships are always gonna be 20x bigger.

@Vixie

The ISD is probably the size of an Las Vegas block in footprint, the Retribution Class Battleship, footprint is Las Vegas. If you flew a ISD into the BS, it wouldn't notice.

Physics would say no. But the laws of physics dont apply in 40k so fair enough.

40k Ships can ram planetoids like pluto, and the planetoid loses.

Same as mentioned above. Both pluto and vessel would evaporate but 40k dont care 😃

You could fit entire cities in a macrocannon.

Now that is grotesquely over exagerated and source material and pictures shows that macro shells cant be no much bigger than a Semi truck with a trailer. Because you can see crew loading the shell. It would also be a logistical nightmare. Where the hell will they store the munitions...

https://www.moddb.com/groups/warhammer-40k-fans-group/images/macro-cannon

last edited by CANNED_F3TUS

@canned_f3tus said in Humble requests regarding the 3rd game, if you make one.:

@Vixie

The ISD is probably the size of an Las Vegas block in footprint, the Retribution Class Battleship, footprint is Las Vegas. If you flew a ISD into the BS, it wouldn't notice.

Physics would say no. But the laws of physics dont apply in 40k so fair enough.

40k Ships can ram planetoids like pluto, and the planetoid loses.

Same as mentioned above. Both pluto and vessel would evaporate but 40k dont care 😃

You could fit entire cities in a macrocannon.

Now that is grotesquely over exagerated and source material and pictures shows that macro shells cant be no much bigger than a Semi truck with a trailer. Because you can see crew loading the shell. It would also be a logistical nightmare. Where the hell will they store the munitions...

https://www.moddb.com/groups/warhammer-40k-fans-group/images/macro-cannon

Touche on the macrocannon if that's cannon, but I was going off the scale in the previously provided pictures.
and I wouldn't say 40k don't care, I say 40k got metals we can't dream of!

@canned_f3tus Technically, GW's own policy of 'everything is cannon' actually holds up for the scales on display in 40k.
Two planets in 40k have such vastly different capabilities, that it makes sense for that to be massive size dispensaries between ships even within the same class.

So you will still see 20+KM long Retributions, as well as the 'standard' 8-10 KM, it's likely that those larger Retributions are just older or were built on special request of some High Admiral. The nature of the Imperium itself makes size and power estimates unreliable.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

@vixie yeah. Well even toughest alloys cant withstand anti matter though lol. But its part of the setting and i appreciate it.

@canned_f3tus why woudl there be anti-matter in a planet? 😛

@vixie said in Humble requests regarding the 3rd game, if you make one.:

@canned_f3tus why woudl there be anti-matter in a planet? 😛

In physics, the absence of anti-matter is already puzzling to us, as there's no mechanical reason for its rarity. There's no reason in 40K they couldn't just say there's an entire planet made of anti-matter, or there's a material that lends itself very well to the creation of synthesized anti-matter. When in doubt, rule of cool always takes precedence. 😛