There's one thing that can be quickly done to address a part of this issue without much discussion:
Destructible objectives should have a zone around them like cap zones and anyone inside it gets points when the objective gets destroyed. The zone should be generous in size and not just 10m^2 around since you know, the thing will explode and people need to be far away from it to not to die.
@pakislav said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:
There's one thing that can be quickly done to address a part of this issue without much discussion:
Destructible objectives should have a zone around them like cap zones and anyone inside it gets points when the objective gets destroyed. The zone should be generous in size and not just 10m^2 around since you know, the thing will explode and people need to be far away from it to not to die.
Why not make this more realistic, and realistically rewarding? Make the objectives much harder to reach and reward everyone that survives when the objective is destroyed.
Putting a canned reward perimeter around an objective does not in any way shape or form reward a realistic approach to achiving this kind of objective.
Indeed that would be a simpler alternative, especially since the commander can destroy many of them from the previous objective with a n airstrike.
@hoak - I think its pretty simple. The cache needs to go as it only begs to be taken quickly. The only way to take away the race from the cache portion of the problem is to give credit to all people alive once it is taken. Then the person always looking for that big score number will no longer be acting selfishly as it rewards everyone else alive. If anything they will probably if not sometimes methodically wait for people to die off instead of racing for it.
Not that I play coop regularly but I don't have the attention span to be waiting on my teammates who are lagging behind and playing slow. as Whitby said, If the game forced me to play smart and tactically in the form of having the gunplay actually be lethal and dangerous (by having the rifles and above kill in 1 shot) then that is a small portion to fixing the issue. The maps in my opinion are a bit too wide in most cases so it's not always easy to stay together. Perhaps it should be cordoned off and made more linear like on Buhriz.
@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:
@hoak - I think its pretty simple. The cache needs to go as it only begs to be taken quickly. The only way to take away the race from the cache portion of the problem is to give credit to all people alive once it is taken. Then the person always looking for that big score number will no longer be acting selfishly as it rewards everyone else alive. If anything they will probably if not sometimes methodically way for people to die off instead of racing for it.
Max80 that's what I've been saying from get go; any confusion is subterfuge from people caught up in minutia, like the post just above yours that's easily ameliorated.
@hoak Usually when a post is sent up the way yours was to the powers that be at NWI, change is on the horizon. I already have a huge weight off my chest regarding it.
Maybe a better option, is to eliminate the caches and replace them with "Intel Grabs".
A room, with laptops and papers, that has maybe 5 items that can be used.
Each one takes ~15 seconds to fully investigate, and getting all the intel from all the items nets bonuses to the whole team.
This would mean that we'd have a lot of reasons to move as a team, so that we could investigate the items faster, and there would need to be other players providing overwatch while the checking of items happens.
The focus here should be on making ways for the game mechanics to encourage moving together and working as a team.
@jballou _ intel grabs would be awesome! Hold the point while the laptop is hacked.
One of many ideas from my mod list.
I also plan on adding a "check body" mechanic so that players can investigate dead enemies and get intel on enemy disposition and placements.
Maybe even add in something to be able to grab an enemy radio set and listen in, but that'd be a lot more work for an unclear benefit.
But if the pace is moving too fast for tactics to work, then the game should add things to slow people down who are rushing ahead.
@jballou said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:
Maybe a better option, is to eliminate the caches and replace them with "Intel Grabs".
A room, with laptops and papers, that has maybe 5 items that can be used.
Each one takes ~15 seconds to fully investigate, and getting all the intel from all the items nets bonuses to the whole team.
This would mean that we'd have a lot of reasons to move as a team, so that we could investigate the items faster, and there would need to be other players providing overwatch while the checking of items happens.
The focus here should be on making ways for the game mechanics to encourage moving together and working as a team.
Yeah I'd vet that too! Great idea! Though I feel include rather then replace as part of the objective, keeping some where you might finish it with demo. As things are now it's six guys in a phone booth defending unsupported from the worst position.
To bring the discussion back around to the topic post; not just objective realism but incentivising a more realistic approach to how it's achieved was what I'm rooting for here, and simpler just works.
Sandstorm has some objectives that actually encourage startling realism in how you approach them, bounding and team cover from inside an objective area and outside, and the whole squad can pull through even on very high difficulty server.
Many like me (but not enough) don't care about the current arcade score system and just play accordingly, to make things work, but the speed-bunnies far too often throw the game.
The Outskirts map is one of the best coop maps to come out of NWI imho, perhaps in FPS realism coop design; it's aesthetically impressive, large enough in scale player can actually flank, but no so large there are endless flanking maneuvers, the AI placement is realistic and doesn't give the impression of a hoard of Zombies attacking, and on high difficulty the tempo is quite realistic.
But the coop scoring system remains a neck down nod to arcade games that mars gameplay, turning "coop" into 'race your team to score', and hurry up and puppy pile on tiny objectives and score -- which is sad...
If you want a more realistic and slower paced milsim experience play on a milsim community server.
People on public servers will play at their own pace and leasure, with the majority of us wanting to level as fast as possible which means completing as many games per hour successfully while eliminating as many hostiles and objectives as possible.
It's Insurgency, not Arma. Even in the mod and the standalone title Insurgency you had the disparity of the slow pokes vs the speedy gonzales hot shots like myself. The solution has always been the same, find a server with the people who are akin to playing how you want to play, don't try and whine and have a core aspect of the game fundamentally changed because you're a slow poke who wants to complete 1 map per every hour.
While I play at what most folks would call a 'fast pace'. I can empathize with those who prefer to play slower. In my opinion, I believe the fairest and most fun course of action to take would be to increase the bots and their flanking speed. That would control the speed of game play and particularly if JBallou's idea of 'intel gathering' were implemented as well. Personally, I don't care about score, achievements, cosmetics or bragging rights.
@Depleted said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:
If you want a more realistic and slower paced milsim experience play on a milsim community server.
That does not work, speed Queens show up and trash the game more often then not.
People on public servers will play at their own pace and leasure, with the majority of us wanting to level as fast as possible which means completing as many games per hour successfully while eliminating as many hostiles and objectives as possible.
"The majority of us" is very questionable at best, out right doubtful if you look at the facts honestly: the "majority" of would be fans; people that bought the game, bought the previous game, and/or tried the game -- are not playing the game.
As anyone with any level of intellectual honesty can see, the Steam statistics are abysmal, and not improving. The reasons frequently cited by would be fans of the game (again people that bought the game and aren't playing it, bought the previous game, and/or people that tried the game and did not like it) are consistent with the topic and premise of the thread.
It's Insurgency, not Arma.
No one here but you said, suggested or implied it was, or should be -- that assumption is all yours and not even remotely in line with the topic or direction of discussion or what anyone has said, suggested or implied in the thread.
A far stronger case can be made for what the majority of would be fans want and reason aren't playing is they do not want another Counter-Strike, do not want another Call of Doodie, summarily another action realism game that might as well be zombies vs magic robots with a realism paint job and don't care at all about or want RPG grind to dress a combat Barbie.
Even in the mod and the standalone title Insurgency you had the disparity of the slow pokes vs the speedy gonzales hot shots like myself. The solution has always been the same, find a server with the people who are akin to playing how you want to play, don't try and whine and have a core aspect of the game fundamentally changed because you're a slow poke who wants to complete 1 map per every hour.
The thread isn't about speed, or slow vs fast players; it's about speed and score whoring at the expense of depth of game play. More specifically it's about how the score system steers the direction and goals of tactical game-play, and in this case obviates it.
It's been clearly acknowledged here that there are gamers like you that don't care about realism other then the paint job, don't mind or even want an arcade speed-spam zombie hoard shooter and that's fine, you have what want, go play it, have fun -- these aren't the droids your looking for, move along.
There are others, me among them, looking for something a little deeper, above the neck, and more challenging --clearly the kind of game modes, and score system we're looking for wouldn't appeal to you, the thread and ideas here aren't for you, it's for the 'would be' fans of Insurgency Sandstorm...
@Depleted said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:
When i say the majority of us, i'm referring to the people who play the game. How dense can you be?
Obviously being outdone by you in that regard -- you've clearly, completely and empirically missed the point that the vast majority of the people that bought the game aren't even playing the game.
That's a decisive vote with people's time as far as your assumption that 'everything is fine, people that want something else should just go to another server'... Well we have -- only it's obviously not running Insurgency Sandstorm...
As well the troll off assumption that 'go play on another server' can't even work as there aren't enough people with any remaining interest, and then a few people like you show up, and that's the end of it...
You should at least make a little mental effort to read what you're responding to... Good luck, have fun these aren't the droids you're looking for, you obviously have what you want and thanks for the bump!
