Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.

before you call me some crazy idiot, just hear me out plz.

I've actually been opposed to the idea of bringing AP and HP back from Insurgency: Source to Sandstorm for ages now. AP and HP made Ins2014 extremely unbalanced, and thus it shouldn't be in Insurgency: Sandstorm. Right?

Here's the thing; Insurgency: Source was a horribly imbalanced game due to AP and HP ammo types. However, it was also extremely fun. Ins2014 was a semi-realistic game with some arcade elements here and there, but the gunplay was lethal and easy to learn.

Insurgency: Source is good in the same way Battlefield: Bad Company 2 is good; there are so many ways to play/cheese the game because everything's extremely overpowered. Wanna run an AKS-74u with HP and a PO scope? It'll work fine. What about a decked-out Makarov? You can sh*t on entire teams with that if you're decent.

Sandstorm, however, was specifically designed around Competitive play. I think that's the biggest hurdle to this game, as the "Source" material simply wasn't designed for Competitive at all. Attempting to "balance" Sandstorm to work competitively just makes the game not feel like a true sequel to Insurgency. It would almost make more sense to just have the Competitive damage model differ from the standard model.

Now, I still think it's possible for Sandstorm to have a solid damage model with high lethality without adding in AP and HP. However, I'm asking for these ammo types now because Sandstorm's damage model has been royally f*cked for over half a year now.

On September 6th, 2018, both Light and Heavy Armor were heavily nerfed. Prior to this update, Light Armor actually helped protect the player from pistol calibers (and possibly battle rifles?) while Heavy Armor helped additionally against battle rifles, shotguns, and 5.56 weapons. While the old damage model wasn't perfect, it wasn't bad.

Ever since September 6th, armor, in general, does an extremely poor job at protecting the player from anything. In fact, 75% of Sandstorm's weapons will kill a player in 2-3 torso shots in CQB, with or without armor. Only a quarter of Sandstorm's weapons can kill an unarmored player in one torso shot, while every single firearm in Insurgency: Source, without mods, could achieve the same.

So while most weapons basically have the same amount of shots to kill, that whole idea of "one shot, one kill" has been completely thrown out the window in Sandstorm.

Another issue is Sandstorm's actual weapon handling. Hipfire now has ludicrous amounts of recoil and is impossible to control for weapons with high horizontal recoil like the MP5s and MP7. Crouching reduces recoil by 40%, which is insane. Just slav squatting reduces the recoil of your weapon so significantly that it'll make it a laser beam. Going prone has an even greater effect (although this at least makes sense) and using Focus also seems to reduce recoil by roughly 20%. Also, if you're suppressed, you have much more sway and your recoil can increase by 50-100% from what I've tested. The first-shot recoil is also much higher, making full-auto fire the current meta.

In Insurgency: Source (feel free to correct me on this, because I'm not 100% about some of these stats), crouching seems to reduce recoil by 15-20% maximum (not sure about prone). Using Focus does not reduce recoil at all, as far as I'm aware. Being suppressed adds some weapon sway, but it's nothing that you can't counter. Recoil stays constant. The meta was AP + single tapping or burst-firing at most.

First of all, before anything else, Sandstorm's weapon handling should exactly mimic Insurgency: Source. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have no idea why the hell NWI did what they did to weapon handling in Sandstorm. Stick with the Ins2014 weapon handling because that was near-perfect.

As for the gunplay model, I'm starting to lose hope that NWI will ever change the damage model and shots to kill, which is why I'm asking for AP/HP to come back. The game is already in such a bad state with the damage model and the gunplay, and I feel like you should just say:

FUCK IT!

Break the game! Insurgency: Source was broken and yet it's an amazing FPS. Trying to balance out everything so "nothing's too strong" and all this other sh*t really just isn't Insurgency's style. Adding in AP and HP will change the meta in Competitive (unless, of course, you just keep AP and HP ammo mods out of Comp entirely), but it's not like the current Comp meta (spraying with an M4) is any better.

NWI can always test out AP and HP ammo types in a custom arcade mode first, or possibly even adding them on the CTE and getting community feedback that way. I just want firearms in Sandstorm to not feel like peashooters anymore. It's strange that after all of the quality-of-life changes and all the graphical improvements and new mechanics, the old Insurgency is still more fun to play.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Upvoted based on title, didn't even read post. Glad you came around at last. ❤

Or just have a mutator like the License to Kill mode from Goldeneye, where any hit is instantly lethal.

Since the update i think the only practical use for armor is to soak some explosive damage. Other than that there really isn't much difference in absorbing weapon damage with/out armor.

But this is not the old Insurgency

One shot kill with any weapon is just plain BS

Weapon difference causes people to choose carefully what weapon they use

I agree armor is useless & this why I never use it

I like the difference & challenges this game provides. Different weapons take different skill sets

Are there nuances in the gameplay, yes at times

Each to their own though

But I would prefer a game that is a challenge & not a game that is handed to people on a plate

Alright, time to reply to shit lmao.

@whitby said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

Upvoted based on title, didn't even read post. Glad you came around at last. ❤

Hey, I think it's a good post. You should read it lol.

I was telling a friend of mine that all NWI had to do for Sandstorm was improve the graphics and maybe add in some new mechanics and features, while keeping everything else exactly like Ins2014, and I would've bought it. 100%. I've got 1400+ hours on Insurgency: Source; you're damn right I'm buying the sequel!

@jballou said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

Or just have a mutator like the License to Kill mode from Goldeneye, where any hit is instantly lethal.

I mean, an Arcade mode could have something like this, or even just have it as an option for Custom servers. I'm pretty sure that if an Ins2014-style damage model was available for custom servers to use, every single custom server would be using it.

@imacookie said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

Since the update i think the only practical use for armor is to soak some explosive damage. Other than that there really isn't much difference in absorbing weapon damage with/out armor.

Heavy Armor does actually do a decent job with explosives. A Frag Grenade normally has a nine-meter lethality radius (so at ten meters, you'd survive without armor). Light Armor knocks one meter off of this radius (down to eight meters) and Heavy manages to lower the lethality radius to six meters, which is pretty good honestly.

@sawcoach said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

But this is not the old Insurgency.

Yeah, and that's why I want it changed lol.

One shot kill with any weapon is just plain BS

Well, Ins2014 wasn't always one-shot-one-kill, even with AP. It's not like an M9 with AP could one-shot Heavy Armor (could one-shot Light though lmao).

I agree armor is useless & this why I never use it
I like the difference & challenges this game provides. Different weapons take different skill sets

There's not much difference, though, and that what I hate about it. Most of Sandstorm's weapons just feel the same.

But I would prefer a game that is a challenge & not a game that is handed to people on a plate

A game where one shot is lethal 90% of the time is not a game handed to people on a plate, that's for sure. The added lethality adds in a bit of a learning curve, but because weapons are so lethal, even a new player can take down a pro without much trouble. You've only gotta land one or two shots, after all.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@sawcoach said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

Weapon difference causes people to choose carefully what weapon they use

The "differences" is the SVD, M14, PKM and others kill in 1 shot and they are picked disproportionately over everything else.

The differences should be the less manageable guns kill with any round up of the knee. The intermediate rifles kill with torso shots or upper torso at long range. Give sniper rifles foot-shot-kills for the sake of it.

Done. Lethality and reasonable trade-offs.

@whitby said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

The differences should be the less manageable guns kill with any round up of the knee. The intermediate rifles kill with torso shots or upper torso at long range. Give sniper rifles foot-shot-kills for the sake of it.

Done. Lethality and reasonable trade-offs.

I mean, shooting someone in Ins2014 with a shotgun slug or non-AP .308 rifle round would literally kill them anywhere, regardless of hit location, unless they had Heavy Armor and you hit the torso.

Shooting someone's wrist with an M45 was an instakill, as well, even without HP ammo. Sandstorm just isn't the same at all.

@slazenger said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

@sawcoach said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

Weapon difference causes people to choose carefully what weapon they use

The "differences" is the SVD, M14, PKM and others kill in 1 shot and they are picked disproportionately over everything else.

Probably why I see so many battle rifles nowadays. Just people trying to get their one-shot-kills in lmao.

last edited by MarksmanMax

I'm pretty sure the Ins2014 M14 was survivable in the toe if it was slinging AP rounds. The M16 you definitely needed torso hits though.

Made both guns great, one was a better all-rounder, the other excelled at long range.

@whitby If you loaded AP ammo into battle rifles they did lose their ability to one-shot someone in the leg.

One thing about the Ins2014 damage model, though, is that shooting someone in the foot does the same damage as shooting someone in the upper leg. The game had far better consistency because of this.

Agreed. Bring back AP ammo or make a mode that has a damage model like Insurgency. Im just about done with this sandstorm game. After going back to RS2-Nam i now realize its the damage that makes sandstorm awful. Just feels like another casual "run around in open space" game. What a disappointment.

@rifleman Often you can just run around and zigzag and you won't die. Sometimes tagging also fails to do anything, so someone gest hits and they don't slow down.

@rifleman @MarksmanMax Bumpity mother fuckin Bump!...Sorry 😂

@planetcanada said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

@rifleman @MarksmanMax Bumpity mother fuckin Bump!...Sorry 😂

Why bump a post by one hour lol

@marksmanmax Just showin my love... and I don’t know what the hell I'm doing my other reply to you on other thread touches on that lol. One love! Stay Frosty! #APFTW#RemoveDamageReflection#VIPLivesMatter

It's frustrating putting multiple rounds in a targets chest cavity and they continue breathing, I'm all for HP/AP ammo, more choices for us.

It's a game with guns, warfare is not meant to be balanced. This isnt league of legends.

@depleted said in Just Add AP/HP Ammo In Sandstorm. Fuck It.:

It's frustrating putting multiple rounds in a targets chest cavity and they continue breathing, I'm all for HP/AP ammo, more choices for us.

Well, not only more choices but also more viable tactics. You could one-tap with anything loaded with HP by just kneecapping everyone, and AP made wallbangs stronger.

It's a game with guns, warfare is not meant to be balanced. This isnt league of legends.

That's a really good way to put that lmao. Still, Sandstorm really shouldn't be much of a "balanced" game because that's not what was good about the original.

last edited by MarksmanMax

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