Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

If mathematically the odds are about equal, then in reality the outcome of the battle depends on the skills of the players and microcontrol. But you are trying to highlight this fact, as if it affects negatively on your faction. What nonsense?) This shows only the skill of the players and nothing more. What you do is demagoguery.

This whole paragraph makes no sense whatsoever, it does not pertain to anything I wrote.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

I see that you are compensating for the failure of your opinion with over-conceit. Considering how often you repeat this, you obviously have an inferiority complex. Please behave yourself.

No inferiority complex. Just a simple fact that idiocy does not realize its own folly. As you keep showing.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

If you mean a board game, then we are not playing a board game with turn-based battles, this is RTS. We have discussed the comparison of weapons Macro against Lance as well as the ships of the Empire and Chaos, but not aircraft. Do not change the topic.
Aviation is a completely different topic, it should be considered not in a separate faction, but in a comprehensive manner in all factions.

In other words you wish for the faction and its void warfare lore to be completely remade in this game, because why? You say so?

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Why not have strong points? As we found out, Chaos has damage over a long distance, has great speed. You again ignore the facts and make unsubstantiated statements.

No one found out such thing, anyone who tried playing a Chaos lance/carrier fleet will tell you that what you're stating here, is frankly BS.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Yes, you continue to ignore the facts again and again, for example, that Chaos has an advantage in range and speed.
Again, I repeat, the fact of the matter is that if the characteristics are equal in math, it all depends on the skill of the players. We found out that according to calculations Chaos has advantages, but you still continue to assert, even now, that Chaos is weak. How can he be weak, not inferior in the characteristics of the Empire, and even surpass him, and the circumstances in battle depends only on the skill of the players? This is absurd.

This is actually what you keep doing. The only calculations you bring up, are your dps charts. You fail to see how difficult it is for Chaos fleet to maintain its range, which I even proved to you mathematically. But you keep thick-headedly ignoring it, all the while accusing me of ignoring the facts. That is called hipocrisy.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

The ships of Chaos are weak

With exception of brawl oriented ones, yes.

Ok, let's count. As we see, Chaos is even the better than Empire

No it isn't, you are literally the only one who gets such conclusion.

Mathematics is good, but the result of the battle depends on the conditions.

If you still don't understand my point about maths, then I can only conclude that you are simply stupid. I will tell this the very last time.
Maths results are good when you have properly taken into account enough conditions that your mathematical model illustrates the practical situation on the battlefield with enough accuracy. 2 stationary ships firing away at each other with no movements taken into account is good for an initial estimates of power, but include movement and the result changes. You can not comprehend this simple fact, therefore I will not be addressing this point further down.

Yes, the conditions depend on the skills of the players, so we found out that the ships of Chaos are not weaker, but in something stronger than the Empire, and the outcome of the battle depends only on the skills?

No. Conditions are mandated by strategy native to the given faction. Skill level of both players is always assumed to be equal in such discussions and I honestly have no idea why you're even bringing it up.

Not! Although the characteristics of the fleet of Chaos are strong, and the outcome of the battle depends on the player’s skill, therefore Chaos is still weak.

Never stated something like this. If anything it's the opposite. Currently even a skilled player will be handicapped when playing as Chaos.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Are you trying to insult me? You know, it does not offend me. Because when you write this nonsense, you insult yourself. If so rude you behave in life, I think you have no friends.

If you retrace this argument, you will find out that I was the one who wanted to keep this civil, it was you who were rude.
Both to me and Bosie. You refuse to acknowledge others' arguments, you outright reject the maths that someone else is presenting and you present a clear attitude of "I know better better than you, why should I bother considering your points".
Worst of all, you accuse others of the very things you are guilty of.

last edited by Ahriman

This whole paragraph makes no sense whatsoever, it does not pertain to anything I wrote.

You still claim that Chaos is weaker than the Empire, despite objective facts refuting this.

Just a simple fact that idiocy does not realize its own folly.

You have described yourself very well now, I won’t even argue with you here)

In other words you wish for the faction and its void warfare lore to be completely remade in this game, because why? You say so?

We compare guns against guns. Or, besides Lance's buff for Chaos and increasing speed for Chaos, do you want the strongest aviation exclusively for Chaos?
I will tell you, if you do not know, in Chaos aviation is exactly the same in strength as in the Empire). "Does Chaos have the same aviation as the Empire? Chaos is weak again, Chaos has to have aviation stronger, otherwise it's not fair !!"

No one found out such thing, anyone who tried playing a Chaos lance/carrier fleet will tell you that what you're stating here, is frankly BS.

And so, the speed of Chaos is 200 against 160, the damage of Lance was also considered good, the range is large, the same damage at any range, but you still haven’t found such a thing). And you also asked why I write that you ignore the facts?) Yes, any idiot would understand after such an explanation, only you don’t understand)

The only calculations you bring up, are your dps charts.

True, at the same time you yourself calculated the speed of the Battleship at the minimum angle of attack (140 speed) and the turning time of 11 seconds and 3 seconds for the same speed as the Imperial. I note that these are your calculations, to which I have no claims, and I take this into account.

You fail to see how difficult it is for Chaos fleet to maintain its range, which I even proved to you mathematically.

And who said it should be easy? It all depends on your skill and the ability of the enemy. Do you think it is easy for the Empire to catch up with an experienced player for Chaos?
And yes, 3 seconds to restore the same speed with the Imperials is not so much.

Maths results are good when you have properly taken into account enough conditions that your mathematical model illustrates the practical situation on the battlefield with enough accuracy. 2 stationary ships firing away at each other with no movements taken into account is good

Are you seriously?? How long have we taken into account the movement, calculated, even you gave examples, and you write "with no movements taken into account"? You do not only show your stupidity, but still have problems with memory.
And so, we take into account the damage, range as well as the advantage in speed, which gives a technical opportunity to keep a distance. In order to put this into practice, you need skills, unexpectedly? But there is such an opportunity and this is taken into account when the power of the ships is compared.
There are still such parameters as health, shields, morale, the number of crew, but all these parameters in our example were the same, so no one had the advantage. There was no point in mentioning them, we stopped at the decisive and distinguishing on the example of 2 ships - range, damage, speed.

No. Conditions are mandated by strategy native to the given faction.

Wrong. The strategy is determined by the player, based on their characteristics as well as his preferences, skills and situation. The most skilled players are able to adapt and adapt to the conditions, using non-trivial strategies and timely respond to threats.
Although savvy is not about you.

Skill level of both players is always assumed to be equal in such discussions and I honestly have no idea why you're even bringing it up.

Are you an idiot?) How many times have I explained to you that, with equal characteristics, the conditions depend on the players 'skills, therefore this factor should be excluded, and the characteristics of the ships should be compared without taking into account the players' skill and circumstances.
And you write that I do not understand? Yes, how many times you wrote: "It is difficult to keep a distance and kite", to which I pointed out to you that this refers to the skills of the players, not to the characteristics of the ships.
I get the impression that you have a bipolar disorder. I advise you to consult a doctor.

Currently even a skilled player will be handicapped when playing as Chaos.

You just wrote that you need to take into account with equal skill players. And so, in many ways (Health, turn, crew), the battleship of Chaos is equal to the Battleship of the Empire. Chaos has advantages in speed, range and higher damage at medium and long distances. Players have equal skill. That is, the characteristics are equal and superior in speed and damage, skill is equal, we consider and it turns out - "skilled player will be handicapped when playing as Chaos". VAAAAAAAAT!
As we see, bipolar disorder will progress, we lose it.

If you retrace this argument, you will find out that I was the one who wanted to keep this civil, it was you who were rude.
Both to me and Bosie.

When giving arguments, I accept them and bring counter-arguments, such as your examples of deadlines at an angle, so normal communication happens. Bosya, unlike you, communicates normally, adequately and even if I or he disagrees with something, it can be normally discussed. But this does not negate the fact that you are Boorish cad, who does not know how to behave in a discussion and should not be in a decent society. This is not even talking about your ignoring the facts and the inability to accept the arguments.

you outright reject the maths that someone else is presenting

True? The only math you provided is the Desolator's speed at the angle of attack and the turn time from the angle of attack of 45 degrees to 0 degrees, a straight line. I did not miss anything? So I took your math into account and even cited it as an example not once.
It turns out that you now either intentionally lied, or do not remember what he says about the problems with your memory. Which of these 2 options is truthful?

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

@torgen said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

@yabatman Yes I agree, chaos should also have an chance of winning. The leaderboards of the last season tells an other story.

Legendary rank was dominated by the imbalance factions themselves, Tau Merchants, Orcs and Necrons, and the game still has balance problems.
One player of Chaos was still at Legendary Rank (player Jamodon), but there was not even one player for the Imperial Navy.

As I recognized it he played a Slaughter Macro Brawling fleet. Nobody claims that this build not gonna work. But long range kiting fleets (Chaos, but also Admec, Imp,...), which rely on lances are not competition capable. In relation to the tabletop and the first BFGA this is the way chaos should operate. I do not claim that chaos is the only faction needs help, based on the last season there are some. I think all faction which rely on long range lance fire power have a big problem at the moment. My suggestion to improve this is to increase damage and reload time at the same moment (keep the dps). As I sated before: Shoot (high damage) and reposition during reload (long reload time). This would be a viable strategy. I also would appreciate some more scouting skills for chaos.

@torgen Adeptus mechanicus will not be able to become long range kiting fleets , because the max speed of cruisers is 160, and the range is 9k (13.5k with “Lock On”). But he should not be a long kiting fleet, his feature in Nova. Oddly enough, but the best Nova fleet will come from the Empire, because ships from Nova are cheaper than those of Ad Mech). "Eye of Omnissiah" shots do not compensate for an overpayment of 30 points for each ship.

Due to the fact that there are unbalanced strong factions, the other factions look weak against the background of the dominators. As a rule, the faction has 1-2 ships, which are very advantageous on points, that is, having good characteristics but are very cheap. Players will equip the entire fleet with these ships and can easily defeat the rest of the factions, which can be well balanced among themselves. So need to either debuff the characteristics or increase their cost points. Conversely, unpopular and unprofitable ships need to reduce the cost of points.

last edited by yaBATMAN

See, there's a difference between us. I have a practical experience with the subject (Chaos lance/carrier fleets) that I can back up with practical application of maths.
You have a theoretical maths derived from basic ship stats, with clearly no practical grasp of the issue.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

You still claim that Chaos is weaker than the Empire, despite objective facts refuting this.

There are objective facts yes, but the "refuting this" part is your postulate only. Postulate that you desperately try to force through, despite numerous points against.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

We compare guns against guns. Or, besides Lance's buff for Chaos and increasing speed for Chaos, do you want the strongest aviation exclusively for Chaos?
I will tell you, if you do not know, in Chaos aviation is exactly the same in strength as in the Empire). "Does Chaos have the same aviation as the Empire? Chaos is weak again, Chaos has to have aviation stronger, otherwise it's not fair !!"

Here goes your thickheadedness again.
No, I never said Chaos should have a stronger aviation. They should have stronger carrier capabilities. Which they do. But it doesn't matter since the aviation overall sucks at this point, whether it be IN, Chaos, Tau Eldar or anyone else. And since it is so useless all across the board, it naturally takes away one of the Chaos' natural strong points.
Too complex to understand, eh?

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

And so, the speed of Chaos is 200 against 160, the damage of Lance was also considered good, the range is large, the same damage at any range, but you still haven’t found such a thing). And you also asked why I write that you ignore the facts?) Yes, any idiot would understand after such an explanation, only you don’t understand)

Because what you present here is what it looks like on paper. I'm not going to explain it yet again. Play long ranged Chaos fleet. You will see that 40 speed of difference is not enough to do jack' sh't, since it only works in perfectly radial-away speed case, without considering the map limits, the combustion gauge and front firing arc advantages the IN has.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

And who said it should be easy? It all depends on your skill and the ability of the enemy. Do you think it is easy for the Empire to catch up with an experienced player for Chaos?

No one said it should be easy. But it should be reasonably doable, and viable tactic. Which it simply isn't, and rankings only prove that.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Are you seriously?? How long have we taken into account the movement, calculated, even you gave examples, and you write "with no movements taken into account"? You do not only show your stupidity, but still have problems with memory.
And so, we take into account the damage, range as well as the advantage in speed, which gives a technical opportunity to keep a distance. In order to put this into practice, you need skills, unexpectedly? But there is such an opportunity and this is taken into account when the power of the ships is compared.
There are still such parameters as health, shields, morale, the number of crew, but all these parameters in our example were the same, so no one had the advantage. There was no point in mentioning them, we stopped at the decisive and distinguishing on the example of 2 ships - range, damage, speed.

I took into account movement. You only took into account raw dps, and later a straight line speed, when it was pointed out. You constantly ignore that Chaos is completely unable to keep distance while firing at the same time, and if they just run away without firing, then they lose anyway.
And they can't even do that, because again, map restrictions, combustion gauge, cornering, bombs etc.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Wrong. The strategy is determined by the player, based on their characteristics as well as his preferences, skills and situation. The most skilled players are able to adapt and adapt to the conditions, using non-trivial strategies and timely respond to threats.
Although savvy is not about you.

So would you like to try a brawling/ramming strategy using Eldar? Running and gunning with Orks? Or long ranged sniping fleet composed of Tyranids? How about boarding AdMech?
No? That is because factions naturally lean towards certain strategies more than others. Just like Tyranids are a natural boarding faction by both design and lore, so is Chaos a long ranged faction by default.
Sure they can adapt and use something more brawly for example.
But if the faction's default playstyle is simply not viable to the point where no sane player (regardless of skill) would want ot use it, there is where the problem starts.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

True? The only math you provided is the Desolator's speed at the angle of attack and the turn time from the angle of attack of 45 degrees to 0 degrees, a straight line. I did not miss anything? So I took your math into account and even cited it as an example not once.
It turns out that you now either intentionally lied, or do not remember what he says about the problems with your memory. Which of these 2 options is truthful?

I proved that the 40 speed advantage on paper does not translate to being able to run away in practice. And you outright deny it with the same argument from the beginning, "200 speed vs 160".

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

It turns out that you now either intentionally lied, or do not remember what he says about the problems with your memory. Which of these 2 options is truthful?

See point above. You can't see the truth when it's almost literally spelled out to you. Not surprising that you start seing lies.

See, there's a difference between us. I have a practical experience with the subject (Chaos lance/carrier fleets) that I can back up with practical application of maths.
You have a theoretical maths derived from basic ship stats, with clearly no practical grasp of the issue.

First, if you do not know, personal experience cannot serve as evidence. Besides, judging by what you write, I very much doubt your competence. Without facts, these are just your words that mean nothing.

You are the second, where did you get the idea that I have no personal experience of playing for Chaos? You have a memory problem, because I wrote it more than once. I repeat again, I have the experience of playing for Chaos, I had an Epic Rank before the wipe, which means I won more often than I lost. But unlike you, I do not just declare "I have personal experience, because my statements are already a proven fact," I rely primarily on calculations and comparisons.

"There are objective facts yes, but the "refuting this" part is your postulate only. Postulate that you desperately try to force through, despite numerous points against."

Why did you decide that these are “objective facts”?) If your unfounded opinion you call “objective facts” from this, they will not become objective facts. All the facts that you brought, this is the speed of the Battleship Chaos during the attack and the turn time, no more. Everything else is your unfounded opinion.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

We compare guns against guns. Or, besides Lance's buff for Chaos and increasing speed for Chaos, do you want the strongest aviation exclusively for Chaos?
I will tell you, if you do not know, in Chaos aviation is exactly the same in strength as in the Empire). "Does Chaos have the same aviation as the Empire? Chaos is weak again, Chaos has to have aviation stronger, otherwise it's not fair !!"

Here goes your thickheadedness again.
No, I never said Chaos should have a stronger aviation. They should have stronger carrier capabilities. Which they do. But it doesn't matter since the aviation overall sucks at this point, whether it be IN, Chaos, Tau Eldar or anyone else. And since it is so useless all across the board, it naturally takes away one of the Chaos' natural strong points.

Are you completely blind?? "We compare guns against guns"
which aviation? We compared the ships of damage, you yourself suggested to compare the Chaos and Empire Battleships, and now you are writing about aviation, which is a completely different topic. Are you completely madman? Or do you simply have no arguments about our cannons topic, and you are trying to shift the topic from the inconvenient to you, where you have made yourself a fool?

Because what you present here is what it looks like on paper.

So the facts on paper mean nothing? But your unfounded and "authoritative" statement is irrefutable proof)

Play long ranged Chaos fleet. You will see that 40 speed of difference is not enough to do jack' sh't,

It is not enough for you personally, it was enough for me. And how much do you think the necessary speed? Maybe 240 speeds? I can tell you that 240 speeds are in the Eldar Battleships. These ships do not have a range, the Drukhari have a 9k max range without the possibility of "Lock On". Their weapons are on the nose, because they cannot attack and run at a speed of 140 as the battleship of Chaos, moreover, that the Eldar shields would work, you need to go to the enemy.
But you continue as a capricious child, and as it turned out a stupid child and declare: “200 speeds are not enough for Chaos, you need 240 speeds”.
And now tell me again that you do not want an imba))

So would you like to try a brawling/ramming strategy using Eldar? Running and gunning with Orks? Or long ranged sniping fleet composed of Tyranids? How about boarding AdMech?

Imagine this is possible. As I said, everything is relative. For example, playing for Eldar, especially Drukhari and Asuryan, I rammed in situations where the damage done is more than the damage I take or my ship is not very healthy and will die anyway or need to kill the injured flagship.
For Orcs it is possible to run against the Empire or the Necrons, or even kite playing for an aviation fleet.
Tyranids from this patch can cause decent damage, I have an assembly for damage.

You know, now I understand your level of skill and why you are hard to play). Everything became clear.

I proved that the 40 speed advantage on paper does not translate to being able to run away in practice. And you outright deny it with the same argument from the beginning, "200 speed vs 160".

No, you have not proven anything, do not flatter yourself). You simply make statements saying “I have this experience” which can serve as proof of your skill and no more. But write "proof on paper is not proof" - and I ignore the facts?)😆

last edited by yaBATMAN

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

First, if you do not know, personal experience cannot serve as evidence. Besides, judging by what you write, I very much doubt your competence. Without facts, these are just your words that mean nothing.
You are the second, where did you get the idea that I have no personal experience of playing for Chaos? You have a memory problem, because I wrote it more than once. I repeat again, I have the experience of playing for Chaos, I had an Epic Rank before the wipe, which means I won more often than I lost. But unlike you, I do not just declare "I have personal experience, because my statements are already a proven fact," I rely primarily on calculations and comparisons.

Yes, it can not. But it makes me see what are the issues, and then I back it up with maths.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

You are the second, where did you get the idea that I have no personal experience of playing for Chaos? You have a memory problem, because I wrote it more than once. I repeat again, I have the experience of playing for Chaos, I had an Epic Rank before the wipe, which means I won more often than I lost.

I may very well be wrong here, but due the way you reacted to my points about Slaughter/Carnage/Repulsive I have a feeling you attained your rank using the much more viable brawling side of Chaos fleet.
Feel free to correct, just please, do not lie on the matter. My respect if you used predominantly a long ranged fleet afterall.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

No, you have not proven anything, do not flatter yourself). You simply make statements saying “I have this experience” which can serve as proof of your skill and no more. But write "proof on paper is not proof" - and I ignore the facts?)

On the contrary, I have, actually. 40 speed difference is completely negated by the need to keep the ship at an angle that allows the broadsides to fire. The only way for Chaos ship to keep distance, is for it o just run away in the straight line, which not only is counter-productive because it can not fire, but it even doesn't work in hte long run (map, cornering etc.). It is my experience on the matter that allowed me to notice this issue, and then I applied mathematical calculations to explain the problem. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge those simple facts.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Why did you decide that these are “objective facts”?) If your unfounded opinion you call “objective facts” from this, they will not become objective facts. All the facts that you brought, this is the speed of the Battleship Chaos during the attack and the turn time, no more. Everything else is your unfounded opinion.

Which facts make it so Chaos has no chance of effectively keeping the distance. This opinion is very much founded, and other players on this forum apparently happen to agree with me.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Are you completely blind?? "We compare guns against guns"
which aviation? We compared the ships of damage, you yourself suggested to compare the Chaos and Empire Battleships, and now you are writing about aviation, which is a completely different topic. Are you completely madman? Or do you simply have no arguments about our cannons topic, and you are trying to shift the topic from the inconvenient to you, where you have made yourself a fool?

Sigh...
Aviation is one of the strengths of Chaos faction. But since they are very weak all across the board it takes away one of Chaos supposed strengths. Which is not made up for in any other way, and was only there as an argument to point out how f.cked overall Chaos as a faction is at this point. Since you keep claiming that Chaos is just fine.
It did not pertain to the example scenario of battleship duel, whose sole purpose was to show how the slight advantage in speed is negated by the angle required to attack, and simply doesn't work.
Someone is apparently blind here indeed. But it's not me.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

So the facts on paper mean nothing? But your unfounded and "authoritative" statement is irrefutable proof)

They do not mean nothing. But they need to considered carefully, in conjuction with othert facts instead of just taken at face value.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

It is not enough for you personally, it was enough for me. And how much do you think the necessary speed? Maybe 240 speeds? I can tell you that 240 speeds are in the Eldar Battleships. These ships do not have a range, the Drukhari have a 9k max range without the possibility of "Lock On". Their weapons are on the nose, because they cannot attack and run at a speed of 140 as the battleship of Chaos, moreover, that the Eldar shields would work, you need to go to the enemy.
But you continue as a capricious child, and as it turned out a stupid child and declare: “200 speeds are not enough for Chaos, you need 240 speeds”.
And now tell me again that you do not want an imba))

Never have I claimed that Chaos should have 240 speed or something like that. The problem is that Chaos simply can not deal enough damage lance before they are caught, and they will. Which brings us to the initial point of this whole talk.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Imagine this is possible. As I said, everything is relative. For example, playing for Eldar, especially Drukhari and Asuryan, I rammed in situations where the damage done is more than the damage I take or my ship is not very healthy and will die anyway or need to kill the injured flagship.

And would you make an Eldar fleet that relies on ramming by default? You confuse situational actions with go-to strategy.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

For Orcs it is possible to run against the Empire or the Necrons, or even kite playing for an aviation fleet.

I'm sure it would turn out great against fleets not focused solely on battleships. "It is possible" is not the same as "one of the basic strategies of the faction".

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Tyranids from this patch can cause decent damage, I have an assembly for damage.

With this one I can agree

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

You know, now I understand your level of skill and why you are hard to play). Everything became clear.

Yes yes, I forgot whom I was talking to. Please pardon me your majesty for trying to insult your undoubtedly unrivaled knowledge, experience and insight of this game, and correcting your absolutely irrefutable "facts" that Chaos can stay in its comfortable range and outshot opposition with lances with even moderate efficiency.

We are unworthy of treading the same forum soil as the ultimate expert of dps charts and linear speeds sir yaBATMAN.
Chaos just so happens to have absolutely no skilled players, only Tau has.

then I back it up with maths.

Lies. You speak unfoundedly, all your mathematics is speed at an angle of attack and speed of rotation, and only

I may very well be wrong here, but due the way you reacted to my points about Slaughter/Carnage/Repulsive I have a feeling you attained your rank using the much more viable brawling side of Chaos fleet.

Do you even remember what started the comparison that you yourself proposed? We compared Retribution and Desolator. These are both battleships of damage. Now you want battleship of damage to compare with the aircraft carrier?). You need to compare similar ships in composition and role.

And for a moment, you argued that Desolator is not viable against Retribution, but now you declare that Chaos does have very viable ships of damage, you yourself confirmed this, remarkably).
Then tell me, is it your bad memory, double standards or just your stupidity?

On the contrary, I have, actually. 40 speed difference is completely negated by the need to keep the ship at an angle that allows the broadsides to fire. The only way for Chaos ship to keep distance, is for it o just run away in the straight line, which not only is counter-productive because it can not fire, but it even doesn't work in hte long run (map, cornering etc.).

Again, back from your unfounded statement to the facts. At an angle to attack, it composes 140 speeds, 11 seconds to turn to a straight line and leave at 200 speeds (remember, these are your calculations that I take into account), after 3 seconds of turning, you have a speed of 160, the same as the Imperials and then the speed increases while all this time the imperial does not cause damage. These are facts that there are advantages and the opportunity to realize them. And you are trying to disprove these mathematical facts that it is difficult for you to apply it. This only proves your lack of skills, nothing more.

It is my experience on the matter that allowed me to notice this issue, and then I applied mathematical calculations to explain the problem. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge those simple facts.

Again your "unshakable experience." It's funny to read, I laugh)))
Let me remind you that you just wrote that I used "much more viable brawling side" for Chaos. That is, in my experience, this tactic is viable, I can kite with 200 speeds and deal damage, but in your "great and powerful experience" this tactic is not viable))
We certainly can rely on your experience, these are "objective facts" LOL

Sigh...
Aviation is one of the strengths of Chaos faction.

Why do you think so? This is the same strength as the Imperial Navy, no more, no less. I remind you that the Empire has exactly the same strength in aviation as Chaos, the conditions of aviation are equal.

So the facts on paper mean nothing? But your unfounded and "authoritative" statement is irrefutable proof)

They do not mean nothing. But they need to considered carefully, in conjuction with othert facts instead of just taken at face value.

If the facts in mathematics mean nothing to you, then you are a fool and your statements are worthless, as you have proved many times.

Never have I claimed that Chaos should have 240 speed or something like that. The problem is that Chaos simply can not deal enough damage lance before they are caught, and they will

So you want more damage? I gave you math (which you do not understand because of my stupidity), Lants have a DPS more by 4.6k+ range.
But your skill does not allow to realize the advantage, although it allows me to do it, because I use "the much more viable brawling side of Chaos fleet"))

Yes yes, I forgot whom I was talking to. Please pardon me your majesty for trying to insult your undoubtedly unrivaled knowledge, experience and insight of this game, and correcting your absolutely irrefutable "facts"

Your sarcasm is not appropriate. Because I gave the arguments, calculations, comparisons as facts. But all the time you emphasized your personal experience as "irrefutable proof", and supposedly I have no experience, it means that I am not aware. But as we see as a result, I cite arguments, facts, calculations in the first place, without even focusing on your experience, and you continue to expose your experience as a fact, therefore you have no arguments. By this you have shown yourself to be a fool)

Boys even if your discussion is perhaps interesting (I didnt read all those wall of texts which seems full of pointless arguments) can you move to MP or create your own thread instead of plague the announcement thread?

last edited by Beernchips

@beernchips
Apologies Beern. I'll cease this thing since our friend wannabe batman is too much detached from the realities of the situation he tries to discuss.

Just a few last pointers and I'm off.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

Why do you think so? This is the same strength as the Imperial Navy, no more, no less. I remind you that the Empire has exactly the same strength in aviation as Chaos, the conditions of aviation are equal.

Because in lore during the Gothic war Chaos literally swarmed the Imperial Navy with ordnance, to the point they had massive problems with it and had to rapidly convert existing ships to accomodate more launch bays.

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

So you want more damage? I gave you math (which you do not understand because of my stupidity), Lants have a DPS more by 4.6k+ range.

This only proves how little you understand the topic.
Reload, have you heard of it? It increases macro dps by 66%, throw it in to your calculations. For that matter, lock-on also increases dps of macros, since the accuracy gets increased as well.

I don't wish to litter this thread anymore, so I'll leave it up to you to correct your own maths. You'll see that when stances are included, lances are beaten quite badly at all but the highest ranges, and those are very difficult to maintain, as I've already shown you with the speed/turning calculations, which you so stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Ok yeah, I'm not working through all those walls of text. My god.

But on the basic point of kiting fleets, I've played somewhere close to 20 games now and I'm roughly 6-14 ish with an AM kiting fleet. It basically doesn't work for the reasons Ahriman states when discussing the Desolator vs Retribution "kiting" situation.

I haven't tried playing Chaos yet, but I can say trying to kite basically anything with Gothics is a pretty similar experience of being forced to full retreat and not being able to keep the speed up whilst maintaining a firing angle even WITH the Omnissaih combustion restoration.

Maybe when I get more levels I can find some combo of skills that will help fix this but yeah, basically you need more than +40 speed to actually have a decent chance to kite anything.

@ahriman There would be no discussion if you stopped writing your nonsense.

Because in lore during the Gothic war Chaos literally swarmed the Imperial Navy with ordnance, to the point they had massive problems with it and had to rapidly convert existing ships to accomodate more launch bays.

Doesn't it bother you that in fights 2 vs 2 Necrons together with Chaos fight against Tyranids together with the Empire?
We are not discussing Lore here, but the balance in a multiplayer game and the balance in it is the most important.

So answer, as it happened, I have a much more viable, but you do not have a much more viable tactic, with your vast experience?) You just ignored your own statement. Answer this question and you can leave after that.

last edited by yaBATMAN

@admiralatlas Everything is relative and tactics must be chosen based on their capabilities of the enemy. For example, you will not be able to kite enemy fleets to Ad Mech or Tau, although the situation often forces you. In this case, it is best to avoid ramming through the spreading of the fleet. One ship takes the enemy away, the rest are deployed and cause damage, the main thing is to have a full afterburner scale.

Further, whether you can kite depends on the faction of the enemy. Playing for Chaos you will not physically be able to run away from the Eldar and need another tactic. Sometimes kite does not need but conversely converges with the enemy, for example, for Executors ramming the Tau cruisers.
Still having an advantage in range, it is advantageous to separate ships and attack not their pursuers, but the pursuers of another ship, making crossfire. So it is important to compare your capabilities compared with the enemy. And also do not forget that the enemy will try to bring to naught your advantages.

last edited by yaBATMAN

@yabatman

That is a silly argument. Situations like match-ups you gave are a typical quirk associated with a multiplayer.
But when a game is fundamentally rooted in a certain setting (unlike Starcraft for example, where setting is adjusted to the game), then the playable factions should very much follow its characteristics presented in a lore.

Of course, it doesn't mean that something should be outright broken because it was overpowered in the lore.
But the case with ordnance currently, is the exact opposite. The ordnance is overall weak right now, there is literally no balance reason to keep the ordnance as weak as it is, so if anything, it should be made more viable.

Balance is as important as ever, but only when it makes sense in conjuction with the lore. You can't play a 40k game and just not take lore into account for convenience sake.

last edited by Ahriman

You didn’t answer my question and you talk demagogy). I asked you a specific question, answer it.
Once again, you argued that the Ships of Chaos Desolator are weaker for the Imperial ship Retribution, then that its advantages in characteristics do not mean anything, because you cannot realize them. Then, as it turns out, I use much more viable ships like the Exicutor and DESOLATOR.
How did it happen that you cried like these ships were weak (with your experience), but did these ships suddenly become competitive and viable for me?) The same Desolator. How did it happen, double standards? Now answer!

last edited by yaBATMAN

@yabatman

Take Chaos fleet, use Desolator and Executor and reach the top 10 in the next tournament using mostly them.

Then we will talk about them being actually competetitve.
You rejected my experiences with faction as non viable arguments. Said that they were not "facts".

But you yourself claim you can use them competetively.

Isn't that what you call double standards?
Again, you're a hypocrite who thinks himself more knowledgable than everyone else and refuse to acknowledge anyone else's arguments, while insulting them and accusing of the very same things that you commit. As is traditional, one does not even realize their own folly.

I have already wasted enough time trying to go through that "holier than thou" attitude of yours.

last edited by Ahriman

@yabatman said in Massive Fleet Update & Season 2!:

CANNED_F3TUS, Ok, let's not argue without facts, but calculate mathematically. Take equal conditions, 66 armor (the most common), 9k and 13.5k range, and without stances, buffs, abilities, etc., so that everything was fair.

the problem is that stances will be active and with stances macros gain significant buffs. On paper lances look phenominal i agree. But in practice macros will always win over lances in almost every situation.

Chaos being the worst faction in BFGA speaks for itself.

Macro damage is blocked by 67% of armor, which means that only 33% is taken into account and also has an accuracy of 60% and 40% (9k, 13.5k). Lance damage ignores 25 armor, which means 67-25 = 42 armor, which means that 58% of the damage passes, and the accuracy is 100% always.

9.000 range, 66 armor:
Imperial Macro - 21 (damage) * 4 (number of attacks) / 12 (reload time) * 60% (accuracy) * 33% (blocking armor) = 1,386 dps.
Imperial Plasma Macro - 18 * 4/12 * 60% * 33% = 1.188 DPS.
Imperial Lance (Chaos is the same) - 15 * 2/12 * 100% * 58% = 1.45 dps.

And what do we see?)😁 Lance at 9k range slightly superior to Macro and significantly superior to Plasma Macro.

Unfortunatly statistics dont support what we see in game. And that is macros and more specificly Imperial Navy rakes chaos everytime.

13,000 range, 66 armor:
Imperial Macro - 21 (damage) * 4 (number of attacks) / 12 (reload time) * 40% (accuracy) * 33% (blocking armor) = 0.924 dps.
Imperial Plasma Macro - 18 * 4/12 * 40% * 33% = 0.792 dps.
Imperial Lance (Chaos is the same) - 15 * 2/12 * 100% * 58% = 1.45 dps.

Conclusion, Lance on the 9k range totally surpass any Macro. With the facts you can not argue.

I wish it was so. You dont account for all the various factors.

last edited by CANNED_F3TUS

@Ahriman @yaBATMAN

This debate should go into a different thread or take it to PM. I did not read the last half of the debate, only the IN and chaos bit that started it. I'll summarize what the reality of last season was for the chaos and IN matchup:
-IN > Chaos due to MWJ and rams (IN could easily catch Chaos due to the commissar ability and MWJ to lock down ships). Lets be clear, IN shooting was a non factor in the matchup as IN guns were terrible at the time. As a note to the current season patch, IN still out shoots chaos as IN can keep at a relatively close range using the commissar ability.
-Macros were all around better then lances. Lances were good at causing crits but the reality of game play was that the chaser generally caught the player being chased before those crits became a huge impact to which macros did better dmg at the close range while lances could hardly get past shields.
-shooting was almost irrelevant for most factions which is why it was an alpha dmg/ramming/boarding meta.
-The only successful fleet for chaos was the slaughter fleet due to it's speed and the amount of dps was as close as you could get to competing with other factions alpha dmg tactics but even then, you did not win by destroying the enemy, you played caps.

personal opinion, I think that either lances need more dmg or macros need more dmg but not both. Lances doing more dmg allow all lance fleets to not just tickle the enemy while an increase to macro dmg would allow hybrid lance and macro fleets to co-exist.

@ahriman You again did not answer my question. Why should I fill the rank for Chaos again, if I did it before?)
That's right, your experience means nothing.
To sum up, according to the characteristics, the Chaos ships are not inferior to the Imperial Navy (but you reject these facts on paper) and even surpass them somewhere, bring your personal experience as an argument and that it is difficult for you to use the advantages in real life. At the same time, yourself confirmed that I use "viable tactics" and it means that I can use the advantages of Chaos in my experience.
This proves that the problem is not in the fleet of Chaos, but the problem is in you. You talked nonsense all this time.

And further
alt text

This is а overall win rates of each faction that was published January 31.
This is the latest statistics published by the developers. Although there were many patches, but Chaos and the Imperial Navy did not endure many changes. The key characteristics remained the same.

What do we see ?? Imperial Navy- 44%, Chaos - 46%. As I said, these 2 factions are about the same level of strength.

This is another fact that confirms my words and which confirms that you are stupid, your experience and your words are worth nothing. This can end the dialogue. Good luck.

@yaBATMAN

Once again, please take this else where.

Also, that stat that you grabbed is very out of date it is irrelevant. AND, you are also wrong in the fact that since this was published, major changes WERE made that did have a large impact on game play with these two factions. Boarding was changed to apply stacks, ord became capped on the amount that you could have out at a single time. two huge impacts on chaos gameplay.

last edited by Ezycompany101