Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion

"The nids mention this dilemma in the newest Baal book "
did i completely misunderstand this?
i hope so

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@kadaeux That sounds about like what I’ve heard elsewhere. So Tonne is the mass measurement and Ton is yield? I was never sure about that, thanks for the clarification. For “retardo” end as You put it I once heard some guy go on about exaton torpedoes. Want the nova cannon supposed to be a Petatonish Fleet Killer? At least that’s what I heard. There also the issue of the other fleets not really getting good showing in these novels (eldar nids etc) so who knows what their like beyond better/worse than the imperials. Anyways, do you know how fast the torpedoes go? They have to go really fast if they don’t get run down by the ships that fired them, but slow enough that it doesn’t trigger the shields. The nids mention this dilemma in the newest Baal book (too slow means getting outrun, too fast means fun in the warp time)

The Nova Cannon definitely has a higher yield than the average weapon (I mean, hell it has between a 10 and 20 thousand kilometre blast radius for the 'standard' model.) unfortunately it's also the least consistently depicted weapon type. There have been doom beam versions, versions that fire black hole shells, the normal shells, one that fire solid shot etc.

As for torpedo speed I am pretty sure the only thing we have is extrapolated gameplay for that. But if we assume even a passing nod to physics then realistically its "Ship velocity + thrust"

@ashardalon Its more of a internal thought process thing, not actual speech. Its considering how to adapt as to not get shunted into the warp, lose the ship its tailing, or use to much fuel.

@Kadaeux Is there a standard type of nova canon? We have the plasma explosion type in game I believe, but I don't know if that is standard or not.

problem is that no matter how fast you go you never accidentally slip into the warp so still dont really get it
where nids experimenting with attaching a zoantrope to a torpedoe so it could open a warp gate directly into a enemy ship?
sounds cool but a massive waste of energy

torps just go speed of ships + acceleration of the torp itself
not very different from shooting a bow from horseback

BFG kindof misrepresents this massively because ships dont have inertia
there is no constant increase in speed when boosting or a need to initiate reverse trusters for a long time to stop
once at combat speed the ships would rarely use their main trusters unless they plan to ram
so torps just go ship speed + trust same for interceptors and bombers
nids might have trouble with this a bit sinse they do tend to be able to get short but very strong speed boost before they bite kindof like a squid but not in reverse so they could technically catch up to their own torps

nid movement in reverse https://youtu.be/9OIjaHIrM0U?t=32

last edited by Ashardalon

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@Kadaeux Is there a standard type of nova canon? We have the plasma explosion type in game I believe, but I don't know if that is standard or not.

The 'standard' I would consider to be the basic model described in the Big Blue Book and the Rogue Trader Battlefleet Koronous book.

Basically, the standard model is a fixed spinal weapon that requires the ships own propulsion to counter the recoil from the Nova Cannon accelerating a 50m diameter shell to .99c, the shell has a 10-20 thousand km blast radius and it's yield is described as "greater than that of a dozen plasma bombs"

Using BFG gameplay mechanics, if someone had absolutely no luck and the void shields had been brought down, a Nova Cannon shell could one-hit-kill a Cruiser. (8 Hits to anything under the hole in the template, roll for armour, fail all armour rolls = dead ship.)

@ashardalon Basically the way void shields work is they shunt whatever hits them into the warp. They only activate when they object is going very fast, which is why ramming and torpedoes don't get blocked by shields. The nids were trying to attach a probe to a BA ship to track them stealthily, which is how they found Baal I believe. Here is the quote for clarification.

"Chromatic cells on the surface flickered to match the colour of the Red Scar void. Counter-augur creatures encysted in the pod’s skin digested themselves, their electromagnetic screams sending out a cloud of obfuscating radiation on all frequencies. Silently, stealthily, the pod moved towards the Splendid Pinion, tracking the metal ship as it pulled away from the debris cloud and made its way to safe translation distance.

A separate, distended brain-creature housed in a cyst deep in the pod’s bony armour calculated the precise speed needed to penetrate the ship’s void shields. Too fast, and the pod would trigger the displacement response in the energy field, and be sent into the warp where it would be annihilated. Too slow, and the pod would be outpaced by its prey. More precious propellant gases were expended. The pod slowed. Its path became more certain, a parabola that brought it up and under the vessel towards the crags of the ship’s keel towers."

that makes torps fast enough to trigger voids while chasing
if they fired it head on i could see their concern
but either blood angels have the slowest marine ships in the galaxy or its bad writing
its not the speed of the torp that would trigger voids but the relative speed of a torp compared to the ship they are chasing

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

that makes torps fast enough to trigger voids while chasing
if they fired it head on i could see their concern
but either blood angels have the slowest marine ships in the galaxy or its bad writing
its not the speed of the torp that would trigger voids but the relative speed of a torp compared to the ship they are chasing

Neither really.

Voids are designed to stop weapons batteries and lances primarily. These are weapons that are indisputably relativistic velocity weapons. If the Tyranid ship is pursuing at say, .6c and the Blood Angels vessel is accelerating from .6c, then such a cyst launched from the Tyranid ship could easily be too slow to trigger voids, but fast enough to catch. (Assuming relatively close proximity for such an attempt to even be made.)

Of course, we're also missing surrounding context. I'm assuming that the Blood Angel vessel is not under immediate threat and that the cyst is one of the tyranids 'trap' organisms.

@kadaeux Yes, it was a stealthed probe, not a torpedo.

still, that it needs to worry about that means that torps are not much slower then macro shells and potentially faster
so how fast are macro shells?
good place to start your calculations

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

still, that it needs to worry about that means that torps are not much slower then macro shells and potentially faster
so how fast are macro shells?
good place to start your calculations

They're slower, by quite a bit. The void shields threshold is actually quite low. In the BFG novels (Execution Hour I think) the pilots of the Lord Solar Macharius (The Dictator Class Cruiser the novels are based around) panic when the Macharius begins raising her voids unexpectedly after launching, they had to burn hard to avoid the 'shear' from its activation because the threshold for triggering them is low.

As for Macro-shells.

Assuming "near instant" = .1 second.
Distance of 20'000km.
Then we have a projectile velocity of 200'000km/s (About .66c)

That's about the highest "reasonable" figure you can get with that quote. (If you assume 'tens of thousands' = 30'000+ then it's FTL)

Though if you make it .2 seconds, and the distance 50'000 kilometres, you get 250'000 kilometres per second. (.8339c)

ftl ammo breaks so much physics so the second number seems unreasonable
especially with how the cannons look
loved the look of the nova cannon in BFG because it had the design of the super artillery used during WW2
using a multi stage propulsion to get the necessary propulsion without blowing up the barrel
that gun could go insanely fast, but the rest should stay more then a bit below light speed

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

ftl ammo breaks so much physics so the second number seems unreasonable
especially with how the cannons look
loved the look of the nova cannon in BFG because it had the design of the super artillery used during WW2
using a multi stage propulsion to get the necessary propulsion without blowing up the barrel
that gun could go insanely fast, but the rest should stay more then a bit below light speed

It's why I didn't include any FTL figures. The second number is just a greater range. It's .83c, not 8339x c
Mind you, you also have to consider the fact that most macrobatteries are not in fact solid/cannon shells. The Sword Class Frigate for example, her weapons batteries are actually supposed to be laser batteries, the Overlord uses laser batteries, the Tyrant class Cruiser and all chaos ships are supposed to use plasma-based weapon batteries.

Weapon Batteries are in fact a very very wide category. In fact the idea they're chemically propelled doesn't fit any observed case.

The description of Weapon Batteries from BFG.

"Each battery consists of rank upon rank of weapons: Plasma projectors, laser cannons, missile launchers, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars."

Note; This is BEFORE the Tau even existed. (BFG: 1999-2003, Tau: 2001)

The word "Macrocannons" in 40k basically means "capital ship scale gun"

"Direct fire attacks include weapons such as lasers, fusion beams and plasma launchers which when fired hit almost immediately, even across tens of thousands of kilometres."

Special Note:
Lances are of course basically ultra-sized laser batteries.

EDIT!

loved the look of the nova cannon in BFG because it had the design of the super artillery used during WW2
using a multi stage propulsion to get the necessary propulsion without blowing up the barrel
that gun could go insanely fast, but the rest should stay more then a bit below light speed

The Nova Cannon doesn't use multi-stage propulsion. It uses graviometric impellers and requires the full ships thrust to counter the recoil generated by it's firing. (And it's projectile velocity is .99c as well as firing a bigger shell.)

last edited by Kadaeux

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon
compare with the nova cannon in the game
sure might not follow lore completely but its a great way of having a weapon like that being anywhere near realistic
its my favorite little detail on the ships in the game

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon
compare with the nova cannon in the game
sure might not follow lore completely but its a great way of having a weapon like that being anywhere near realistic
its my favorite little detail on the ships in the game

The Nova Cannon is one area I feel Tindalos really screwed the pooch,

A : They nerfed it to oblivion.
B : They made it so Orks could spam it to no end.
C : They put it on a bizarro turret arrangement instead of the spinal gun it is. (Then gave the Tau a spinal gun that they never had...)
D : They nerfed it to oblivion.

As for realism, there's nothing realistic about the Nova Cannon 😛 It uses gravity impellers to fire a projectile to .99c that requires thousands of g's to counteract the effect of recoil on the hull where, at a preset distance, it will detonate with a ten to twenty thousand kilometre blast radius, anything within five hundred kilometres is in for a bad time, and the blast retains enough power to kill escorts even at that maximum range threshold.

As for those side-pieces, they're capacitors 😛

last edited by Kadaeux

still like the look
doesnt look like the artwork, its usually just a long barrel in those
and even if its a more high tech nazi cannon it still follows its design
sure the stats of it are stupid, but the look is awesome
multi stage launch would also make the recoil less, because actually firing that thing in one go would fold a ship like a can
no material can justify the ships spine not breaking

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

still like the look
doesnt look like the artwork, its usually just a long barrel in those
and even if its a more high tech nazi cannon it still follows its design
sure the stats of it are stupid, but the look is awesome
multi stage launch would also make the recoil less, because actually firing that thing in one go would fold a ship like a can
no material can justify the ships spine not breaking

No material we know can justify relativistic spaceflight or over ten thousand gees of acceleration without pulping the crew either, yet here we are. 😛 You have to remember, that the Nova Cannon is one of the most advanced pieces of kit in the Imperial arsenal without delving into the Adeptus Mechanicus' restricted toybox (which we do get to do in 2 so win win :p)

And note, it's specifically restricted to Cruisers and larger, because the ship being destroyed by it firing IS what happens to anything smaller (including Light Cruisers.)

i assumed grav tech made it possible not to pulp the crew
still, a ship going full trust to not fly backwards when it fires a gun
that is a cruiser sized ship being propelled backwards by firing a gun...
imagine how far back a LC would fly if it was possible to put it on there, you could fire it backwards and use your ship as a reverse torpedo
its almost like expecting it to survive a head on collision with an equally sized ship
staged propulsion makes it possible to overcome some of the limits of cannons and those limits still apply to a upscaled version using better materials
the nova cannon is ridiculous, but using this method it could fall just inside of the probable side of ridiculous
the nova cannon design in the game is a great idea that also looks amazing using inspiration of rl designs
tindalos outdid GW on this one