Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@kadaeux said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

Happens all the time.

thats why spire had such a easy time delivering info on the chaos invasion that was incoming, inquisitors always just ask nicely

Spire was having his loyalty tested for the role the Inquisitor had. It had nothing to do with delivering the information. Inquisitors frequently ask nicely. It's when they don't get what they want, or suspect something, they turn nasty.

using xeno tech is heresy and abandoning lazguns to use them is grounds for execution
if they didnt have any weapons that excuse might work but they abandoned imperial and sanctioned tech for xeno tech
its in the lectitio divinatus

A: It's grounds for execution, so long as a Commissar decides it is. The Inquisition frequently doesn't give a damn.
B: It's not in the Lectitio Divinatus, that was a heresy era object. The Imperial Cult is built on it, not defined by it.

except that it was fully conquered and in the process of going full deamon world
deamons where walking around casually without needing summons

It was not going full daemon world. A daemon world is a planet in the warp that is UTTERLY infested by daemons.
Daemons were not 'walking around casually' but were bound to the Wirewolves which would only be animated if the Glyfs detected something out of place. The Glyfs being artefacts of chaos magic, not daemons.

storm of iron where the word bearers made a Gehemehnet was less corrupted

A Gehemehnet was never constructed in Storm of Iron. You're thinking of the Iron Warriors trilogy. And you might have had a point, except that the Gehemenet we observe constructed was a modified version used explicitly to crack into a Necron Tomb, not sacrifice a planet.

a mind whipe is a minimum according to imperial protocol

It's a protocol that has been ignored in literally every single novel and ceased being mentioned some time in the 2nd Edition (Unless the 8th has brought the idea back.)

and i can thus say that terminator armor has lots of multilazers because there is also a writer that is consistent in that
where is the codex entry for multilazer terminators?

As shite as his writing is, there is literally no reason that Terminators could not conceptually field Multilasers as an armament.

no, one writer that writes stories that are completely inconsistent with all others might indicate that that writer is wrong instead of all the others
just because you like 40k light: WW2 in spaaaaaaace doesnt make that the lore

Yes. It does mean that, when that author is repeatedly hired to produce book after book and the others are not. And yes, the fact that Black Library publishes it does in fact make it the lore.

if you have one writer whose lore is massively different from all others its more likely that all writers are right instead of the one

When you have one author who is repeatedly hired and others who are not, it is not even remotely plausible that the other one-shot authors are right. That is as absurd as saying that a business must be awesome because they hired fifty temps where another just hired one guy to do the whole job. If the business hired 50 temps it was because they couldn't do the job.

sure all writers make mistakes but most dont deliberatly ignore whole parts of imperial history or have imperial serving chaos spawn
or improbabilities like someone who was taken by the black ships meeting someone he knows again
what is the chanse of that

Pretty high. The warp can be pretty fucky that way. Also, Abnett doesn't deliberately ignore whole parts of Imperial History. And the Imperium certainly has, at many periods, put people in on the ground amongst chaos populations to gather intelligence.

they writ more consistent to their own lore but not 40k lore
again terminators with multilazers, he is very consistent, still not true

No. They write to 40k lore, or they wouldn't be published. This isn't even a point of discussion, this is absolute fact. Their work is 40k lore, whether you like it or not, they hold LITERALLY equal canon status with the Codexes and other material.

And again, there is nothing conceptually wrong or difficult to believe about Terminators using multilasers, given that they can use Assault Cannons, Reaper Autocannons and other heavy weaponry one handed.

using incorrect lore to justify incorrect lore

There is literally no such thing as incorrect lore. It doesn't fit YOUR vision of the lore. It does fit GWs vision. Or it wouldn't be published, again this isn't even a debatable point. This is literally GW's position on the subject.

for example desert raiders, the search for the fortress of arrogance, many books of terminators inside space hulks, several cain books where enter a cave or sewer and many many many more

Space Hulks ; The massive many kilometres thick objects made of starship hulls with uncontrolled energy discharges, energy fielding, power discharges, it's own vox distortions.... Sewer = Underground. Many communications systems don't work underground.

imperial tech is reliably and consistently unreliable and its not just one author and his personal lore that has them being unreliable
its just one author that has them as reliable

Utterly and entirely wrong. 40k lore has always been consistent on the Imperials choice of equipment SPECIFICALLY for how reliable it is. They don't expect it to run for a couple of years before needing to be replaced. They expect everything down to the humble lasgun to last for decades upon decades without fault or need for replacement. I've been part of the hobby since 2nd Edition was released and I can tell you now for a matter of absolute fact.

The idea that Imperial tech is "reliable for being unreliable" is an idiotic meme perpetrated by equally idiotic people.

that makes them being reliable not consistent, just some persons fanfic about WW2 in spaaaaace
that person is just very consistent in being wrong

Yes. Your fanfic is consistent in being wrong.

Abnetts work is about as much of a Fanfic as the Codexes are. Because his work holds equal canon status with them.

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@kadaeux I mean most 40k writers have their issues, and Annette is no exception. That being said he is one of the better ones, and his bias’s are Simple and Obvious (like ABD’s chaos obsession) Counter is not a good example, as while he has good ideas he does not do his research (the amount of things he got wrong about the Necrons in the world engine can be described as merely everything). But he’s definitely above explicitly bad writers like C.S goto or those who often make terrible things like Phil Kellyand his hatecrime against lore that is Warzone:Damnos

Oh they have their faults for sure. Counter is bad with Necrons. Abnett, much as I love his Guard work, can't write Marines to save his life.... (And, I think we all know, Marines in a Ghosts book are going to be there to show a Ghost do something badass.)

imperial tech is durable, not reliable
but hell nothing can convince you
you can literally open any book (except gaunts ghosts) and find some tech malfunctioning
every single time
yes it will still work as badly 1000 years later as it did when it was built but it never worked well or reliably

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

imperial tech is durable, not reliable
but hell nothing can convince you
you can literally open any book (except gaunts ghosts) and find some tech malfunctioning
every single time
yes it will still work as badly 1000 years later as it did when it was built but it never worked well or reliably

And yet, in all the hundred or so books I have, not counting codexes. That is untrue. It is durable and reliable. But hey, if you want to assume the universe works the way a bunch of ill-informed hacks who were never invited to write for them again tell you, you're free to do so. And I don't even mean that sarcastically. You're literally free to do so.

Games Workshops canon policy after all consists of

"It's all canon. Mistruths, propaganda, stories told around a campfire, administratum documents, inquisition records with the negative result excised" and so on and so forth. Outside of the gameplay rules, games workshops official policy on the subject, the only time they've ever actually said anything on the subject, is that there is no such thing as retcons, all official material has equal validity.

Now whether you take it as
A: GW is too lazy to proofread and maintain an internal consistency and came up with this copout to stop canon discussions..
B: GW has always valued the 'you tell your own story, we just give you the tools'
or
C : GW no longer has the original creative heads thus no longer gives more than a passing whoop-dee-doo about canonicity beyond what can sell more Marines 2.0.

is up to you.

And to be fair, there has been a couple actual explicit retcons over the last few years. Mostly due to backlash. (The Grey Knights Bloodtide, the Necrons suddenly forgetting Inertialess Drives instead hacking the webway are the two that come to mind as being explicitly retconned.)

last edited by Kadaeux

My personal favorite series was the word bearers trilogy. That one took all sides seriously and made no errors as far as I can tell. As a Necron fan, books like that are hard to find. To make the protagonists win, we either get nerfed horribly (hellforged, that Ahriman audiobook, dead men walking, every deathwatch book, Hammer and Anvil, the world engine), have key aspects of our lore ignored (hellforged again, TWE again), have some incredible plot contrivances against us (Flat our not shooting the wall until the last part of a siege with our seige weapons in Fall Of Damnos, Grenades blowing up planets in Hammer and Anvil), protagonists being buffed considerably (Goto, Nightbringer, Invincible dreadnaughts in FoD) ot everything combined (Warzone Damnos, May kelly burn for it). The point here being most authors only pay attention to the lore of the factions they like, and as such are writing for a faction they like and tend to smooth things over in lore for them sometimes, like in Gaunt’s ghosts. Now, this isn’t nessassarily a bad thing, as it can be done well by those who acknowledge their bias (Abnett, ABD), but many who write for 40k don’t (Ward, Kelly, whoever wrote brotherhood of the snake). It’s alsi hard to insure bias is differentiated from a simple lack of knowledge, as their is a lot of material and as such sometimes authors don’t fully know those they are writing about (Counter with the world engine). And of course those without a bias but also don’t care about lore (C.S Multilazor). It’s something to consider when thinking about books that might miss a fact or two lorewise.

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

My personal favorite series was the word bearers trilogy. That one took all sides seriously and made no errors as far as I can tell. As a Necron fan, books like that are hard to find. To make the protagonists win, we either get nerfed horribly (hellforged, that Ahriman audiobook, dead men walking, every deathwatch book, Hammer and Anvil, the world engine), have key aspects of our lore ignored (hellforged again, TWE again), have some incredible plot contrivances against us (Flat our not shooting the wall until the last part of a siege with our seige weapons in Fall Of Damnos, Grenades blowing up planets in Hammer and Anvil), protagonists being buffed considerably (Goto, Nightbringer, Invincible dreadnaughts in FoD) ot everything combined (Warzone Damnos, May kelly burn for it). The point here being most authors only pay attention to the lore of the factions they like, and as such are writing for a faction they like and tend to smooth things over in lore for them sometimes, like in Gaunt’s ghosts. Now, this isn’t nessassarily a bad thing, as it can be done well by those who acknowledge their bias (Abnett, ABD), but many who write for 40k don’t (Ward, Kelly, whoever wrote brotherhood of the snake). It’s alsi hard to insure bias is differentiated from a simple lack of knowledge, as their is a lot of material and as such sometimes authors don’t fully know those they are writing about (Counter with the world engine). And of course those without a bias but also don’t care about lore (C.S Multilazor). It’s something to consider when thinking about books that might miss a fact or two lorewise.

The Word Bearers trilogy was, quite honestly, some of the best 40k writing i'd ever come across. And as you said it covered EVERYONE well.

Fall of Damnos was... I want to say underwhelming, but I feel that'd be understating it. It had some great parts (like the duel with the minor Lord at the Artillery Battery) but I honestly felt like that was a book that actually did a disservice to absolutely everyone in it.

Cato Sicarius came off as, frankly, an idiot with a superiority complex, and the survival instinct of an emo in a razorblade factory. The Necron as a whole conveyed a nice sense of menace... until some plucky survivors with improvised emps are suddenly able to do what the Adeptus Mechanicus failed to do for an exceptionally long time, or Cato or Tigurius did something. And the less said about the Guard representation the better. They existed to have some gruesome deaths without sacrificing a heroic ultramarine to do it.

Hammer and Anvil, also came off as an oddity. I feel the author really missed the point with that one somewhere. I think they might have done better if they'd just done a retelling of the events where the Necrons were first knowingly encountered by the Imperium. (A Battle Report introducing them, when Necrons were so hilariously OP that they stomped the entire Sisters of Battle force without losing a single soldier. Though the pilot of a destroyer had to get up and walk.... remember when Destroyers were piloted skimmers 😛 )

I haven't read Hellforged, World Engine or Dead Men Walking so can't comment on that.

I can sort of understand the underlying confusion their paid authors have had with the Necrons though. They went from a virtually unknown Terminator-style machine race to Tomb Kings in space overnight. I've always reconciliated the major differences with "1st ed Crons codex was written from the perspective of other races and mythology, new ones were written from the Necrons own perspective" but that really didn't help Authors at the time.

Much as we revile Ward for the Dolmen Gate nonsense, sometimes I can't help but think he flat out didn't know about the Necrons inertialess drive tech.

pretty sure the protagonist doesnt win in dead man walking
krieg decides that isnt not worth the effort and submits to the necrons demands and leave
only reason anyone got off the planet was that the necrons just wanted to be left alone
they basically sent a message saying leave or die, and after a bit of being stubborn the imperium does the smart thing and leaves
also not really a nerf to them since they are never really active in the book
a few warrior patrols to guard the pyramid and flayed ones being flayed ones but no real invasion force was awakened
making krieg admit defeat is not really something you can call a nerf 😛

tho its been some time since i read that

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon If it did any justice to the Necrons, non of them would be left to leave. They would have all died. I don't care how good kreig korps are, they are not Necron Dynastic warriors level of good, they are still but mortal humans.

but they are new lore necrons
sadly no machines of pure death
necrons asked the humans to leave and gave them a deadline
pretty sure krieg didnt win a single battle in that book and spent entire squads to get a melta close enough to kill a single basic warrior... that then got back up
they had some hopeful delusions that the necrons needed powerplants but they where proven wrong and just as foolish as the ganger that was trying to bribe the metal gods with scrap metal
the necrons in that book where so powerful that they didnt see the humans as worth the effort of getting out of bed
necrons behavior tends to depend on the lord, some kill to the last, some collect for experimentation some demand an honorable duel and some ask you to leave because its early and they just want 5more millenia
that planet had one of the latter

@ashardalon Characterization wise I didn't mind that book, and I think it did justice to the durability of the Necrontyr, but it suffered from what I refer to as "no tank syndrome" as one of the necron nerfing variants. It forgot about most of the Necron units, albeit they weren't really being threatened so its much more acceptable than say damnos where not a tank was seen (besides monoliths). I suppose I was being unfair lumping so many books of varying quality together. The worst of the bunch are definitely hammer and anvil, TWE, and Warzone Damnos (not fall of damnos, this is Phil kelly's abomination), with WZ Damnos being the main reason I feel a need to object to bad necron characterization. It leads to this shitshow, where...well, have either of you seen The Emperor Text to speech series? That seen where calgar uses a hive block sized pylon as a melee weapon? That's not even an exaggeration it happens in the book. Other "fun bits" include Cato one shotting a c'tan, secret instakill spots on necron nobles, killteams casually strolling unmolested through an unguarded tomb complex, "no tank syndrome", said pylons not being used as to kill the fleet, mysterious vanishing necron fleet syndrome, and the premise of erasing the single defeat the smurfs received in that edition under ward. FFS when you are worse about the smurfs than WARD HIMSELF issues are occurring

@Kadaeux DMW isn't to bad, and TWE is just badly researched (Triarch stalkers Don't have shields, nobles interacting with flayed ones positively, Astartes being more experienced than the Praetorians, who spent all 60 million years awake and fighting threats like the eldar) and were overall decent. I liked Fall of damnos because its one of the few books besides DMW and the word bearers trilogy that (somewhat) took us seriously. And then we have hellforged. It on the brightside understands Necron Naval Supremacy, but as expected of counter nerfs the hell out of the ground (he gets better by TWE, though not by much). Feats include normal humans surviving gauss, gauss acting like acid, lords being vulnerable to bolters, necrons getting HACKED, and warriors having circut boards. A very dumb book overall, and really should have been better considering it was Oldcrons era.

@nemesor-xanxas
you will not hear me criticize the rest of your list
but dead man walking was literally the necrons hitting the snooze button on the imperium
so even the no tank syndrome makes sense in that regard
they where just going "shoo let me sleep, stop digging so close to my pillow its loud!"
you know damn well that as soon as you start putting on tanks, getting back in bed becomes a lot harder 😛

@ashardalon fair enough, I was just hoping to see some tank on tank action. That would have been pretty cool. Dead men walking is probably the only book in the list I would still regard as a decent portrayal despite No tank syndrome.

@nemesor-xanxas
problem with necron tanks is that they are giant fucking pyramids of doom
DOOOOOOOOM!!!!!
they appear really rarely and for good reason
one of the books i recall them in was 5 havoc squads shooting at the crystal top and achieving nothing
think they are the biggest non superheavy in the setting (or are they classified as superheavy now?)
so you would need an entire tank regiment to get 98% wiped out in the first volley or you would still call it an inaccurate representation
or you would have to give the guard a baneblade and they arnt as common as soulstorm would have you believe

i know they have new tanks now so the pyramids of DOOOOM!!!!! arnt the only ones anymore
even have transports wich seems a bit silly to me
but might still take some years before they start appearing in novels in decent numbers
writers will want to place a pyramid of doom mostly when upgrading the engagement to tanks and thats a big escalation
necrons being mostly infantry and some hover things is going to stay the popular vision for a long time im afraid

@ashardalon Fair enough, but canpteks aren't new and their should have tons of them. According to the codex something like 99% of tomb world incursions get mulched by murder roombas before seeing a single actual necron. And I count Spyders as tanks, seeing as they are the size of a dreadnought. There were also tomb stalkers/sentinels, which should have been one of the first things a force encounters lore wise, but to be fair they cant really use something that's supposed to be able to kill warhounds in a book focused around infantry.

Yeah monoliths are pretty absurd. IIRC in the word bearers trilogy 6 of them kill 3 titans, one of which was a Reaver. Everyone else considers them a superheavy, but to Necrons its just a battle tank that plays a similar role to the Russ. To clarify vehicle roles (counting canopteks)
Main Battle Tank: Monolith
Infantry Tank: Annihilation Barge
Tank Destroyer: Doomsday Arc
Anti Vehicle/Repair/Builder Unit: Canoptek Scarabs
Anti Infantry Tank: Canoptek Wraith
Support Tank: Canoptek Spyder
Tank Hunter: Canoptek Acanthrite
Armored Personnel Carrier: Ghost Ark
Cruiser Tank: Triarch Stalker
Command Tank: Catacomb Command Barge
Bike: Tomb Blade
Command tank on steroids: Tesseract Ark
Dropship: Night Scythe
Interceptor/AA Fighter: Doom Scythe
Bomber: Night Shroud
Atillery: Sentry Pylon
Inteceptor Tanks: Cannoptek Tomb Stalker/Sentinel
Superheavy: Doomsday Monolith
Superheavy Anti Air: Obelisk
Superheavy Command Unit: Warbarque
Superheavy Support Tank: Abbatoir
Superheavy Artillery: Gauss Pylon
Knight: Setekh
Titan: Crypt Stalker
Thing That Really Shouldn't Be On The Front Lines: Tesseract Vault
Orbital Assault Unit: Megalith
Unstopable Fleet Mulching Abomination: Aeonic Orb

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@ashardalon Fair enough, but canpteks aren't new and their should have tons of them. According to the codex something like 99% of tomb world incursions get mulched by murder roombas before seeing a single actual necron. And I count Spyders as tanks, seeing as they are the size of a dreadnought. There were also tomb stalkers/sentinels, which should have been one of the first things a force encounters lore wise, but to be fair they cant really use something that's supposed to be able to kill warhounds in a book focused around infantry.

Yeah monoliths are pretty absurd. IIRC in the word bearers trilogy 6 of them kill 3 titans, one of which was a Reaver. Everyone else considers them a superheavy, but to Necrons its just a battle tank that plays a similar role to the Russ. To clarify vehicle roles (counting canopteks)

Of course, with six Monoliths we're talking about a Monolith Phalanx. Which as we know can have some super-funky effects like weapons being shot through it being weakened etc 😛

@kadaeux True. Necrons are quite scary in that their numbers tend to be multiplicative in effectiveness, not additive. I think damnos is the best example of this, where previously they were having some trouble with the marines with a single monolith and then a phalanx shows up and one shots an ordinatus through its void shields. Just another reason you really need to stop a tomb world early or you'll be in for a bad time.

Ah, yes, the Æonic Orb.
The Great Glowing Testicle of Doom and one of the biggest cheese-makers in 40K.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

@caliger_reborn Its such a fun thing to fight. Don't kill it, and it kills you (and everyone nearby, and the continent your on, and likely the planet). Do kill it and it turns back into a star, also killing you (and the fleet, and the planet, and likely the system due to the gravitic fluctuations). What a wonderful set of options!

@nemesor-xanxas said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@kadaeux True. Necrons are quite scary in that their numbers tend to be multiplicative in effectiveness, not additive. I think damnos is the best example of this, where previously they were having some trouble with the marines with a single monolith and then a phalanx shows up and one shots an ordinatus through its void shields. Just another reason you really need to stop a tomb world early or you'll be in for a bad time.

Though Damnos was also super-weird in that. The Gauss Pylon batteries were powerful enough to scare off a fleet of Imperial Ships and prevent a Strike Cruiser approaching, but incapable of dealing with the Imperial defences until the final hour? Every time I read Fall of Damnos all I can think is that the Necrons should have been able to easily and absolutely stomp the snot out of the garrison.

pretty sure most necron lords have gotten senile in their long sleep
they just forget all the cool stuff they can do

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