Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

i assumed grav tech made it possible not to pulp the crew
still, a ship going full trust to not fly backwards when it fires a gun
that is a cruiser sized ship being propelled backwards by firing a gun...
imagine how far back a LC would fly if it was possible to put it on there, you could fire it backwards and use your ship as a reverse torpedo

Not so much because it would make the ship go backwards. But because if they don't it breaks the ship.

staged propulsion makes it possible to overcome some of the limits of cannons and those limits still apply to a upscaled version using better materials

So does constant propulsion 🙂 I feel I should have mentioned it earlier, the WHOLE BARREL is the graviometric impellers, it's not a single burst at the back like with a chemical reaction. In truth, it's basically a railgun using gravity instead of electromagnetism.

the nova cannon is ridiculous, but using this method it could fall just inside of the probable side of ridiculous

the nova cannon design in the game is a great idea that also looks amazing using inspiration of rl designs
tindalos outdid GW on this one

Not really. Tindalos failed because of the silly turret assembly. And it doesn't outdo the GW one because the GW one was as detailed as it was physically possible to make it using injection moulds.

alt text

As you can see here, I suspect they might be ditching the turret-assembly model for fixed as the AdMech vessels can be seen with it.

alt text

Now note, how small and fragile the Nova Cannon is on the models themselves,

alt text

alt text

The Nova Cannon was as fragile as the sensor masts, and gods alone know how many of those got broken in transport. (The Nova Cannon being fixed more firmly broke less often.)

It really is as detailed as it gets on the models. The Big Blue Book's only artwork for it is the side-on ship profiles which also lack any real detail.

Tindalos added a lot to models that, by their very nature, couldn't have much detail. shrugs

(Also, note I'm not criticizing the look of Tindalos' Nova cannon, except for the turret bit it looks great.)

yea, it shouldnt be turreted
that does make no sense, no hinge could hold it
but there are more then just models for ships, if you compare the model with drawings it is very very similar
0_1519355608263_Dominator-class_Cruiser.jpg
not the best picture but nova ships have been drawn often, they tend to have a almost smooth exterior to the barrel and the lazerpointerlike thing hanging below, the model is pretty accurate when compared to artwork
ps what is that lazerpointerlike thing under it
almost all pictures i found had a bright light coming of of it, but i assume they dont actually aim the thing using a giant lazer pointer
that is just too ridiculous

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

yea, it shouldnt be turreted
that does make no sense, no hinge could hold it
but there are more then just models for ships, if you compare the model with drawings it is very very similar
0_1519355608263_Dominator-class_Cruiser.jpg

That's what I said, it's the only artwork we have showing a Nova Cannon and those side-on pictures have MASSIVELY less detail than the ships themselves.

alt text
alt text
alt text
alt text

not the best picture but nova ships have been drawn often, they tend to have a almost smooth exterior to the barrel and the lazerpointerlike thing hanging below, the model is pretty accurate when compared to artwork

But you see, that's the fun thing. Except for the side-on pictures (like you posted and I posted above) there actually isn't any other art showing Nova Cannons.

ps what is that lazerpointerlike thing under it
almost all pictures i found had a bright light coming of of it, but i assume they dont actually aim the thing using a giant lazer pointer
that is just too ridiculous

Nah it's not a laser pointer, but I don't think we have any solid information as to what exactly it is. The predominant theories I know of that people have suggested is either
A : Specialised targeting equipment. (Nova Cannons are only inaccurate in gameplay. In Lore they basically sniping weapons.)
or
B : Capacitors to store the power needed to fire such powerful gravity impellers.

Personally B makes the most sense, if they're accurate enough to turn space into a death trap with regular weapons battery fire then the same sensors are probably good enough to fire the Nova Cannon with.

putting capasitators on the outside doesnt seem smart...
but mechanicus

ps why is google getting worse
a year ago i searched for nova cannon pictures and found several pretty good ones
now its bringing up everything except ships with a nova cannon 😒

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

putting capasitators on the outside doesnt seem smart...
but mechanicus

Oh it's smart enough. If your capacitors can charge a device capable of accelerating a projectile to near-light from a standstill, I don't want it inside the ship when it explodes....

Though there are plenty of reasons for it. It might have to do with recoil reduction, or simply a support strut to maintain the weapons structural integrity etc.

Of course, on the bottom line, we all know the answer is "rule of cool" (I suspect so you could tell at a single glance whether it was a Nova Cannon or the ramming spike.)

would that really matter?
if those capacitators explode fully charged for some reason
would there really be a big differense between having it explode outside and melt the entire front of your ship or explode inside and melt the entire front of your ship
😋
personally i would put it behind that giant wedge of armor, probably in the place where the torpedo stockpiles would go if the ship didnt have a nova cannon so nothing from outside could mess with it
a bombing run on capacitators while charged would end very impressively i imagine

but im not a tech priest, im sure they have reasons

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

would that really matter?
if those capacitators explode fully charged for some reason
would there really be a big differense between having it explode outside and melt the entire front of your ship or explode inside and melt the entire front of your ship

The Terminus Est survived having a black hole shell (from a Nova Cannon funnily enough) detonate point blank against its frontal armour. I think they can take a capacitor detonation outside :p

personally i would put it behind that giant wedge of armor, probably in the place where the torpedo stockpiles would go if the ship didnt have a nova cannon so nothing from outside could mess with it
a bombing run on capacitators while charged would end very impressively i imagine

but im not a tech priest, im sure they would have reasons

Bear in mind. Some munitions DO increase the chances of things going wrong like that. On TT if your prow took a critical while you had Melta Torps, you'd automatically get fire crits too.

@ashardalon Given how Macro Cannons work, with a targeting cogitator placed above the barrel, its safe to assume that is the Nova Cannon's Targeting Cogitator (ie, what the ship uses to make accurate adjustments with the weapon before shooting).

so they are aiming it with a giant lazer pointer!
🤣
honestly funny enough to forgive

Mind, the Imperium has access to adamantium and ceramite, which are fictional supermaterials, with both being very, very durable.

As for the nova cannon, on a day I was bored I made the calculations for what a 50 meter calibre, 100 meter long shell made out of neutron star matter (wikipedia figures) would do at 0.9 c.

It was around 1,5x10^32-33 tons,

(10^33 short scale: one decillion; long scale: one thousand quintillion, or one quintilliard)

The Nova cannon, comparedly, fires 50 meter caliber shells at near light speed, which I assume is at least 80 percent of light speed. It can fire neutronium shells, which are most likely akin to neutron star matter. The yield on such a weapon is a Death Star level planet killing blow in the millions of yotta-tons of TNT.

And the plasma warheads were often described as birthing new, exploding suns.

Missile Batteries: A strike cruiser armed with these gives the measurements of missiles at 100m long.

Macrocannons: These railguns are considered to blow up with large enough explosions to blanket enemy ships at AU ranges.

Plasma: 100 million Kelvins will melt things.

Graviton Beamers and Fusion beamers we know very little about.

Well. I'm nearly done with the Tau Navy and will be done fairly soon with all the major factions.
Is there anything in particular people would want me to prioritise?
Speak now or forever hold your peace.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

@caliger_reborn In my clearly unbiased opinion, the Necron Master Race should go first.

@caliger_reborn said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

Well. I'm nearly done with the Tau Navy and will be done fairly soon with all the major factions.
Is there anything in particular people would want me to prioritise?
Speak now or forever hold you peace.

To give you a real challenge.

The Demiurg :p

Just got the new codex, and it is confirmed that the Tomb Blades swarmed in space. They used different macro class weaponry and specifically targeted point defense. Its implied that Night scythes have FTL as they are not only supposed to reconnect with other tomb worlds and search for planets that aren't where they are supposed to be. Doom scythes have the same billions of strategies in nanoseconds quote and it is stated there drive is an upscaled version of the tomb blades gravatic drive. This causes a whine that "plays havoc with memory, perception, and sanity" driving people mad and go catotonic/hallucinate. They also sometimes claw out their eyes. They can also slag a hive city in less than an hour in a squadron. We have confirmation that each tomb world has a Navy, and it looks something like this:
-At the top, under the command of the Overlord-Regent, is the Flagship, Tomb ships SQUADRONS (isn't that scary), capitol ships, and secondary escort squadrons
-Each Tesserarion has a flagship, assualt craft/dropships, and escort squadrons
-At the next level, decurion, it does not mention what they have, but...
-Legions, which are subordinate to decurions, have cruisers, escorts, and attack craft squadron

And thats the 8e update. Hope this helps with your Necron write ups. Looks like the implied "tomb ships won't be rare for long" came true lol

@CALiGeR_Reborn So how is it that you derive the values for ship sizes, mass, acceleration, etc? Do you have any sources beyond the Rogue Trader RPG books? (Especially interested in the Tau values)

@fr05ty said in Ship Profiles: Feedback and Discussion:

@CALiGeR_Reborn So how is it that you derive the values for ship sizes, mass, acceleration, etc? Do you have any sources beyond the Rogue Trader RPG books? (Especially interested in the Tau values)

I'm estimating that CALiGeR_Reborn is conducting educated translations based on a combination of BFG and Rogue Trader. The Rogue Trader values don't make sense with the lore, but as a low end it works.

But if you take a Cobras 30cm movement and Rogue Trader's thrust of 7.6 gees. Using that, one G = 3.947cm of thrust.
A Sword has 25cm movement. In Rogue Trader it has a 4.5 gee thrust. Giving it one G per 5.5cm of thrust.

Now, an Ork Onslaught class Raider has, per Rogue Trader 2-4 gees of acceleration. Taking the upper end (because Rogue Trader goes off sustainable) the Onslaught, in BFG, has a 20cm movement. This gives a 5cm per G of thrust.

As such, we see that the average for escorts is probably 5cm per gee. I could go and get figures for more escorts, and even some for Cruisers. But I can suspect that is how Caliger is getting his figures for ships Rogue Trader doesn't cover. Same with using masses etc.

Am I right @CALiGeR_Reborn ?

@Fr0sty @Kadaeux If hard numbers exist, then I use them, but a lot of what I find is speculation or based on narrative using existing numbers as a reference point.

So, I know that a Sword in most variants can sustain 4.5-4.6 gees of acceleration. I know that most cruisers are normally described as being about half that, and are much less mobile on TT. From that I can work out a ball-park estimate of around 2-3 gee for a line-cruiser. I then look at individual vessel’s lore, mentionings in books and proposed combat role to refine the final number.

I came to the Tau numbers using the same method. Suplimenrary information based on Codex entries (from various editions), lore about individual vessels I picked up in various novels, and how the ships apparently compare to the much better documented Imperial Navy ships.
It’s as accurate as it’s going to get until GeeDubs starts writing down their figures.

Sorry I’ve not been posting for a while btw, its Exam season for me, gotta prioritise.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

The Dirge Entry is welcome and on point, but the Jackal one has...issues. Many issues. For starters your forgot jackals carry jammers. This bit is okay, but issues arise when you try to describe the battle of Orpheus and get nearly everything wrong. I say nearly everything because spelled the battleships name right. You say that almost all escorts were lost, but even assuming there were 300 imperial ships, there would be a maximum of 52 jackals present (300/5=60-2(TS)-6(3HSx2)=52) and 12 left with the sun killer with the majority leaving with the dead hand. Even assuming "the majority" means 1 more than the other side of survivors There would be a minimum of 25 surviving jackals, which is half the maximum they could have started with. This is not almost all. This is part of why the necrons were, as the book put it "hardly defeated" and they didn't even bother to leave the system, and instead headed over to one of the other planets to do something on with its 12 Jackal Escorts. By animating I assume you mean eliminating. Also I don't know where you got the idea but they didn't ram the Arica Dominicus. Three jackals just kind of strolled up and shot it to death before disengaging unharmed. Imperial casualties were at 90+% not 70 and all survivors were damaged. And while it is likely Maynarkh lost several tombworlds to the firebreak, by the time the order was given Necrons controlled something like 70% of the sector. Even assuming every single remaining world was a tomb world, the loss of 30 is not "a mortal wound" by any standard as fully awakened dynasties can stretch from thousands to tens of thousands of worlds. In reality 2-5 of those worlds were likely tombworlds, considering that the orpheus sector is the "outermost edge of Maynark's domains", which is even worse for the imperium as that means those were fringe worlds, as valuable to the necrons as feral worlds are to the imperium. If these were core or crownworlds you might have had a point, but they were all fully awakened by that point elsewhere so as the book says it was "far too late". If these had been coreworlds we would have seen a lot more than 2 tombships and escorts, which is about the size of a single tomb worlds Navy per codex. Given the leader present I would say these were probably all from Kutlak's world, with the rest of his forces securing the rest of the sector. Hopefully this helps.

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas

@nemesor-xanxas I’m not happy with it either, it was rushed, some poor choices of words.

I defend that the battle must have included hundreads of Imperial vessels in order for it to be consistent with escort to capital ship ratios in the Imperial Navy. Since there where 11 battleships and what must have been at least 50 other assorted capital ships if they where with full fleets. A conservative estimate would say twice that in escorts but it’s more likely there where 6 times (or more) the number of escorts present for the capital ship numbers to make any sense. Potentially several hundreds Imperial vessels being present in total, as most (if not all) of an entire battlefleet was deployed along with reinforcements from across the Segmentum Tempestus. And that’s before I start counting Space Marine vessels.

As for the whole pyric victory thing, it’s by perspective, I write these from the point of view of the Imperium so of course it’s going to over-state Necron losses. Although it was a Necron victory overall, the battle in question was inconclusive. Necrons hardly won the fight either.

Still, I’ll be rewriting it, probably tomorrow. It wasn’t portrayed the way I wanted, but didn’t get time to rewrite it, and didnt want to lose what I’d already written.

last edited by CALiGeR_Reborn

@caliger_reborn I was thinking 5 times as many, not that it really matters. That's mostly as I feel that Warhammer authors have no sense of scale, the macharius chrusade was supposed to be huge and had millions of guardsmen where it should have had trillions if not quadrillions for example. My personal estimate has the battle containing 372 (300+60 cruisers+12BB) to 600ish due to the several in several hundred meaning 3+ but not to many more than 3. I used the lower number because as I mentioned 40k authors have scale issues and thats about how I think the author meant it. I mostly took an issue with the 5ish worlds being a deathblow to a dynasty thing, it sounds like the rest was mostly wording lol. I hadn't realized that these were perspective pieces, sorry if any of that sounded hostile to you. I agree about the victory thing, whether or not the Necrons could have kept going they didn't so they can't claim victory here. I would have loved to see the battle onscreen somewhere though, it sounds amazing in the book and they barely even talk about the details. I can understand the rushed bit though, posts can be a huge pain to rewrite and losing them is irritating. Thanks for responding!

last edited by Nemesor Xanxas