The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Updated To July 11th Hotfix]

@MarksmanMax it's probably in there already (great OP btw), I'm just stupidly frustrated at the fact that the bots will still acquire you as a target and shoot you in the head with a greater accuracy and speed than I have ever seen in PvP. It completely breaks hardcore co-op when a random-number-generator suddenly decides that it's time for you to say goodbye to all your equipment that you only still have because you managed to fight your way through droves of the same bots that just one-hit-killed you.

@seiden said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics:

It completely breaks hardcore co-op when a random-number-generator suddenly decides that it's time for you to say goodbye to all your equipment that you only still have because you managed to fight your way through droves of the same bots that just one-hit-killed you.

All of my issues with Hardcore Checkpoint basically boils down to the current HC mechanics not working well in tandem with the current bot AI.

Changed the rarity of 100% first-shot accuracy occurrences, for infantry and Technical weapons, because I've recently had it happen 5+ times per game.

12 upvotes? Damn. At this rate, this thread is gonna be the second most upvoted thread on this subforum, next to my post on damage reflection lmao.

@MarksmanMax Well said Marksman. salute Thumbs up from me.

last edited by Max80

Added in a video I made that basically sums up how Hardcore Checkpoint plays with these bugs in the game.

Added in another bot issue where they nearly instakill players with melee attacks. It was actually far worse a few updates ago, but it's still a problem occasionally.

I've had the opportunity to analyze such an infamous "out-of-nowhere-first-shot-kill" using the history/replay function.

Marksman/Mosin bot started to track my avatar in a distance of approx 70-80m. No line of visibility. Bot brought itself in position and shot in my general direction approx. 60m away without aiming animation - and still no visibility from both sides due to foliage and ground.

Bull's-eye.

The worst thing: there was absolutely no detectable time delay between triggering the shot resp. muzzle flash and hitting the avatar.
Bullets on light speed. Nice.
The trajectory of the bullet even had to go partly (but not much) through the ground.
The bot's aming animation started after the shot. Funny.

By the way... another player which was the whole time at half the distance between my avatar and the bot got completely ingnored. Make a guess of our levels... 😇 Coincidence?Yeah, I know, this correlation is officially denied, but... this happens too often. 🤔

@Helsing1789 said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics:

The worst thing: there was absolutely no detectable time delay between triggering the shot resp. muzzle flash and hitting the avatar.
Bullets on light speed. Nice.

I certainly wouldn't call that the worst thing here. Only moderately annoying at most. The Mosin has a muzzle velocity north of 800m/s, so at that range you'd be realistically seeing a bullet flight time of under 0.1 second. That's pretty close to instant as far as human reaction goes.

Everything else, yah, one-shot kills through concealment at moderate range. Definitely a problem.

@MAA_Bunny said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics:

I certainly wouldn't call that the worst thing here. Only moderately annoying at most. The Mosin has a muzzle velocity north of 800m/s, so at that range you'd be realistically seeing a bullet flight time of under 0.1 second. That's pretty close to instant as far as human reaction goes.

If it's below 0.1 seconds, the shot is hitscan so it travels instantly.

@Helsing1789 said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics:

Make a guess of our levels...

This is something I've still gotta test, if I even can.

Welp, guess I'll bump this thread since giving the bots in Frenzy Molotovs has now made Frenzy annoying to play, as well. I liked Frenzy since it didn't have any issues with first-shot accuracy or laser guided Molotovs, but NWI decided that the Frenzy bots needed LGMS for some fucking reason.

Hello everyone!

Thank you for your feedback.
@MarksmanMax Thanks for this impressive list. I'll pass it on to NWI, so they can look into it.

@chaton said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics:

Thanks for this impressive list. I'll pass it on to NWI, so they can look into it.

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Ooh, some good news, finally! NWI posted in the 1.3 Update some bug fixes for the AI:

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I'll have to give this a test, myself, but it looks good so far. LGMS is hopefully reduced, and eliminated with incendiary weapons entirely! This also claims to fix the AI failing to retreat bug and some possible accuracy issues.

I am scared by the "Ambushing AI will enter ADS when hearing threats" though. Might be broken.

Added in some more notes about the changes brought by the new update. The AI is far from fixed, though; I've seen some ridiculous kills by the bots in HC and Frenzy. I'll need more playtime to really figure out what the bugs are, though.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@MarksmanMax said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Currently Updating To 1.13]:

Added in some more notes about the changes brought by the new update. The AI is far from fixed, though; I've seen some ridiculous kills by the bots in HC and Frenzy. I'll need more playtime to really figure out what the bugs are, though.

"Far from fixed" is an understatement. I don't have a problem with the new molotov mechanic, I understand why it was added. What is completely absurd is that bots will now simply stop in their tracks and start throwing molotovs at players (en masse). This behaviour occurs even when the player and the bot have a perfectly fine line of access that the bot could run at the player via, but instead they stop and pull out their mollies. This seems to occur when there is any sort of minor difference in elevation between the player and the bot, or a minor obstacle (which the bots could just walk around), or when players have been detected but are around a corner. The bots don't even bother to navigate their way to the player, they just start spamming molotovs unless there's a perfectly straight line of access to the player.

I hope NWI puts some focus on actually fixing the AI instead of adding more 1x optics.

@seiden said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Currently Updating To 1.13]:

This behaviour occurs even when the player and the bot have a perfectly fine line of access that the bot could run at the player via, but instead they stop and pull out their mollies. This seems to occur when there is any sort of minor difference in elevation between the player and the bot, or a minor obstacle (which the bots could just walk around), or when players have been detected but are around a corner. The bots don't even bother to navigate their way to the player, they just start spamming molotovs unless there's a perfectly straight line of access to the player.

Lmao. I actually updated the OP before you posted this with something very similar:

" -> Common: In Frenzy, bots throw Molotovs at players even if they can reach them to attack with their kukri. They seem to find it "impossible" to reach a player if any outstanding object is between them and the player, and doesn't take into account whether or not they can path around it. For instance, I was spotted by a bot in a pretty open area, but there was a barrel between me and him. While he could've easily just pathed around the barrel to reach me, he pulled out his Molotov Cocktail instead. This could still use some more testing, so if anyone else sees behavior occur, let me know."

@seiden said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Currently Updating To 1.13]:

I hope NWI puts some focus on actually fixing the AI instead of adding more 1x optics.

I mean, they've done something about it, at least. NWI's already exceeding my expectations for fixing the AI lmao.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Added in an edit about the 1.13.1 hotfix. While bots throw Molotovs less often, they still throw them even if they can reach you; there just has to be a larger difference in height or a larger obstacle between the bot and the player.

I'm starting to wonder if NWI is capable of fixing anything AI-related at this point. They haven't even tried to fix FSA (First Shot Accuracy), the max-firerate bug, IA (Insane Accuracy; basically the opposite of FSA), and bots tracking through walls, and they failed to fix LGMS (Laser Guided Molotov System), FTFB (Failure To Fall Back), and bot lock-on time being the same for all players. It's getting annoying, and I'm getting tired of waiting.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Yep, the molotovs are reduced, but substituted by frags. Guided frags are less obvious compared to molotovs because they are invisible und not audible most of the time and have an increased effective radius in comparison. And the "lower as 100ms" bots have doubled or even tripled.

In the moment there is a good possibility to study bot behaviour because of the free weekend. Alot of "zeros" and a few high levels on the servers and it's funny - or not so funny - to see how the higher levels are tracked and attacked without a line of visibility just by their movement vector. At the same time you can see how low levels are intentionally missed and ignored over a long period of time. So, have "fun".

For me personally this "A.I." represents an absolute low point in the development of the last decade.

Pure fake A.I.

last edited by Helsing1789

@Helsing1789 said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Currently Updating To 1.13.1]:

Yep, the molotovs are reduced, but substituted by frags. Guided frags are less obvious compared to molotovs because they are invisible und not audible most of the time and have an increased effective radius in comparison.

Well, technically, since the AI can no longer "blindfire" Molotovs (even though I'm convinced that that's bullshit), then they would throw frags instead. While Molotovs have an insane instakill radius of at least 4-5 meters, frag grenades can take down a player at full HP from nine meters if they aren't wearing armor.

@Helsing1789 said in The Current Bot AI - Bugs, Suggestions & Tactics [Currently Updating To 1.13.1]:

In the moment there is a good possibility to study bot behaviour because of the free weekend. Alot of "zeros" and a few high levels on the servers and it's funny - or not so funny - to see how the higher levels are tracked and attacked without a line of visibility just by their movement vector. At the same time you can see how low levels are intentionally missed and ignored over a long period of time.

That is true. Right now would be a fantastic way to test the AI with the new players. I'll have to jump into some regular Checkpoint to see for myself.

So, have "fun".

Lmao. The new players will have fun, until they get higher level and start getting curbstomped. I'm convinced the Ai target higher-level players. I'll add that in if it isn't there.