Everybody is avoiding Gunner class (LMG recoil)

Hi !

I'm playing hardcore coop and every single time I tried, the Gunner class is only picked when no other choice is available. The insane recoil on LMGs make them unplayable and useless at 10+ meters, unless prone and bipoded. Everyone's avoiding it if they can... Ins2014 didn't have that kind of recoil, I don't get it...

EDIT : Ways to balance that do not imply having uncontrolable recoil :

  • Make LMGs sway similar to M99/M82 sway when standing up (and something like half that value when crouching)
  • Make recoil progressive (firing from standing/crouched position for 0.5 to 1sec before recoil starts to get unmanageable)
  • Decrease weapon switching speed (so that you're very vulnerable when out of bullets)
  • Increase hip-fire recoil (so that you are forced to ADS and waste a few moments before being able to fire due to ADS time)
last edited by Grumf

@Grumf said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class:

Hi !

I'm playing hardcore coop and every single time I tried, the Gunner class is only picked when no other choice is available. The insane recoil on LMGs make them unplayable and useless at 10+ meters, unless prone and bipoded. Everyone's avoiding it if they can... Ins2014 didn't have that kind of recoil, I don't get it...

Eh, I'm guessing it's probably a weight thing more than anything. I don't mind playing Gunner at all; the LMGs extremely useful for locking down lanes once deployed.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@MarksmanMax Once deployed. That's the trick. It's hard to find someone to watch your back when deployed. And it's only useful when "settled" on an objective. In transit between two points it's just garbage, really...

There's just no reason why LMGs should kick that much. It wasn't a problem in Ins2014, I don't really get why it's a problem now. I don't see that as being a weight problem. You can move rather quickly without armour. Play demolitions with a rocket launcher is heavy too, yet people do it. They're globally avoiding Gunner because it's just not worth it. Any assault rifle, even in smaller calibers, are more efficient.

I'm only talking about coop, though. PVP might be a different story (or not). I wouldn't know that, I rarely play those game modes.

@Grumf said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class:

In transit between two points it's just garbage, really...

It's not garbage. It's still useful for covering your team if they have to push a relatively-open area.

The garbage part is trying to catch up with your team when they're all on the objective lmao.

@Grumf said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class:

There's just no reason why LMGs should kick that much. It wasn't a problem in Ins2014, I don't really get why it's a problem now.

I think it's only a problem because 75% of Sandstorm's LMGs fire battle rifle cartridges.

With that said, the M249 could use a pretty good recoil decrease because it's basically just an M4A1 with 200 rounds. It should still kick more though, for balance.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@Grumf said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class:

It wasn't a problem in Ins2014, I don't really get why it's a problem now.

Also, not to be "that guy" or anything, but Sandstorm isn't really like Ins2014 at all. LMGs in that game weren't really imbalanced because a standard M4 would one-shot your ass anyway, and LMGs had slower ADS times than other weapons.

i agree that the sway is too high and recoil just makes them not fun to use tbh

I also agree that the MG´s have too much recoil. The only reason to have it is "gamebalance" as they have so much more ammo than any other rifle in the game.

@Grumf said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class:

Once deployed. That's the trick. It's hard to find someone to watch your back when deployed. And it's only useful when "settled" on an objective. In transit between two points it's just garbage, really...

I totally agree to this. This impatience is a common problem of players in almost any game where players don´t know each other.
That doesn´t happen often when you play with friends or clanmates.
Another good reason to play on custom servers only, where you hopefully get teammates that you already know and can rely on as they keeping you tangos away from your flanks and back while having deployed the MG.

There's just no reason why LMGs should kick that much. It wasn't a problem in Ins2014, I don't really get why it's a problem now. I don't see that as being a weight problem. You can move rather quickly without armour. Play demolitions with a rocket launcher is heavy too, yet people do it. They're globally avoiding Gunner because it's just not worth it. Any assault rifle, even in smaller calibers, are more efficient.

I'm only talking about coop, though. PVP might be a different story (or not). I wouldn't know that, I rarely play those game modes.

At least for COOP games the Devs should rethink about tuning down the recoil !
And anyone who wants to tell me that MG´s in real life do have a huge recoil too should look at this video where a soldier is holding a MG with just one hand firing from hip with almost no recoil at all :
Youtube Video

This guy can even handle two MG´s at the same time ! He is getting pushed back by the firing weapons recoil, yes, but the barrels don´t rise as in Insurgency Sandstorm
Youtube Video

So if you use both hands ( stabilizing the weapon barrel with your second hand ) it should be pretty easy to fire that MG very precisely from hip with no recoil at all.
In Sandstorm MG´s need lower recoil, definatly ! At least in COOP games !

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

Yup. During beta, the gunner class was one of the most popular since it was so OP. Now it's probably the least popular due to it being nerfed down the drain. There has to be some kind of middle-ground between "totally OP" and "worthless".

Also, the "game balance" isn't an proper argument... I mean... When LMGs are outclassed in every single way possible by standard assault rifles, I have trouble finding where the balance is...

Of course, they fire full sized cartridges, and have lots of ammo (except for the M240B and MG3 that both have low-capacity boxes by default). That's kind of the point. They however take ages to reload, they are heavy and you can't ads quickly...

Any rifle lets you ads quickly, and even though they have lesser capacity magazines, they still reload in just a few seconds. They have great fire rate too and pretty good damage even on longer distances. I just don't see LMGs as a viable option atm. I'm only using them when I want to horse around. When things get serious, I'm forced back to more efficient weapons. Which are any one of them, really.

EDIT : Both the M99 and M82 anti-materiel DMRs have a high amount of sway. It's way more erratic than that of the LMGs too. Why not use the same model for the LMGs ? That'd help with balance without having utterly unrealistic and unplayable recoil. The recoil could also be progressive, so that shooting when not deployed would only be efficient when firing for 0.5 to 1sec. Balancing can be done without being lazy, that's all I'm saying.

last edited by Grumf

Bump.
Edited to add some potential solutions that would make playing a gunner fun again.

The LMGs kick like a mule, even if you tap the trigger while crouched or prone they kick like hell, sure they are very heavy weapons but it's no fun having to require a bipod being deployed to even use it.

the M249 and the M4 fire the same round, so how come I can slap a drum mag in the m4 and go full auto without a foregrip and control the recoil better while standing and not using focus than i can a m249 while crouched and while focusing?

The LMGs seriously need reworking to even be usable at this rate imo. I loved using the m249 on Insurgency while playing maps like Ministry and Sinjar, yet I don't touch them on Sandstorm as they are just really bad.

@Depleted This. LMGs are just no fun to use. They're boring, frustratingly underpowered due to the recoil. It's kinda sad to be disappointed when you have to choose between Gunner and Rifleman, because you wish you could use an LMG but you know you'll have more fun with a G3 or a simple AKM.

last edited by Grumf

Since the update I noticed an increase in recoil too. It's borderline impossible to aim with a 3x scope or higher.

as everyone's said the high recoil makes the guns almost impossible to use, even with a bi-pod the new map design when compared to INS2 is completely different and means that static bi-pod use isn't feasible cause the infinite amount of angles u can be shot from, and yeah there just not fun to play with. i've heard ppl say they were op in INS2 but that never seamd the case, only 2 ppl could use them and whats 100 rounds to my 30 when 1-3 will kill

The only LMG that I can still play with is the PKM, actually. The recoil on it is not "that" terrible. It's too much, but one-tap shots are still a possibility. The real nonsense here is that a PKM has a more manageable recoil than a M249...

In real life, hip fire is pretty inaccurate, so I think maybe a reduction in recoil but a larger sway zone would be a good compromise there. That would make hip fire close in viable, but keep it from headshotting people across the map.

As for accuracy, with an M249 standing I could reliably hit stuff first round out to about 200m, where I could do the same with an M16 out to 300+. The weight of the gun makes standing shooting difficult, and while the recoil is low, just keeping the gun on target is a challenge.

From the prone, I could reliably hit 400m man sized targets with single shots on the M249, and out to about 600m with the M240B (with optics).

So, the guns themselves are remarkably accurate, the "realistic" debuff would be to increase the sway rather than recoil.

@jballou

the "realistic" debuff would be to increase the sway rather than recoil.

Exactly this. M99 sway when ADS would be fair.

I agree, LMGs in the game are precisely ZERO fun to use due to the insane recoil.

@Congas said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class (LMG recoil):

I agree, LMGs in the game are precisely ZERO fun to use due to the insane recoil.

It's great when you can mow down waves of bots with an LMG.

That being said, it's not great when bots snipe you in three seconds before you can even deploy your M249.

@jballou said in Everybody is avoiding Gunner class (LMG recoil):

In real life, hip fire is pretty inaccurate, so I think maybe a reduction in recoil but a larger sway zone would be a good compromise there. That would make hip fire close in viable, but keep it from headshotting people across the map.

I'm perfectly fine with hipfire having a bit more recoil. The issue is that hipfire has so much horizontal recoil, so firearms bounce around like crazy when you're hipfiring.

That being said, the vertical recoil increase with hipfire is currently also insane. 5.56 assault rifles kick like .308 battle rifles.

There's 2 ways to use LMGs effectively in the game TBH:-

  1. Mount and lay fire down a kill zone at any range (very effective when done right).
  2. Rambo it and hose down an area with hip fire for CQB (shockingly effective in confined quarters).

There's also the fact that the guns here are GPMGs, which are less accurate (since their primary use is suppression fire) and aren't considered all that useful unless given a proper kill zone to work with. That's why the marines are considering more controllable and accurate alternatives for CQB such as the M27 IAR.

And before we even talk about that video above, please consider that the individual in question is hip firing and not actually aiming down the sights with the MG. They're doing the equivalent of hosing an area, not laying down any sort of accurate fire.

The fact is that the gunner class really shines when used as squad support in maps with longer sight lines (where it can get a large number of kills and suppress the enemy effectively). In CQB, you're better off either hip firing, firing in very small bursts or picking an AR with a bipod for an impromptu IAR.

Yes that means that the gunner has problems on maps like Outskirts, and it also means that you can sort of replace them for those maps with an AR and a bipod. But that's the nature of the GPMG, and I think that's what were gonna get till they add in IARs such as the M27.