Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf

The problem with foregrips is that they practically trivialise the vertical recoil on most guns due to them providing a massive 5-6 points of reduction to vertical recoil.

This becomes especially egregious on Bsttle Rifles such as the FAL, whose one important weakness is easily neutralised by the addition of a foregrip.

This also makes the choice between them and compensators a no brainer in favour of the VFG since the effects of the foregrip are much more palpable and substantial.

IMO this can be solved by toning down the recoil reduction from foregrips to 1-2 points (since a reduction in vertical recoil is also much more palpable than one to horizontal recoil). This would allow foregrips to remain a useful tool, while making them an option rather than the compulsory meta pick.

@cool_lad I'd argue that most Sandstorm weapons have little recoil anyway. At least, if you fire while crouching you can forget about needing a foregrip ever again.

Battle rifles are only as good as they are because all of the assault rifles are garbage in comparison. I can also control them pretty easily without a foregrip.

Compensators I think need to be cheaper anyway, but they help a ton for weapons with high horizontal recoil or if you want to make your weapon easier to hipfire.

@cool_lad Ya I donโ€™t notice much diff at all going from no attachments to using both Foregrip and Comp on most weapons but what ever... Anywhoo I think Sandstorm needs a nerf and Insurgency needs a buff!!!

Foregrips are pretty much irreverent with a bit of practice or when you go prone. So I'm not sure i understand your point. Maybe its because im just used to using an FAL without one?

As I've said 943023 times on other posts my opinion is that everything that isn't a battle rifle is under powered.

If lower calibers were buffed or player HP was nerfed. Then yes i would be 100% for an increase in recoil for welll... everything

last edited by Turyl

Contrary to your uneducated beliefs recoil doesn't make muzzles climb like video games make you believe. explosive gasses don't work that way son.

Foregrips work as intended to aid in handling the barrel with ease and more dexterity. If you dont like them then dont use them. If you dont like being killed by people using them then play against bots or get better and learn to shoot.

@Depleted said in Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf:

Contrary to your uneducated beliefs recoil doesn't make muzzles climb like video games make you believe. explosive gasses don't work that way son.

Foregrips work as intended to aid in handling the barrel with ease and more dexterity. If you dont like them then dont use them. If you dont like being killed by people using them then play against bots or get better and learn to shoot.

You do know that the VFG only does one thing in the game? All it does is reduce vertical recoil. And while I am well aware of how recoil works in real life, this is a game and thus uses its own conventions.

I'd love for the VFG to only add to easier barrel movement and general handling, but that's not what it does. So understand that I'm saying this as politely as I possibly can when I point out that all you've done is display your utter and complete ignorance as to the game mechanics and the effects of the VFG within the game.

I'd suggest you read the actual post and respond to the point made instead of attempting to use a straw man argument.

@MarksmanMax my gripe with the VFG is that it reduces the recoil on Battle Rifles that were notorious for their massive recoil (to the extent that armies actually removed the full auto mode altogether and eventually dropped the guns altogether in favour of ARs) to that of an AR.

When the FAL loses its high recoil (due to the VFG), it becomes a meta gun in that it, while retaining all its advantages, also loses its most significant disadvantage and thus becomes a gun with no actual drawback. It combines very controllable (AR like) recoil with high stopping power and a high rate of fire.

I think Foregrip would be better balanced with all weapons if the vertical reduction was a fixed number and not a percentage. Some of the vertical reduction should also be moved from Foregrip to Compensator. Good values would be something like:

  • Foregrip -3 vertical recoil
  • Compensator -2 vertical recoil and the current % reduction to horizontal recoil

Currently with SMGs and Shotguns the Compensator does reduce both vertical and horizontal recoil. It should work the same way with all weapons.

last edited by Action83

@Depleted said in Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf:

Contrary to your uneducated beliefs recoil doesn't make muzzles climb like video games make you believe. explosive gasses don't work that way son.

Foregrips work as intended to aid in handling the barrel with ease and more dexterity. If you dont like them then dont use them.

I don't know what your experiences with firearms is, but "muzzle climb" is absolutely a real effect that recoil has on guns. How much any gun exhibits muzzle climb depends on the caliber and how the gun is mechanically designed to transfer the recoil impulse to the shooter.

Vertical foregrips, in real life, do very little to directly help with recoil control. They aid in hand placement and pulling the rifle into the shoulder pocket but that can be done with hand stops or without any accessories at all. There are plenty of extremely effective shooters who have found that devices other than vertical grips work better for them. Compensators / muzzle breaks are far more effective at reducing felt recoil than grips.

I served 6 years in the british royal engineers, I've experienced a wide range of different firearms.

Vertical/angled grips do help with recoil control, you saying they don't shows you have no experience using them in the real world. Christ it's like you kids watch your modern warfare gameplay and think you're experts on the subjects, smh.

@Depleted I'm not a kid and I don't play Modern Warfare. I've used vertical grips, angled grips, hand stops and some other devices that don't fit neatly into either category (BCM's KAG for example) and fired many thousands of rounds on dynamic ranges with them. While different accessories are more comfortable for me than others, in my experience none of them make recoil significantly more controllable compared to any other device, so long as good grip technique is used.

Good grip technique absolutely has an effect on recoil control, but simply slapping a vertical grip on a rifle does not change the way the rifle recoils. Compensaters and muzzle breaks, however, certainly do change the way the weapon recoils once they're installed.

I'm still curious what you mean by "recoil doesn't make muzzles climb like video games make you believe" - recoil pushes the gun rearwards and causes it to rotate around its center of mass, which for virtually all firearms in existence means the muzzle end of the gun goes up. Sure, the experience of shooting a gun in real life is rather different than watching it on a screen, there's no way around that, but Sandstorm does a pretty decent job of it.

@Depleted at least get your story straight. First you claim that you think that VFGs don't affect recoil at all, then you say that they affect recoil. Get a cohesive and concise argument instead of positing incoherently.

Anyways, the point here is simple; I'm not arguing against the VFG giving vertical recoil reduction (which is a design decision) but rather against the sheer amount of reduction that it gives.

In a game where even a single point reduction in vertical recoil is appreciably felt, the VFG gives a massive amount of reduction. It gives the FAL and G3A3 (guns so notoriously uncontrollable on full auto even under optimal conditions that they where abandoned by armies worldwide; which were very often considered only usable in semi auto mode, to the extent that entire variants were created which removed full auto entirely, such as the L1A1) the vertical recoil of the G36K and the M4 respectively.

My point rather simply is that the VFG should, even if it reduces recoil, only do so by 1-2 points so that the guns actually still feel like the same guns when using a VFG. Right now, slapping a VFG on a gun makes it feel like a completely different gun due to the massive drop in vertical recoil.

This, in my opinion, isn't an issue. I actually argue that the guns need a little less recoil in general.
Remember, this game is supposed to be a fast pace, tactical, CQB style game. The fact that crouching and proning offer 30% and less than half the recoil of stand is really unbalanced. Now, it does make sense that laying down would offer more accuracy irl, but if they were going for irl...well they aren't.
I'd say reduce scope sway and recoil for standing, and adjust crouching and proning to balance it more evenly out. Not saying that proning should have the same amount of recoil as standing, just what I said... And some guns are fine as they are for recoil...

@cool_lad said in Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf:

My point rather simply is that the VFG should, even if it reduces recoil, only do so by 1-2 points so that the guns actually still feel like the same guns when using a VFG. Right now, slapping a VFG on a gun makes it feel like a completely different gun due to the massive drop in vertical recoil.

I agree. And as I alluded to earlier, I'd also like to see compensaters have a larger effect on recoil than grips. Not only would this be more realistic, it would make for a more interesting game mechanic - you'd need to choose between reducing recoil and adding a suppressor.

@CatNipples said in Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf:

This, in my opinion, isn't an issue. I actually argue that the guns need a little less recoil in general.

Nope. Recoil is already on the weak side of realistic (except for the MGs), so if anything I'd like to see it go up a bit. But the better choice is probably to keep recoil exactly where it is and tone down the recoil-reducing mechanics.

The fact that crouching and proning offer 30% and less than half the recoil of stand is really unbalanced. Now, it does make sense that laying down would offer more accuracy irl, but if they were going for irl...well they aren't.

This I agree with. There's not much different in terms of body mechanics when it comes to dealing with recoil while standing versus crouching. Recoil should be almost exactly the same. Sway should be reduced when crouching, but it should not have much effect on recoil. It's silly how much room clearing I do while crouched in the game. It makes no sense in real life.

@MAA_Bunny I am just going to go out and say that you are a coop player. I can tell by how you talk. I am taking this topic from a competitive standpoint and/or just PVP standpoint in general. The game would almost be unplayable for comp if the recoil was raised.

@CatNipples Completely correct. I play mostly co-op, versus only rarely, and have never touched competitive. I don't play any other games competitively either, so I really have no idea what works and doesn't for that type of play ๐Ÿ™‚

Foregrips are useless and need a buff. The recoil in this game is ridiculous. I do not even use them recently because they are a waste of points.

last edited by Grave

@CatNipples there's also the fact that this game bills itself on being more realistic, especially when it comes to its weapons. That's what separates it from the pack.

Recoil, especially on the Battle Rifles is fine without foregrips so long as you exercise trigger discipline. And if anything, the foregrips are an even bigger issue in the PvP since they overpower the G3 and FAL by removing their biggest drawback (their recoil), turning them into meta guns that combine a lot of damage with AR levels of vertical recoil.

Ok? And? There will always be a "meta" gun. There will always be metas in general. CSGO has the AK47 and it's a meta gun. Your argument has no backing.

@CatNipples said in Foregrips are far too good and need a nerf:

Ok? And? There will always be a "meta" gun. There will always be metas in general. CSGO has the AK47 and it's a meta gun. Your argument has no backing.

Well, while some guns are better than others in Ins2014, there wasn't really a clear weapon meta, mainly because AP and HP were so effective. Even with standard ammo, all weapons are capable of one-shotting someone in the arm and head, so you can still shit on people.