Remove hit scan

I'd like to see the hit scan being removed so that only the projectile based bullets are left.
I don't understand why hit scan needs be part of a game that is supposed to be realistic / semi realistic. Bullets don't hit instantly.
There are a few times when I'm trying to zero in on a target and I find myself shooting in front of them, but then end up looking like an ass, because of hit scan. At range there should be a small delay.
https://youtu.be/amXsjY8zpls?t=984
Even when you only look at when the target gets hit (since hearing the ping might come a bit later due to the speed of sound) you can clearly see there's a delay even at that range.

I'd also like to have visible tracer round. Perhaps it could be a feature which you can toggle at the weapon customization. This way if someone is going for full on stealth, they won't get tracers, but if you want to see where you'Re shooting at, then you can enable tracers. Tracers MUST represent the actual bullets trajectory. It should NOT be similar, it should be the exact same.

I'm not sure if it's hit scan, but I find it hard to kill moving targets. In other games, RS2, I do pretty well when shooting at moving targets.

I'd like to see a more realistic ballistics system in place too.

That said, I understand why they made the choices they did. Hitscan is faster and more efficient for net code. It also means players don't need to understand ballistics - if a truly realistic ballistics system were implemented we'd probably have tons of players complaining that guns shoot 3" low at short range and 3" high at long range (and at least some of them would probably complain that such variation is not "realistic").

But I'd still like to see realistic ballistics.

@MAA_Bunny said in Remove hit scan:

I'd like to see a more realistic ballistics system in place too.

That said, I understand why they made the choices they did. Hitscan is faster and more efficient for net code. It also means players don't need to understand ballistics - if a truly realistic ballistics system were implemented we'd probably have tons of players complaining that guns shoot 3" low at short range and 3" high at long range (and at least some of them would probably complain that such variation is not "realistic").

But I'd still like to see realistic ballistics.

I don't think that ballistics is that much of a problem nowadays. A lot of games have this implemented including main stream titles like Battlefield, Ghost Recon Wildlands and others, but I do get what you mean.
The problem is Sandstorm advertised itself as a hardcore realistic shooter. So if someone is suprised that it'd have actual realistic ballistics, like bullet drop, it's on them.

@Grave
I've never once seen actual tracer rounds, let alone it being impossible, since the first 100 meters (or I don't know how much) is hitscan, which means it's instant hit. No actual bullet, therefor there's no real tracer. Maybe an added effect that has nothing to do with the bullets.

I know Wildlands is far from realistic, especially with it's slow moving bullets (almost like watching airsoft lol), but I think the tracer rounds look pretty neat. There's something satisfying about being able to look at what you're shooting:
Youtube Video – [01:15..]

@Sgt-Kanyo The only shooter I'm aware of to implement an actually realistic ballistics system is ARMA (and that has its own whole host of problems). I've never played Battlefield, so I can't comment on that one. The Wildlands ballistics system is about as realistic as Sandstorm's; near as I can tell the projectile flies strait out of the barrel and then starts to drop by a set amount at a prescribed distance. The only difference is bullets in Wildlands fly agonizingly slow, while Sandstorm is instant for the first part of its flight. Honestly, I prefer the way Sandstorm does it to Wildlands.

Because this is insurgency and they had hit scan in the 2014 game and it worked so why not. It wasn’t a big deal

This is the LAST thing they should be changing when there are SO many other problems in the game.

The ranges in the game are very small for the most part. Depending on the map and play style its uncommon to get in engagements over 100m. Depending on the situation, little to no lead would ever be necessary at most ranges in the game anyways. For this reason alone it wouldn't make sense to change to a system that puts most of your engagements at a determent so the minority can ''be more realistic''

@Turyl said in Remove hit scan:

This is the LAST thing they should be changing when there are SO many other problems in the game.

The ranges in the game are very small for the most part. Depending on the map and play style its uncommon to get in engagements over 100m. Depending on the situation, little to no lead would ever be necessary at most ranges in the game anyways. For this reason alone it wouldn't make sense to change to a system that puts most of your engagements at a determent so the minority can ''be more realistic''

This. That's why the current system of a mix was developed to begin with.

Also tracer rounds exist and already are already visible when fired, if they are selected. Case in point:

20190620201056_1.jpg 20190620201110_1.jpg

All MG's have tracers enabled on by default, as well.

last edited by Olanov

That last picture is a very good representation of what I meant. Tracer round is there and yet the bullet already hit the target giving it some smoke.
I agree that Sandstorm doesn't have big areas, which really is a huge problem in itself. Like why would you ever use a sniper if it's CQB all the time. But I actually always try to take out the enemy from as far as I can (quite a few times from 100+ meters). At that range the projectile velocity matters. I guess I'm still hoping that bots won't be able to hit me from 100-150 meters.

Completely unrelated, I think the STALKER series has some amazing projectile system. The bullets come from the barrel, they have their own travel distance (when they start to drop), their own velocity and it can use tracer rounds (every one of them, or every 5, or switched off altogether, whatever you want). Haven't played ARMA too much, since it overcomplicates everything way too much for my taste.

I was spraying full auto, meaning bullets were near constantly hitting the wall, just an FYI. Smoke was there regardless of that tracer round in motion. Sandstorm has a mix of open and closed areas so the open engagements are limited but 100% viable for said people who choose to engage in them, they're only more uncommon.

It should be pointed out that although Sandstorm is pseudo-realistic, at it's core Insurgency even in 2014 days, like Day of Infamy was a mixture of arcade & realism, neither dominating the game - and the "hitscan's" (not really hitscan iirc) doing it's job just fine in that setting, for the intensity of CQB and then simulated ballistics for longer range. What's more questionable are the actual hit registration issues that have occurred throughout the game's life cycle so far.

Youtube Video – [40:20..]

last edited by Olanov

@Sgt-Kanyo said in Remove hit scan:

At that range the projectile velocity matters. I guess I'm still hoping that bots won't be able to hit me from 100-150 meters.

And at that distance, Sandstorm is using a ballistics system calculating both projectile flight time and a rudimentary bullet drop. The game only uses hitscan if the projectile flight time is under a tenth of a second.

Just to clarify, IIRC the system is a mix of hitscan and normal ballistics. The shot acts as hitscan for 0.1 seconds before switching to normal ballistics.

So for example, a bullet with a velocity of 950 will act as a hitscan for a distance of 95 meters, while one with a velocity of 800 will be hitscan for upto 80 meters.

@Sgt-Kanyo My only issue with the current system is that it's near-impossible to tell if the range you're shooting at actually requires you to account for ballistics. Hitscan is nice and all, since that was what Ins2014 had, but I'd rather prefer all-hitscan or all-ballistic instead of the current system. It's annoying to try and figure out why I'm failing to hit shots at moving targets; is it because I'm leading too much or not at all? Who knows? Just a few meters can make the difference between hitting your target and missing him entirely.

That's the problem for me, that at range which I mentioned I was still experiencing instant hits. Like MarksmanMax said, it's very hard to tell when you "switch" to projectile based ballistics. Also the core idea of having 2 seperate is just messed up, let alone that for some reason it feels like, there's a gap there. Can't really put my hands on it.

As for DOI and Insurgency I feel those games were much more realistic (damage wise, tactics wise, bots wise, especially DOI). The hitscan there was a problem for me, but it was on the old Source engine. It's a miracle NWI managed to get that much out of it, so it was fine back then. I mean the Source engine is from HL2, so we can't expect proper realistic ballistics from it.

@Sgt-Kanyo Something I don't understand is how flight time works between the two systems. If firing past the hitscan range, does the bullet arrive at the end of the hitscan distance instantly, and then travel at its velocity from there? Does it wait 0.1 seconds at the end of the hitscan range and then fly? Is the entire flight path modeled in real time if the game thinks the shot will be longer than 0.1 seconds?

I can see any of these solutions causing strange behavior if you're firing at targets close to the transition point.

@MAA_Bunny It sounds like the bullets travel at their relative velocity. After .1 seconds they begin to drop and lose velocity relative to their starting velocity. Thats what i can gather at least

last edited by Turyl

@Sgt-Kanyo The bots definitely need some work. it gets pretty annoying getting instantly picked off at 100m through some tiny crack in a fence

@MAA_Bunny said in Remove hit scan:

If firing past the hitscan range, does the bullet arrive at the end of the hitscan distance instantly, and then travel at its velocity from there? Does it wait 0.1 seconds at the end of the hitscan range and then fly? Is the entire flight path modeled in real time if the game thinks the shot will be longer than 0.1 seconds?

I think it's the last one, which is quite annoying because it creates a huge discrepancy at the distance where the ballistics model kicks in.