Champion Ladder grievance
  • There seriously need to be done something to fix the problem

    If you want to discourage conceeding, you need to fix the way team balancing is done.

    No one wants to play their 4th chaos team in a row rated 300 points above them, while half their team is on the injured reserve.

    And lets be absolutely clear- Nearly half of the active teams in champion ladder are chaos teams.

    Too many players play their race of choice to a good record, then build chaos teams to serve no other purpose other than to put the competition out of action. Literally half of all matches these days involve a chaos team (or their dlc cousins, the nurgle, just as deadly with the 2-8 clawpombers per team). Too many more don't even have a race of choice and just like ruining teams without regard to the ball.

    You guys have really got to put your heads together and find a solution. This is what kept the first iteration of the game from taking off, and its hurting the growth of this one. No one worth anything minds playing a chaos team or two, but when you play 4 in a row, two of who literally ignore the ball if it means killing mroe players, it gets frustrating.

    You combine that with punishing players for conceding, a mechanic added by games workshop to give players a way to keep their teams alive. There is enough punishment built into concessions without taking the strategic option away.

    You can punish DC's without punishing all concedes.

    But really, there needs to be a way to guarantee so many team runs don't end because they get a bad run of the same race over and over. The simplest solution would be to not match a player against the same race he just played. If that means the overpopulated races have longer wait times for games, GOOD! Maybe we'll actually see more variety in the game then!

  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    And lets be absolutely clear- Nearly half of the active teams in champion ladder are chaos teams.

    That's simply not true. While there are generally more bash teams than agi teams the imbalance is nowhere near as bad as you suggest. I don't have up-to-date numbers to hand for this season, but if previous seasons are any indication then 10% is a far more accurate number.

    As for a solution, it's been mentioned before: make the leagues resurrection style. People don't seem to want that though, for some reason.

    You can punish DC's without punishing all concedes.

    No we can't. It's impossible to tell the difference between a disconnection and a concession.

  • Active being the operative word.

    As in searching for a game at any given time, not "sitting in the league but hasn't played a game in a week because the coach is using his chaos team instead"

    "No we can't. It's impossible to tell the difference between a disconnection and a concession."

    You could if the game was programmed to, if you had learned a single thing from previous

    You claim to be able to detect "pausing" (even though no such functions even exist) which tells me the whole root of the issue is that no one has updated a damn thing since the first game, and you've sold a reskin as a sequel.

    The triviality of programming a difference between concedes and dc's is so easy that there is no excuse for it not having happened.

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    Yes, I meant active. I was looking at matches played by each race over the last 10 days of the season.

    "I" am not Cyanide. I'm a volunteer admin for the league. As such I cannot tell the difference between a disconnection and a concession with the data I have to run the league.

  • Want to know how I know you are lying?

    Because 10% would be LESS than expected from the 2 teams. If only 10% of games had those two teams, then the two teams would be played less than any other.

    Meanwhile, the first step to solving the problem would be restricting each coach to one team in the champion ladder, instead of flat you making up statistics to hide the problem.

  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    No, I'm, not lying. You can see the data for yourself on goblinspy. I was talking about Chaos, not Chaos and Nurgle. The bit of your post I quoted and replied to was "Nearly half of the active teams in champion ladder are chaos teams".

    And no, we will not be restricting coaches in any way.

  • Of course you won't

    Because your goal isn't a fair and fun competition, its to make the job as easy as possible.

    The same reason you don't consider exploiting bugs as exploiting, and refuse to punish players for it.

    The same reason you use Goblin spy to make up your statistics, when it is clearly flawed as a measurement, since its SELF SELECTING and the chaos/nurgle teams aren't exactly recording their griefing games.

    The same reason you won't let players use a tactical button added to the game to prevent the chaos/nurgle griefing that is taking over the league.

    Because all of that would take some effort. Easier to just ban the complaints from the forums.

  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    How, exactly, will limiting the amount of play increase the fun for anyone? All that will happen is that fewer people will look for matches, fewer teams will be available, matching will be worse because of it and people will generally be unhappy.

    Goblinspy is not self-selecting. It uses server downloads. It's complete data for the entire league. Your ignorance is on display here. The 10% figure I gave you was also from direct server downloads. For reference, the Chaos+Nurgle figure for the last 10 days of season 7 was 15%.

    http://imgur.com/a/MML99

    If you don't like it then play in COL rather than CCL.

    last edited by dode74
  • Community Manager

    Moving the posts to avoid spamming the Champion rule topic.

    @crazyguy_co I think we get your point. Please note that I'm in charge of the official competitions in BB2. Dode, as well as the other community admins, are incredibly valuable, but they are volunteers and can only work with the tools we give them. And they're doing a great job with that. Thanks to focus on me if you have any grievance about the Cabalvision Official League. And please stay respectful.

  • @Netheos
    You should have seen this coming. Additional to typical online game bashing and whining even as a tabletop game BB makes many of the players feel like every other team is overpowered, every other player has better luck and some strategies are so completely dominant that the whole game is completely unbalanced...

    ...and no matter of how many data proves the opposite you can't argue with that since BB is such a great game when it comes to creating a feeling that there is some kind of huge evil power who wants to see you suffer.

    @crazyguy_co
    I believe you that you are facing CPOMB chaos all the time. I don't. I get kicked my ass by dwarves and orcs, too - and all these elves are running circles around me. Nuffle hates us all. He just has different kinds of hell for any of us.

    If you can't find some humor and fun in this, BB isn't the right game for you.
    "I'll survive CPOMB-CCL - or die trying." That's the spirit of a true BB coach ;).

    last edited by Ioelet
  • @loelet

    I wish I could still pull up my history of my last 3 teams. All three had literally half the games against the two teams mentioned, once you get over 1200 rating. And looking through random teams histories on the elague, it's pretty consistent. there is always one know it all who can't see the difference between pointing out a problem and "whining". If you don't have solutions, but want to just join in the denial of the problem, please just go away. Table top leagues do not suffer this problem, ebcause trolling in table top you actually know the people, and the commisioners care. Try doing endzone fouls in tabletop and see how well that flies. The lack of care is not demonstrated any better than by allowing exploiting of known bugs.

    @dode74
    quantity != quality.

    @Netheos
    The very fact that you took 5 days to get involved is part of the problem... it's really hard to address grievances to an absentee leader, and even more so when your usual response is so vague and short that it doesn't answer anything.

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    quantity != quality.

    True, but if you want real quality then CCL isn't the place to get it, a private scheduled league is. CCL is a halfway house for people who want convenience and competition without being regularly conceded to. It cannot be, and will not try to be, all things.

  • @dode74

    As long as cash prizes are offered, then you can't call it the halfway house. It becomes the semi official tournament, and the rules do not reflect that. Again, the open encouragement of players to exploit bugs alone makes a mockery of the idea of "official" tournaments.

    And lets be clear, buy advertising exactly how the bugs work on the forums, then refusing to do anything about them, you ARE not just allowing them, but encouraging them.

    You can't have your cake and eat it to, you either allow coaches to concede to save their teams, without risking their ability to compete, or you find a solution to the griefing. Anything else is laziness.

    Need more proof of laziness?

    "In-game griefing includes using non-game mechanisms (such as continual use of the pause button) to harass your opponent. It will result in a ban. Again, please report such exploits to the admin team."

    Pause button? the non existant pause button is against the rules? This is proof you all are being so lazy no one has updated the rules since BB1

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    The rules reflect the tournament Focus and Cyanide want to run. If you're not happy with that play elsewhere. And it is a halfway house between quality and quantity, which is nothing to do with cash: you conflate the two things.

    Reference the bugs, it's fair use if everyone knows about it, hence the openness about them. The fact is, though, that there are some which simply cannot be policed. Those are the ones which are left. You may not like that but that is the policy and if you think you can run an open league better then feel free to start one.

    The "pause button" is what many people refer to as the menu screen. It is used to pause the game: hence the terminology.

    The rules were updated from BB1: there were no rules for the official ladders in BB1. These rules were adapted from the FOL rules in BB1.

  • The menu screen doesn't pause the game for the opponent.

    So your rules show that not only are you lazy, but you don't even know the game you claim to be moderating.

    No wonder exploiting bugs is allowed and concedes aren't, the rules are based on pure ignorance! It all makes sense now!

    And once again instead of admitting a problem, you lie to me. That rule is there because you apparently did a direct copy paste of the rules from the FoL, and didn't even bother to check if they needed updating. But somehow you all went with the lazy moderation answer on the "no exploiting" rule which, in the FOL, specifically referred to bugs...

    Don't call on something you are making this open of a mockery of.

    there were no rules for the official ladders in BB1

    There were, about abusing the pause button, specifically, but also about a few other things

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    You can't have your cake and eat it to, you either allow coaches to concede to save their teams, without risking their ability to compete, or you find a solution to the griefing. Anything else is laziness.

    You know what's really lazy and ignorant? The fact that jaywalking is illegal but winter isn't. I mean c'mon, winter is responsible for way, way more damage and loss of life than jaywalking, but they let winter happen every year while handing out tickets for the other thing. Either abolish winter or let me cross the street whenever I damned well please... you can't forbid one but not the other!

    ...or.. I guess they can, and our objection is very low on anyone's give-a-shit list. Excuse me, I need to go cry. If you need to borrow a cry-hankie, let me know cg.

  • yeah the author of bboracle that ruined the first game doesn't get to talk about "fair" without someone pointing it out. Hypocrite much?

    Also I love how you are allowed to just insult cause you agree with the mods, but I have to be "civil"

    Also, given that we have millions of ways we've invented to create buffers against winter, from clearing roads, to heated houses, your analogy sucks... by this logic, the mods should be finding ways to lessen the damage.

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    yeah the author of bboracle that ruined the first game doesn't get to talk about "fair" without someone pointing it out. Hypocrite much?

    Don't worry, sweetums... everyone knows that your problems stem entirely from the universe being out to get you through the lazy and ignorant machinations of the rest of us. Though really, if there's one thing that BBOracle was not, it was lazy ;)

    @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Also I love how you are allowed to just insult cause you agree with the mods, but I have to be "civil"

    I know, right? I'm so complex... in one paragraph I ruined the game, in the next I'm a crusader for the status-quo enjoying special privileges for my unfailing support of the establishment.

    @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Also, given that we have millions of ways we've invented to create buffers against winter, from clearing roads, to heated houses, your analogy sucks... by this logic, the mods should be finding ways to lessen the damage.

    They did find a way to lessen the effects - they said "here's a bug some people use... our houserule is that it's ok to do during qualification matches but not during tournament matches"... because "mods" are not "devs" and have no control over the functioning of the program itself. Each of the people you're sitting there insulting is NOT a BB2 developer and has no ability to fix bugs in the program... so they figure out ways to roll with them.

    Winter is still a bitch, and we still keep trying to think up new ways to deal with it... but it's not within our power to simply do away with it, so whining that it continues to exist is a waste of everyone's time. Spend your time thinking up new usable solutions instead of complaining that other people aren't thinking up new solutions fast enough for your liking.

    If your issue is with the devs then speak to them... stop lashing out at everyone BUT them like some sort of pouty child.

  • Man you really are poison to this community, I thought they were exaggerating

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Man you really are poison to this community, I thought they were exaggerating

    Well hey, at least we're adding a new adjective to the pot... lazy, ignorant, and dishonest were getting a bit worn out. Perhaps if you weren't so hell-bent on attacking everyone you and the nameless "they" would have an easier time making a case for just how terrible I am.. ;)

  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    That point at which you realise someone's username is a far more apt description of them than perhaps even they realise...

    Your "grievance" is noted, crazyguy.

  • Cute @dode74, caught in your third lie, you just get dismissive and insulting.

    GREAT moderation we got here.

    For the record, of the last 50 games on goblins spy at this moment, 23 chaos or nurgle teams are present.

    Tell me again how thats 10%? Want to make up any more statistics?

    It's especially funny how in another thread VoodooMike was complaining about you guys using make believe statistics for decisions, only to accept this make believe statistic without complaint.

    last edited by crazyguy_co
  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    I'm being dismissive because you are being rude and insulting.

    I have not lied and I have no need to lie. You looked at 50 games, which is a tiny sample, then quoted 10% which was my figure for Chaos, not Chaos + Nurgle. At least try to get the facts in this very thread straight.

    In Champion Ladder VII go to Race Wins, filter for Race = Chaos and you'll see they have played 2784 matches. Do the same for Nurgle and it's 2915. So a total of 5699 matches.
    In the League Results page you can see there were 16868 rows, which is matches, and there are two teams per match, so 33736 teams played matches.
    5699 out of 33736 is 0.1689 = 16.89% for Chaos plus Nurgle.
    Chaos alone is 8.25% (less than the 10% I quoted), and Nurgle is 8.64%.

    Now, I don't quote this because I think you will actually go look, but because it means anyone who is following the thread (God help them!) can tell which of us is lying. Hint: it's not me.

    As for VoodooMike, I don't think he's accused me of using make-believe statistics, and I know he won't gainsay these ones because he can (and may well) check them himself and find them to be correct.

    So, "grievances" noted, as I said.

  • @dode74 said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    In Champion Ladder VII go to Race Wins, filter for Race = Chaos and you'll see they have played 2784 matches. Do the same for Nurgle and it's 2915. So a total of 5699 matches.

    What you also see is that Chaos won only 46% of their matches - Nurgle 47% (with draws counted as "half wins"); for me this means they a bad choice to play with and give me an advantage to play against.

    Yes, you can say "Winning is not worth it, if CPOMBs kill your team" but I would say "Surviving is not worth it, if I don't win my games".

    So, the real problem is all those ag4 elves who don't take a fair fight but take the ball and score. Seriously it's totally unfair and you play against those at least in ... 90% of every game. Every other number is a lie!!11!!1!
    ;)

  • @dode74 said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    I'm being dismissive because you are being rude and insulting.

    I have not lied and I have no need to lie. You looked at 50 games, which is a tiny sample, then quoted 10% which was my figure for Chaos, not Chaos + Nurgle. At least try to get the facts in this very thread straight.

    In Champion Ladder VII go to Race Wins, filter for Race = Chaos and you'll see they have played 2784 matches. Do the same for Nurgle and it's 2915. So a total of 5699 matches.
    In the League Results page you can see there were 16868 rows, which is matches, and there are two teams per match, so 33736 teams played matches.
    5699 out of 33736 is 0.1689 = 16.89% for Chaos plus Nurgle.
    Chaos alone is 8.25% (less than the 10% I quoted), and Nurgle is 8.64%.

    Now, I don't quote this because I think you will actually go look, but because it means anyone who is following the thread (God help them!) can tell which of us is lying. Hint: it's not me.

    As for VoodooMike, I don't think he's accused me of using make-believe statistics, and I know he won't gainsay these ones because he can (and may well) check them himself and find them to be correct.

    So, "grievances" noted, as I said.

    Yes, whole season means you didn't bother to understand the problem.

    The first week of each season is ok, maybe even first 2.

    But then a lot of players get there teams to decent values and make those teams... and use them to flat out squash the competition. so the last 3-4 weeks of seasons are just hell, you can't start news teams, really, because you will get decimated by those teams set up to squash competition..

    So the stats still show the teams overrepresented, but If you look at the last half, you'll see a much more massive imbalance.

    TV+ matchups, which I pray you guys never listen to Voodoomike and implement, would make the problem even worse. Those chaos kill squads that lose because they just want to kill? they'd get matched against increasingly lower and lwoer tv teams as they lost, able to cause more and more damage. So at the very least it'd be good to know no one is listening to his retarded idea about how to fix matchmaking by actually making it worse,

    And don't claim you didn't lie, you got caught bald faced lying about why the line about non existant pauses was in the rules.

  • BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

    but If you look at the last half, you'll see a much more massive imbalance.

    Again, you don't. Download the data from GoblinSpy (which, contrary to your earlier assertion, is all of the data) and look for yourself. I even posted the chart which shows it's fairly even across the season.

    TV+ matchups, which I pray you guys never listen to Voodoomike and implement, would make the problem even worse.

    Which shows how much you know. TV+ has been implemented since season 1 and has been shown to be pretty good at producing better matchups.

    Here are the rules from FOL. Feel free to point out where the pause button is mentioned, please - in fact, please find the rule about not using the pause button in BB1 anywhere. Now, it's possible that made it into the BB2 rules in error, but it most certainly wasn't due to a failure to update the rules from BB1. There is, in fact, a 5-page thread where the admin team discussed how to update the rules on the old forums. You'll note there are plenty of other changes, too.

    last edited by dode74
  • Interesting read guys, but I feel like this is an issue of if you don't like it play elsewhere, there are plenty of private leagues around where you can play and not have face the challenges that playing in a public league present, but you choose to play in champs.

  • @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Tell me again how thats 10%? Want to make up any more statistics?

    You're the one making up statistics - you either base your "numbers" on generalizing from your personal anecdotes, or you pick tiny samples... and you're holding them up against numbers from the complete data which is tens of thousands of matches per season.

    @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    It's especially funny how in another thread VoodooMike was complaining about you guys using make believe statistics for decisions, only to accept this make believe statistic without complaint.

    You're not much for reading comprehension. I never accused them of making up statistics, I scoffed at the insinuation that BB2 development decisions were data-driven. If you don't understand the difference then maybe you should stick to the random insults.

    @crazyguy_co said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    TV+ matchups, which I pray you guys never listen to Voodoomike and implement, would make the problem even worse. Those chaos kill squads that lose because they just want to kill? they'd get matched against increasingly lower and lwoer tv teams as they lost, able to cause more and more damage. So at the very least it'd be good to know no one is listening to his retarded idea about how to fix matchmaking by actually making it worse,

    Heh, TVPlus matchmaking has been in place since May 2016. Plenty of time for us to collect data on its effect, and the effect has been less biased matches, lower rates of concession, and lower TV differences for new teams. If you mean "full TVPlus" which has not been implemented well... that's rez based so theres not much effect that "killer teams" could have.

    @dode74 said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Feel free to point out where the pause button is mentioned, please - in fact, please find the rule about not using the pause button in BB1 anywhere. Now, it's possible that made it into the BB2 rules in error, but it most certainly wasn't due to a failure to update the rules from BB1.

    It's most likely that it was simply the only example anyone could think of from the history of Cyanide's BB franchise. If you don't give people an example they tend to invent things and launch these grievance campaigns over things they've simply decided to be true.

  • @Tizzle-Bizzell said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Interesting read guys, but I feel like this is an issue of if you don't like it play elsewhere, there are plenty of private leagues around where you can play and not have face the challenges that playing in a public league present, but you choose to play in champs.

    +1 to that:
    I dominated the private league I played in, in BB1 with lizards - but after a few wins in BB2-CCL the match maker started to match me against teams of some of the best coaches and I had a number of losses that I was not used to. I also got my team beaten up by orcs, dwarves, chaos and nurgle harder than I had seen it since my tabletop starts with wood elves about 10-15 years ago.
    But what the hell did I expect? Getting matched against elves coached by newbs all the time? This is an open championship - THE open championship. Fight whatever you face and try to become a better coach or go join a private league with whatever special rules you like.

    I know those all-bashing coaches who could not even play a decent ball-handling strategy if you tied the ball to their players' hands but instead take every possible block they see. But those Top 20 coaches I faced in CCL hurt my team + won the games whereas those 'don't care about winning' coaches most of the time not only mean an easy win but most often also are much easier to handle in the bashing game if you know your basic tactics with your own squishy agility team.

    @crazyguy_co Maybe there even is some statistical bias where in specific times for specific TVs you face significantly more bashing teams than everyone else. You have the data available. Look for that, show it to us. Up until then, all I hear is "booooh, fake news!" complaints and conspiracy theories without any evidence.

    last edited by Ioelet
  • @Ioelet said in Champion Ladder grievance:

    Maybe there even is some statistical bias where in specific times for specific TVs you face significantly more bashing teams than everyone else

    In COL there will be at higher TV levels... in CCL it is primarily a question of when you play during a season. Early on people are fielding new teams and are mostly playing hard to win as part of the qualification process... those teams are interested in winning, developing, and avoiding excessive damage so they aren't as likely to get into a dust-up just for the sake of bashing.

    Later in the season activity decreases as the best teams are already in the top ranked positions and don't have any reason to play more games and risk any damage... other teams know they arent going to qualify and either stop playing or start playing more casually. You may see more bash teams looking to just bash but its more a factor of the pools being smaller that you wind up playing against them.

    In CCL if you're a high performing coach playing a high performing roster you're much less likely to face bash in early to mid season play simply because bash rosters are lower performing rosters... TVPlus is most likely to pair the high performers with one another when possible. At the end of the day, though, its pool sizes that prevent matchmaking from making perfect matches.

  • 40
    Posts
  • 1020
    Views
  • Log in to reply
  • Looks like your connection to Champion Ladder grievance was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.