The mistake of necrons/tyranids

This isn't really the fault of Tindalos, but rather games workshop. Even though Necrons and Tyranids are playable 'armies' in 40k and battlefleet gothic. I really think because of their background, Necrons and Tyranids should have been 'set piece' type of ships in BFG instead of being somewhat fleshed out fleets for players to build.

I dunno, maybe you all will develope some scenarios that reflect this, but really with how overwhelming Tyranid numbers can be, or overpowered necron technology is, it makes more sense to have their 'ships' exist as a set piece NPC type of thing that you deal with during your battle, or its a scenario battle designed completely around trying to win a no-win situation, or run away from a no-win situation, etc.

Ever heard of tyranid splinter fleets? Don't be so closed minded bud. Instead of focusing on why you think it's not possible, figure out ways it is possible.

@bellumvinco said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

Ever heard of tyranid splinter fleets? Don't be so closed minded bud. Instead of focusing on why you think it's not possible, figure out ways it is possible.

Even the designers say they are imbalanced.... you say that as if his argument is illogical.

😡
dont stand between me and the ability to nom
nids are a playable faction
just like they should be

@banjojohn said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

This isn't really the fault of Tindalos, but rather games workshop. Even though Necrons and Tyranids are playable 'armies' in 40k and battlefleet gothic. I really think because of their background, Necrons and Tyranids should have been 'set piece' type of ships in BFG instead of being somewhat fleshed out fleets for players to build.

I dunno, maybe you all will develope some scenarios that reflect this, but really with how overwhelming Tyranid numbers can be, or overpowered necron technology is, it makes more sense to have their 'ships' exist as a set piece NPC type of thing that you deal with during your battle, or its a scenario battle designed completely around trying to win a no-win situation, or run away from a no-win situation, etc.

No, the mistake would have been enraging the Tyranid and Necron players by doing that after they already never got DLC for Armada 1 despite polls clearly demonstrating massive interest in it.

That's a pretty slippery slope though, isn't it?

Necrons are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Tyranids are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Adeptus Mechanicus are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Tau are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Space Marines are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Chaos are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Orks are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Imperium are overpowered, get rid of them.
And now we're all stuck playing with Eldar.

This is 40K.
If it isn't over powered, it's not going to last long.

Is it too much to ask for Necrons to be a faction in a game without someone asking for their removal/prevention? I just want my story mode crons damnit, I don’t need a repeat of EC’s 600 threads about how Necrons should be NPCs only!

@nemesor-xanxas said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

Is it too much to ask for Necrons to be a faction in a game without someone asking for their removal/prevention? I just want my story mode crons damnit, I don’t need a repeat of EC’s 600 threads about how Necrons should be NPCs only!

Pretty much this 1000%. If every faction were true to lore, the Eldar would be almost as overpowered. To quote Lord Admiral Ravensburg the character, not dev "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring the Eldar to battle."

Do I want the Necrons to be balanced as much as is reasonable for it, hell yeah. I love my Necrons, but (for example) even I know that the TT/Lore ability for Necron Lightning Batteries to flat out ignore the Eldar's defences is overpowered, to the point where no Eldar player would willingly face a Necron fleet. But to advocate their removal or force them to 'just being an NPC' is just being a complete dick to the many people who do play those races.

Tyranids for example were relatively balanced for the tabletop just fine. Despite the fact if the TT were true to lore, the Tyranid player should have hundreds to thousands to literally millions of ships or even in the most extreme Hive Fleet's cases, BILLIONS.

@bellumvinco said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

Ever heard of tyranid splinter fleets? Don't be so closed minded bud. Instead of focusing on why you think it's not possible, figure out ways it is possible.

Yeah, I have the 3rd edition tyranid codex, I know about spliter fleets. I'm not being closed minded.

Having necrons and tyranids as fleets would be like playing a star trek game and having one person play the federation and letting the other person plop down 2-3 giant planet eating ships. Sure you could try and 'balance' the planet eaters so that they could not be overwhelmingly powerful compared to a fleet of 10 ships, but its silly to do so. They should be overpowered, an obsticle to fail against time and time again and only win against sometimes.

A squad of 3 necron light cruisers should launch from a planet in the battlefield of a BFG game, and then blast their way through whatever ships are in their way as they make their way out.

A tyranid fleet is slowed down on its way to consume, there is no winning, not when so much other stuff is going on.

None of this "being a dick to people who play these fleets" would even be a problem if the mistake of making them fleets to begin with wasn't made. BFG is a mutant who has grown a second thumb on its hands, and those thumbs are the necron and tyranid fleets. Cutting them off to make things balanced and normal again would make things right, people who play these fleets shouldn't feel punished, they should feel glad they even got to play after such mistakes were made.

@banjojohn By that logic the Tau should be removed from the game, as to this day their navy is awful. 12 imperial ships solo’d The entire Tau navy at Damocles and they still haven’t been able to make a cruiser capable of matching the lowly lunar (which they refer to as a “terror”) to say nothing of their battleships. They are far to weak and small to be in BFG lorewise and get hear they are.

@banjojohn said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

@bellumvinco said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

Ever heard of tyranid splinter fleets? Don't be so closed minded bud. Instead of focusing on why you think it's not possible, figure out ways it is possible.

Yeah, I have the 3rd edition tyranid codex, I know about spliter fleets. I'm not being closed minded.

Having necrons and tyranids as fleets would be like playing a star trek game and having one person play the federation and letting the other person plop down 2-3 giant planet eating ships. Sure you could try and 'balance' the planet eaters so that they could not be overwhelmingly powerful compared to a fleet of 10 ships, but its silly to do so. They should be overpowered, an obsticle to fail against time and time again and only win against sometimes.

A squad of 3 necron light cruisers should launch from a planet in the battlefield of a BFG game, and then blast their way through whatever ships are in their way as they make their way out.

A tyranid fleet is slowed down on its way to consume, there is no winning, not when so much other stuff is going on.

You arguments are fundamentally flawed. Literally flawed on a fundamental level. On both a gameplay perspective and a lore one.

Having Necrons and Nids is absolutely nothing like having a Trek game and playing as said.

A : The Planet Killer in Star Trek is killable by a single outdated Federation ship firing a torpedo down it's throat.

B : Tyranid ships are "pound for pound" the weakest ships in 40k. On the tabletop they are actually MORE powerful than in the Lore. In the lore Hive Fleets of THOUSANDS of Hive Ships (not counting escorts) have been defeated by significantly smaller Imperial fleets. Why are Tyranids powerful in the lore? Because their fleets are thousands to millions and in rarer cases even billions of ships.

C : A Squad of 3 Necron Light Cruisers is NOT that powerful. They're very powerful, but they're not "blast their way through anything" powerful. (They are "outrun anything they can't blast powerful though.)

As @Nemesor-Xanxas has pointed out, using your terrible logic the Tau should be removed from the game entirely, because you can't win with them.

@banjojohn said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

None of this "being a dick to people who play these fleets" would even be a problem if the mistake of making them fleets to begin with wasn't made. BFG is a mutant who has grown a second thumb on its hands, and those thumbs are the necron and tyranid fleets. Cutting them off to make things balanced and normal again would make things right, people who play these fleets shouldn't feel punished, they should feel glad they even got to play after such mistakes were made.

Yes. It IS being a dick to people who play those fleets. Making them was never a mistake. Your attitude is in fact very reminiscent of the adolescent behaviour that "the Tau should never have been included because they're a tiny power that should have been destroyed!" After all, the Damocles crusade was categorised by the Imperial version of a hunting expedition (about a dozen capital ships) absolutely stomping the Tau all the way back to Vior'la before.. drumroll

The Tyranids distracted the Imperium. In fact. Your absurdity here is VERY reminiscent of GW's attitude when it got rid of the Squats. And that is STILL being discussed. Or how GW removes models from Codices making players angry that the product they bought has been invalidated.

How would you feel if tomorrow your Car manufacturer came around and took the wheels off of your car declaring that Wheels were too overpowered. But no, you should be happy you got to drive a car with wheels at all!

Here it is in bold letters.

Tyranid and Necron fleets were not mistakes. And anyone who thinks they are should f**k off and find another hobby, like teabagging people in CoD where their attitude belongs.

@romeo said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

That's a pretty slippery slope though, isn't it?

Necrons are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Tyranids are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Adeptus Mechanicus are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Tau are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Space Marines are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Chaos are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Orks are overpowered, get rid of them.
Now Imperium are overpowered, get rid of them.
And now we're all stuck playing with Eldar.

Nids and necrons will no doubt be the OP races to play for the first few weeks. Hope it doesnt kill the multiplayer.

Im kind of worried cause eventhough tindalos removed a huge chunk of the balancing problems by restricting costumization (which is a good thing for pvp) they added 6 more races to their plate. Chaos and imperial balance is fairly stable

But all the other races were kind of shoddy and gimmicky.

Orks jumped from 1 cheeze build to the next to even have a chance at winning.

Eldar had alot of broken stuff for the longest time and i dont think they were designed that well in the first place and are wierd to play. I feel like 2D gameplay does not suit them.

Space marines could only really play 1 way only and that was heavy boarding spam. Pretty boring. Anything else was fairly unviable for tgem because their armor did not mean much because of AP macro shells etc etc.

Tau i dont have any experience with but the word is that they are idiot proof.

I think banjos main worry is that nids and necrons are going to break the game at day 1. Which it will. The first game was a balance nightmare and this was only with 6 fleets. I think tindalos learned from there mistakes and i can see they are reworking a huge chunk of the game so only time will tell if their design decisions will be better this time around or worse.

@canned_f3tus said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

I think banjos main worry is that nids and necrons are going to break the game at day 1. Which it will. The first game was a balance nightmare and this was only with 6 fleets. I think tindalos learned from there mistakes and i can see they are reworking a huge chunk of the game so only time will tell if their design decisions will be better this time around or worse.

I don't think it will. Look at the promo stuff we've seen so far. Not counting pre-rendered trailers, we have shots of the Phalanx, and a lot of shots of Necrons and Tyranids.

I suspect, personally, that they got the first areas of focus and concentration because they have the greatest potential to be completely broken. And half of the Necron's balance is easily brought back (in regards to Eldar) by simply removing the "ignores holofields" of its Lightning Batteries.

@kadaeux said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

@canned_f3tus said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

I think banjos main worry is that nids and necrons are going to break the game at day 1. Which it will. The first game was a balance nightmare and this was only with 6 fleets. I think tindalos learned from there mistakes and i can see they are reworking a huge chunk of the game so only time will tell if their design decisions will be better this time around or worse.

I don't think it will. Look at the promo stuff we've seen so far. Not counting pre-rendered trailers, we have shots of the Phalanx, and a lot of shots of Necrons and Tyranids.

I suspect, personally, that they got the first areas of focus and concentration because they have the greatest potential to be completely broken. And half of the Necron's balance is easily brought back (in regards to Eldar) by simply removing the "ignores holofields" of its Lightning Batteries.

Yeah you probably are right.

Tindaloses balance strategy for necs at first will be Necrons low numbers

And as you mentioned in other post nids are gonna probably rely alot on boarding and winning through attrition.

@canned_f3tus said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

@kadaeux said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

@canned_f3tus said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

I think banjos main worry is that nids and necrons are going to break the game at day 1. Which it will. The first game was a balance nightmare and this was only with 6 fleets. I think tindalos learned from there mistakes and i can see they are reworking a huge chunk of the game so only time will tell if their design decisions will be better this time around or worse.

I don't think it will. Look at the promo stuff we've seen so far. Not counting pre-rendered trailers, we have shots of the Phalanx, and a lot of shots of Necrons and Tyranids.

I suspect, personally, that they got the first areas of focus and concentration because they have the greatest potential to be completely broken. And half of the Necron's balance is easily brought back (in regards to Eldar) by simply removing the "ignores holofields" of its Lightning Batteries.

Yeah you probably are right.

Tindaloses balance strategy for necs at first will be Necrons low numbers

And as you mentioned in other post nids are gonna probably rely alot on boarding and winning through attrition.

You've no doubt noticed i'm pretty knowledgeable and generally a stickler for the law. But i'm willing to sacrifice it for game balance. And from what little we've seen and what Tindalos has said, game balance is a pretty big goal.

But, while being honest.

Players have this innate ability to minmax/cheese stuff the devs never expect. So it may not be balanced at the start there is a chance.

@banjojohn said in The mistake of necrons/tyranids:

This isn't really the fault of Tindalos, but rather games workshop. Even though Necrons and Tyranids are playable 'armies' in 40k and battlefleet gothic. I really think because of their background, Necrons and Tyranids should have been 'set piece' type of ships in BFG instead of being somewhat fleshed out fleets for players to build.

I dunno, maybe you all will develope some scenarios that reflect this, but really with how overwhelming Tyranid numbers can be, or overpowered necron technology is, it makes more sense to have their 'ships' exist as a set piece NPC type of thing that you deal with during your battle, or its a scenario battle designed completely around trying to win a no-win situation, or run away from a no-win situation, etc.

Don't let us catch you playing with the Tyranids or Necrons! 😎

@banjojohn As if neither of those fleets have never been defeated.

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