Fleet of the Machine God

Personally, I wonder how Adeptus Mechanicus will differ from the Imperial Navy fleet. Both fleets use ships of the same calls more or less. The design is different but a Dictator is a Dictator with a lance turret and a Tyrant is a Tyrant a lance turret. So I really interested how it will come out. In tabletop, AM has some special rules but I don't know if it is so easily transferable to the game and it could unnecessarily complicate the game.

The first thing we have to take into account is that Battlefleet Gotic is a very old game and it's not supported by a long time too. This time was the darkest time of "Grim Dark" in the wh40k too, to excess. So I would not take everything in these books for the only existing truth. On the contrary, much has been changed for better or worst but it has and we should be critical.

There are some things that I do not like and that does not make sense in my opinion according to this fleet in tabletop. Such things as that AM ships do not use assault boats or there is easier to board them because techpriest and servitors can't fight well. This is not logical in my opinion. The vessels are holy relics for them and they would defend them fanatically if they have the means, and they have, skitarii needs much less living space then standard humans and their augmentation can make them more adapted to fighting on the ship decks. Such Sicarian Infiltrators could be deadly in the boarding action. Another thing is that those ships are not touristic liners, they use them to explore the unknown regions of the galaxy and this is a hazardous thing to do. It means fighting sometimes and if they encounter some shim that is of particular interest to them they will not board it because they have not assault crafts because techprist and servitors are poor fighters?

Another thing that I do not like is lack of battlecruisers in this fleet "To avoid raising the concern of the Imperial Navy". What a crap. If the Adeptus Mechanicus cared about what Imperial Navy thinks in the first place. Adeptus Mechanicus is the most autonomous part of the Imperium, They have the second army in size third size fleet, not to mention monopoly on producing ships and most powerful weapons, they do what they want and rarely you can convince them to do not. People forget about it, even the black library writers. In the new book Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah there is an Inquisitor that claims his authority is absolute and even the Fabricator General of Mars has to bow before him because he will swing his sigil. What a crap! Any fabricator would kill him with laughter. Adeptus Mechanicus can bow before inquisition only if they have something to support "their absolute authority" and swinging Inquisitorial rosette right and left is no such thing.

On the other hand, there is plenty to do with the upgrades because we have much more information about Adeptus Mechanicus now.

We know about some Forge Worlds and their specializations, there are plenty of sects and organization within Adeptus Mechanicus, and new weapons too. I don't know if the favor system is still actual and how upgrades will look like but it should not be a problem for this fleet.

The last thing I will touch here is the source of information. As I have said before the original informations are quite outdated so it should not be rely on. There are official publications in form of codexes a this is the most trustworthy source, unfortunately, a more informative source than descriptive. There are Black Library books too. But here we have to be careful because there is a lot of weird things there like this Inquisitor swinging High Lords of Tere into submission with his almighty rosette. Worrisome there are a lot of people who things that book Mechanikum is some sort the best Mechanicum/Mechanicus book there is. In my humble opinion, it is a very poor book with do not explain a thing and is in many places simply stupid. If someone will have a good book on the topic so I recommend Skitarius and Tech-priest. Those books are entertaining and informative, there is not much stupid thing there, we have even some fleet actions there too.

last edited by Grey Seer

about boarding it might be relevant that a lot of their skitia... troops are in a form of hibernation to preserve power
they have more troops and are good at repelling boarders but would be slower to respond to boardings because a lot of the ship is only occupied with servitors that cant report things like getting murderfucked by invading noisemarines
especially invasions by stealth raids like dark eldar would be effective vs them

so higher troop count lower defense? would be my guess on how you could implement it

also a lot of their troops are combat servitors that are only useful supporting some kind of leader or defending a known position
their actual think capable skit... troops are an elite force
this might explain the lack of assault boats
combat servitors wouldnt be much use in them and investing skits (im not bothering anymore) is a bad investment strategy
mechanicus bombers should be better anyway

again, not sure, but a possible explanation? im not caliger, im not an expert

mechanicus is powerful but needs the imperium
the imperium and mechanicus are symbiotes of each other
the mechanicus will often bow to inquisitors because if someone can find out they didnt its a political hellhole
fabricator general of mars is probably out of reach tho, no info gets of of mars without the mechanicus approving but on other planets they do need to be careful
why they wouldnt use battlecruisers i have no idea tho

imperial navy with better lances would be an option to distinguish them
alongside weapons that would fall outside the lance/macro category
necrons will have weapons that fall outside those so mechanicus can also have some alongside good sensors probably
just an idea

and 40k info is always vague
and outdated info is still correct according to GW
atleast that is how every discussion eventually ends 😛

@ashardalon said in Fleet of the Machine God:

about boarding it might be relevant that a lot of their skitia... troops are in a form of hibernation to preserve power

This is spot on, most times we see Mechanicus vessels most troops it carries are kept in stasis.

they have more troops and are good at repelling boarders but would be slower to respond to boardings because a lot of the ship is only occupied with servitors that cant report things like getting murderfucked by invading noisemarines
especially invasions by stealth raids like dark eldar would be effective vs them

so higher troop count lower defense? would be my guess on how you could implement it

I'd go with that myself, though with different reasoning. Adeptus Mechanicus ships are not warships, though they are perfectly capable as such. Their primary function is mobile factories and laboratories. They're full of all sorts of stuff that can have catastrophic effects if damaged.

also a lot of their troops are combat servitors that are only useful supporting some kind of leader or defending a known position
their actual think capable skit... troops are an elite force
this might explain the lack of assault boats
combat servitors wouldnt be much use in them and investing skits (im not bothering anymore) is a bad investment strategy
mechanicus bombers should be better anyway

Skitarii are their standard troops, you might be thinking Praetorians. But at the same time, carrying them is far from a standard. But personally i'd explain the lack of Assault Boats being that the AdMech simply doesn't care to bother with them when it can simply use a teleportarium to shuffle troops around. Hell, the Speranza had several teleportariums for moving things within the ship.

mechanicus is powerful but needs the imperium
the imperium and mechanicus are symbiotes of each other
the mechanicus will often bow to inquisitors because if someone can find out they didnt its a political hellhole
fabricator general of mars is probably out of reach tho, no info gets of of mars without the mechanicus approving but on other planets they do need to be careful
why they wouldnt use battlecruisers i have no idea tho

Most Tech Priests tend to ignore inquisitors, some authors forget that. Hell, canonically speaking, both the Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astartes of any rank can tell Inquisitors to go fly a kite. "legally" speaking, the Inquisition has no authority over them that they do not willingly give an Inquisitor. (But they tend to co-operate when such is convenient anyway. While they can tell an Inquisitor to shove his head up his own ass to look for heresy there, that doesn't mean the Inquisitor can't make trouble over it.)

As for Battlecruisers, hard to say. The Mechanicus seems content to requisition Navy assets to help Explorator fleets. Going back to the Speranza, it had 2 Mechanicus modified Gothic Class Cruisers, 3 Voss pattern ships and the Retribution Class Battleship Cardinal Boras join it on its expedition to the Halo Scar. (And a whole lot of Mechanicus support ships, a Rogue Trader and an Astartes Strike Cruiser)

imperial navy with better lances would be an option to distinguish them
alongside weapons that would fall outside the lance/macro category

A common theme i've noticed is the use of Nova Cannons instead of Torpedo batteries. But even just an energy weapon heavy load would help distinguish them. Instead of regular Macrobatteries they use Plasma Macrobatteries. I'd suggest some funky AdMech tech, but unfortunately it's well documented that they use Macrobatteries and Lances.

But the TT version, each AdMech ship had refits. One refit might increase weapon ranges, at the cost of engine power, or add a third void shield in exchange for reduced firepower etc. I'll post the AdMech refit table tomorrow maybe.

and 40k info is always vague
and outdated info is still correct according to GW
atleast that is how every discussion eventually ends 😛

Pretty much. But even more so with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Seeing their ships is super-rare in the novels. But too few novels cover them anyway 😞

@grey-seer said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Personally, I wonder how Adeptus Mechanicus will differ from the Imperial Navy fleet. Both fleets use ships of the same calls more or less. The design is different but a Dictator is a Dictator with a lance turret and a Tyrant is a Tyrant a lance turret. So I really interested how it will come out. In tabletop, AM has some special rules but I don't know if it is so easily transferable to the game and it could unnecessarily complicate the game.

Honestly. That is the biggest question, because except for the Ark Mechanicus every AdMech ship was "pick an Imperial Navy ship, slap some refits on it". Though being fair, that makes sense. The tech base is the same, the manufacturers are literally the same. Just the AdMech shoves some shiny baubles in theirs.

The first thing we have to take into account is that Battlefleet Gotic is a very old game and it's not supported by a long time too. This time was the darkest time of "Grim Dark" in the wh40k too, to excess. So I would not take everything in these books for the only existing truth. On the contrary, much has been changed for better or worst but it has and we should be critical.

Do you mean BFG was the darkest? Or Gathering Storm? If the latter, Gathering Storm is by far the darkest period in 40k.

There are some things that I do not like and that does not make sense in my opinion according to this fleet in tabletop. Such things as that AM ships do not use assault boats or there is easier to board them because techpriest and servitors can't fight well. This is not logical in my opinion. The vessels are holy relics for them and they would defend them fanatically if they have the means, and they have, skitarii needs much less living space then standard humans and their augmentation can make them more adapted to fighting on the ship decks. Such Sicarian Infiltrators could be deadly in the boarding action. Another thing is that those ships are not touristic liners, they use them to explore the unknown regions of the galaxy and this is a hazardous thing to do. It means fighting sometimes and if they encounter some shim that is of particular interest to them they will not board it because they have not assault crafts because techprist and servitors are poor fighters?

From all we've ever seen they don't use Assault Boats. And really there is no reason for them to. The AdMech is much more likely to just engage in teleport assaults and use the room freed up from Assault Boats for extra fighters or bombers. (But I will also point out, that in Vanilla BFG only the Emperor Class Battleship could even equip Sharks, and you had to pay a premium to do so)

As for the vulnerability to boarding. I'd say that is less because of poor capability and more because, AdMech ships are factories, laboratories etc first, warships second. There is a LOT to break, and a lot to break that could have cascading faults. Imagine for a second what would happen if a poor Factorium ship manufacturing vortex grenades got boarded in that lab! 😛

Another thing that I do not like is lack of battlecruisers in this fleet "To avoid raising the concern of the Imperial Navy". What a crap. If the Adeptus Mechanicus cared about what Imperial Navy thinks in the first place. Adeptus Mechanicus is the most autonomous part of the Imperium, They have the second army in size third size fleet, not to mention monopoly on producing ships and most powerful weapons, they do what they want and rarely you can convince them to do not. People forget about it, even the black library writers. In the new book Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah there is an Inquisitor that claims his authority is absolute and even the Fabricator General of Mars has to bow before him because he will swing his sigil. What a crap! Any fabricator would kill him with laughter. Adeptus Mechanicus can bow before inquisition only if they have something to support "their absolute authority" and swinging Inquisitorial rosette right and left is no such thing.

Unless you're counting the Imperium's merchant fleet, the Mechanicus has the 2nd for fleet size. The Astartes represent a very tiny fraction of space assets available (12-24 thousand ships maybe.) to the Imperium, the Ministorum doesn't have a fleet and isn't allowed one after the Goge Vandire incident.

On the other hand, there is plenty to do with the upgrades because we have much more information about Adeptus Mechanicus now.

We know about some Forge Worlds and their specializations, there are plenty of sects and organization within Adeptus Mechanicus, and new weapons too. I don't know if the favor system is still actual and how upgrades will look like but it should not be a problem for this fleet.

I don't think they're going to add new weapons. Maybe modify weapon batteries to reflect the AdMech's higher tech base, but I'm not expecting to see things like capital scale Volkites, or the Speranza's Temporal Black Hole Cannon.

The last thing I will touch here is the source of information. As I have said before the original informations are quite outdated so it should not be rely on. There are official publications in form of codexes a this is the most trustworthy source, unfortunately, a more informative source than descriptive. There are Black Library books too. But here we have to be careful because there is a lot of weird things there like this Inquisitor swinging High Lords of Tere into submission with his almighty rosette. Worrisome there are a lot of people who things that book Mechanikum is some sort the best Mechanicum/Mechanicus book there is. In my humble opinion, it is a very poor book with do not explain a thing and is in many places simply stupid. If someone will have a good book on the topic so I recommend Skitarius and Tech-priest. Those books are entertaining and informative, there is not much stupid thing there, we have even some fleet actions there too.

No, the codexes are by far not the most trustworthy source. Mechanicum is very good, but suffers from being a Horus Heresy novel and thus is caught up in some of the silliness that abounds there. (But also does not cover jack all to do with the Mechanicum's navy.) In addition to Skitarius and Tech-Priest, Titanicus is another good one. But ultimately we really don't have a lot to go on for the Mechanicum's fleet except for the Battlefleet Gothic material. Unlike other things, 40k information doesn't go out of date. So the BFG Mechanicus stuff is as relevant now as it was then.

hoping to see a version of the matryoshka ark from the soul drinker novels 😛 would be interesting

The following is my take on the faction, following the format of the first game.

Although stats like hp, speed and damage per shot are likely to stay the same: the addition of a lance turret on the Adeptus Mechanicus Cruiser adds much more tactical flexibility and damage output. This exaggerated by the fact their weapons should fire faster, as they have the best coolant systems in the Imperium and access to auto-loaders for their macro weapons.
Adeptus Mechanicus ships should also be more accurate, although this could just translate into more range, so 9K heavy Macro batteries and lances, 15K higher tier weapon range. To compensate the individual ships should be more expensive.

Adeptus Mechanicus ships should be far more vulnerable to enemy boarding actions though, as their defences are practically useless without a constant data-tether link and many wont activate quick enough for boarding experts. So low crew health and low crew defence.
Although a Skitarii assault should be very damaging, as they have Space Marine shooting and fighting abilities and have weapons almost as good as bolters (although they lack power armour so are much more squishy) so maybe make Skitarii Legionnaires an upgrade for potentially so that an aggressive boarding action would do a lot of damage even if they cant take them back.

For potential upgrades:

Skitarii Legionaries: After performing a successful boarding action, deal 1 additional critical damage.
Like other boarding buffs, but buffs crits instead of number of boarding actions, so doesn't hit as often but hits harder.

Emergency Energy Reserves: If a component is damaged on your ship, but not destroyed, it may continue to function with 50% slower reload/longer cool-down.
Like Belt-armour, but instead of just negating a crit it allows damaged modals to keep working at a nerfed rate. But destroyed stuff is still just destroyed, so if you get unlucky this will do nothing for you.

Advanced Engines: Emergency turns and all ahead full drain 25% less from your fuel reserves.
Just lets you move around with your manoeuvres more, but wont help you much if you're trying to be stealthy against another stealthy build.

Repulsor Shield: If your ships shield is up, negate all damage from asteroids and reduce ramming damage by 50%.
Rolling together polarisation field of the Eldar with a defensive version of the IN Power Ram, but will only work if your shield is up, so there are plenty of ways to counter it despite it sort of being two upgrades in one.

Fleet Defence Turrets: Increase all turrets' range by 3K.
Simple, but very powerful against ordnance.

Augmented Weapon Arrays: Each time a weapon scores a critical hit, double it.
So you damage or destroy two moduals with each crit. Pushing the AdMech being shootier and more expensive than IN really hard. Might just change this to a crit modifier.

The rest of the upgrades will be shared with the Imperial Navy more or less.

For Skills:

Skitarii Lightning Strike: After a successful Lightning Strike, the target sufferes 1 additional critical damage.
Just like other Boarding buffs really, only instead of giving more chances it just increases the number of crits, so its harder to pull off but hurts when it does.

Neotronium Shell (Nova Cannon only): Allows the equiped ship to choose between two weapon profiles for its Prow Nova Cannon. The standard Plasma Shell or the Neotronium shell. The Neotronium shell does more damage in a smaller area than the Plasma Shell.
Feeling Lucky? If this hits, it will cripple cruisers in a single hit, but its a big if.

Vortex Torpedo (Torpedoes only): Allows the Equipped ship to either fire a spread of normal torpedoes or a single Vortex torpedo. If the Vortex Torpedo hits, it deals 400 true damage to the targets in a wide area.
Easy to dodge, but boy do you want to dodge it.

The rest should be similar to the IN skills.

For Favours:

Mars: Ships with this favour have plus one skill and upgrade.
We all know it already.

Lucius: Ships with this Favour gain the AP trait on their Macro weapons and gain a 25% chance to negate critical damage caused to their hull. Lucius is known for master-crafted weapons and augments. So their ships are especially resilient to crippling damage, and their weapons are especially capable of dealing crippling damage.

Ryza: Ryza ships have +25 speed and +3K range.
Ryza uses experimental weapons and building techniques, aimed at improving the killing power and suvivability of its military forces. Their buffs are simple, and maybe not that exciting, but do stack up with upgrades and are very useful to have.

Voss: Voss Ships gain +100 to their shields and negate 25% of all damage caused while their shields are up.
Stacks with other shield upgrades to make super tanky shielding, since its what the Voss forge-world is very good at making, but wont improve your killing power.

Restricting responses to things I think merit a response instead of "yup, agreed" 😛

@caliger_reborn said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Although stats like hp, speed and damage per shot are likely to stay the same: the addition of a lance turret on the Adeptus Mechanicus Cruiser adds much more tactical flexibility and damage output. This exaggerated by the fact their weapons should fire faster, as they have the best coolant systems in the Imperium and access to auto-loaders for their macro weapons.

Normal Navy ships also have auto-loaders to a degree. It's the only way for their rate of sustained fire to be possible. Though as seen in some art and referenced, the mechanical assists for them seem to be manpowered.

Adeptus Mechanicus ships should also be more accurate, although this could just translate into more range, so 9K heavy Macro batteries and lances, 15K higher tier weapon range. To compensate the individual ships should be more expensive.

I'd go with a range increase over accuracy modifiers.

Neotronium Shell (Nova Cannon only): Allows the equiped ship to choose between two weapon profiles for its Prow Nova Cannon. The standard Plasma Shell or the Neotronium shell. The Neotronium shell does more damage in a smaller area than the Plasma Shell.
Feeling Lucky? If this hits, it will cripple cruisers in a single hit, but its a big if.

Have the damage in a smaller area, but a movement debuff out to the normal radius. Short-lived, but high potential.

Vortex Torpedo (Torpedoes only): Allows the Equipped ship to either fire a spread of normal torpedoes or a single Vortex torpedo. If the Vortex Torpedo hits, it deals 400 true damage to the targets in a wide area.
Easy to dodge, but boy do you want to dodge it.

Disagree here. Vortex Torpedoes are fired in full salvos like normal torpedoes, and their blast radius is actually very small, they never catch other ships in them (if their blast radius was that big a hit would flat out be banishing ships instead of parts of it)

Instead of Vortex torpedoes i'd simply equip them with seeker torpedoes in a manner similar to the Tau.

Lucius: Ships with this Favour gain the AP trait on their Macro weapons and gain a 25% chance to negate critical damage caused to their hull. Lucius is known for master-crafted weapons and augments. So their ships are especially resilient to crippling damage, and their weapons are especially capable of dealing crippling damage.

Honestly, i'm in favour of them scrapping AP altogether.

Ryza: Ryza ships have +25 speed and +3K range.
Ryza uses experimental weapons and building techniques, aimed at improving the killing power and suvivability of its military forces. Their buffs are simple, and maybe not that exciting, but do stack up with upgrades and are very useful to have.

Replace Macrobatteries with Plasma Macrobatteries. Ryza is the king of Plasma.

@caliger_reborn i almost wonder if they should just be IN ships and the real modifications are favors that stack and with every favor you purchase the cost of fielding the ship goes up... so theoretically you could make the stoopid death machine ship but it would be the only ship you could field.

@imptastic said in Fleet of the Machine God:

@caliger_reborn i almost wonder if they should just be IN ships and the real modifications are favors that stack and with every favor you purchase the cost of fielding the ship goes up... so theoretically you could make the stoopid death machine ship but it would be the only ship you could field.

Nah, doesn't really work. The Adeptus Mechanicus have a VERY distinct ship design. While the emplacements may be the same, a Mechanicus Gothic cruiser is different to a Navy Gothic Cruiser.

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they are a lot less cubular and a lot more rectangular then i imagined from the lore

@ashardalon said in Fleet of the Machine God:

they are a lot less cubular and a lot more rectangular then i imagined from the lore

They tend to be longer than roughly equivalent Imperial ships.

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@kadaeux

Normal Navy ships also have auto-loaders to a degree. It's the only way for their rate of sustained fire to be possible. Though as seen in some art and referenced, the mechanical assists for them seem to be manpowered.

It depends on the battle fleet, larger and wealthier fleets will have access to better hardware than smaller fleets that defend back-water sectors. But AdMech ships will pretty much universally have the best tech and equipment available to them, take what I said there as a grossly over-simplified summary to justify a faster reload, I'm not seriously suggesting AdMech have a total monopoly on auto-loaders.

Have the damage in a smaller area, but a movement debuff out to the normal radius. Short-lived, but high potential.

The idea is that its harder to hit, but pays off more if it hits. It's matter of how good you are with dice rolls, I don't want there to be a further debuff.

Disagree here. Vortex Torpedoes are fired in full salvos like normal torpedoes, and their blast radius is actually very small, they never catch other ships in them (if their blast radius was that big a hit would flat out be banishing ships instead of parts of it)

Instead of Vortex torpedoes i'd simply equip them with seeker torpedoes in a manner similar to the Tau.

It was more for game play purposes than lore purposes, trying to make it interesting and somewhat balanced, sticking with the theme of harder to hit but hits harder. But seeker torpedoes are an option.

Honestly, i'm in favour of them scrapping AP altogether.

The other thing I had in mind was having double crits for successful weapon crits, but I already put that in an upgrade and thought that may get a bit overly cheesy if it stacked. One broadside just knocking out everything on a target, I thought the AP was also better than damage modifiers.

Replace Macrobatteries with Plasma Macrobatteries. Ryza is the king of Plasma.

I thought about doing that, but Ryza doesn't just do Plasma, they are famous for innovation in general. So I thought a pair of flat buffs to weapon range and speed were appropriate, as that could be reasoned to be due to more efficient energy flow around the ship and more powerful plasma generators.

@kadaeux said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Do you mean BFG was the darkest? Or Gathering Storm? If the latter, Gathering Storm is by far the darkest period in 40k.

No, I have climate and atmosphere of that publication period in mind. The most gloomy things in 40K are from there.

As for the vulnerability to boarding. I'd say that is less because of poor capability and more because, AdMech ships are factories, laboratories etc first, warships second. There is a LOT to break, and a lot to break that could have cascading faults. Imagine for a second what would happen if a poor Factorium ship manufacturing vortex grenades got boarded in that lab! 😛

And I think that AdMech opposite. There are warships first and with some scientific and productive capabilities. And construct has his God-given purpose to with should be designated and the purples of the destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships are to waging war and removing the untrue constructs from the plane of existence dear to the Machine God. The scientific element is present because quest of knowledge require it.

Unless you're counting the Imperium's merchant fleet, the Mechanicus has the 2nd for fleet size. The Astartes represent a very tiny fraction of space assets available (12-24 thousand ships maybe.) to the Imperium, the Ministorum doesn't have a fleet and isn't allowed one after the Goge Vandire incident.

I also thought so but it turns out that the black fleet is second to the Imperial Navy.

I don't think they're going to add new weapons. Maybe modify weapon batteries to reflect the AdMech's higher tech base, but I'm not expecting to see things like capital scale Volkites, or the Speranza's Temporal Black Hole Cannon.

There are few weapons to chose. In the terrible Beast series, there was mentioned Eradication Macro Cannons on Mechanicus vessels. Neutron lances can be made to I think. I do not want to touch the topic of upgrades and favors about too deeply because we are looking on it from the first game perspective, Machine God only know how second game gonna change in this matter so such wondering can turn about pretty quickly to be pointless.

And I would not hold with boult hands and legs to the perception that Macrocannons are loaded with some loose chains like in some stupid comics. In the Space Marine game, we had fully automated macro cannon and such technology is easily in capabilities of the broth Imperium. It Would be extremely stupid to not use such. Imperium is quite old and maybe the Emperor was a douche but he was not stupid and he would note that there something not right with such manual loading system and such knowledge widespread knowledge would not be easily forgotten. Wonder why they do not loud those canons form the muzzle and fire it with the pice of a match or striking flints and why they use some engines and not space rows of paddles powered by some hopeless drags. Little logic never hurts.

Here it is: Macragge's Honour

You are not seeing such silly things every day, are you? Do you notice that this shell has a much bigger diameter that barrel that they are trying to put it to? It has to be quite a hassle to squeeze it there, especially when there are just 8 guys holding chains to do it with such monstrosity.

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last edited by Grey Seer

except that manual loading is pretty commonly referenced in lore
i know of atleast 3 books where they are mentioned or specifically about gunner crews
im sure that autoloader tech still exists somewhere in the imperium but that doesnt mean a lot of ships have it
humans are a multipurpose tool that is cheap to acquire and easy to maintain or replace when broken
its a sensible thing in 40k actually
well... kindof sensible considering they are firing small buildings filled with explosives, so sensible is not really relevant
also has the benefit of protecting the gun for a short time that can delay boarders until the actual guards arrive

I think autoloaders are there for bigger weapons. There is no realistic way that the bigger munitions can be hauled by humanoids unless they are cyborks or super heavy servitors, or Emperor protect, Space marines in armour.

We are talking about shells the size of a small skyscraper and they sure aren't filled with helium either.

I just can't see the main guns being loaded by chains. Its literally impossible. A hundred meter long naval boat is 4000 tons. 4.000.000 kilograms. A great bodybuilder can lift 400 kilograms.
Therefore we need around.... a ten thousand bodybuilders to lift that ship's single shell.
Or even by going upper limit strength, around a company of marines.

What I can see is smaller lightbore guns (around car sized shells a few tons ) being loaded by hand because the Captain REALLY needed that pure gold statue of himself on the bridge and thus spared some machinery to save up for the giant statute.

This doesn't mean the big guns don't need a gun crew.
We need a Tech Adept to tend to the gun, a gunnery sergeant to tend to the targeting computers (Can be adept too I think) and than we need the gun crew for maintaining the ammo chain loader (Vengeful spirit had WW2 warship style ammo chains) . Oiling it, oiling the gun's moving parts, and generally keeping it in good running order. Plus a slavemaster to keep them in line.

The Admech may not need a gun crew, but I bet they still have servitors working on it. In case the autoloaders jam or get damaged etc.

What I would say is that they aren't as good boarders as Space Marines, but I would not say they are the weakest. I would rate them above Eldar and Tau.
What I would admit is that they are outdone here by Nids and marines, and maybe DA ORKZ.

But any other race I wouldn't put above them. Skitarii combine cyborgs with high tech and an almost hive mind like cohesion that only Orks and Marines and crons can match and Tyranids do better.

But lets make a compromise. How about they would be less resistant to lightning strikes (Due to the sudden nature) but more resistant than average to regular boarding? (They got more than enough time to see the boarding pods coming and ready the murdercyborgs).

As for Admech ships, I would say just better but more expensive with an extra lance turret. Better sensors, maybe better side armour, more accurate or longer range guns.

As for why no assault boats, I think that has to do with their brand of logic. Their ships are rare and they consider them sacred.
Thus I would say they keep Skitarii on ship to keep it safe until the end of the battle, and than loot and board any scrap once their ships are surely and clearly out of any danger by enemy boarders.

In some novels I did read that they got some kind of small special Interceptor craft that are servitor driven and are linked into swarms to intercept anything that gets too close. I think one of the novels says they are spherical or got spherical parts.

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Maybe that's why the cockpit of this scavenged TIE Interceptor go!

I would say the Admech fleet is a longer ranged, tankier version of the IN that trades some of its bomber and assault boat and torpedo capacity for better fighters and longer ranged macrobatteries and lances and more novas.

@caliger_reborn said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Although a Skitarii assault should be very damaging, as they have Space Marine shooting and fighting abilities and have weapons almost as good as bolters (although they lack power armour so are much more squishy) so maybe make Skitarii Legionnaires an upgrade for potentially so that an aggressive boarding action would do a lot of damage even if they cant take them back.

Skitarii Legionaries: After performing a successful boarding action, deal 1 additional critical damage.

Shouldn't that be Classiarii, not Legionaires? The Classiarii are literally custom-designed to be used in Void warfare, they'd be perfect at it!

I'm not entirely certain why the Adeptus Mechanicus would be considered bad at boarding. They would have the Skitarii up and ready in any combat situation, so as to protect their sacred ships.

@romeo As far as I can tell they are very rare, since only a few Forgeworlds in and around the Calixis Sector use them.

I know Mars, and therefore most Forgeworlds, tend to roll their manipals into single ground-space formations that use largely the same forces at every level. Since this is a far more efficient use of resources and a more manageable formation for defensive and aggressive purposes. Similar to how space marine leigions and the Imperial army used to be.

@Imperator There TT boarding is bad, low troop value, so defensively they are horrible at boarding and much of their defenders are very weak to well equipped and trained boarding forces. Although their agressive boarding, with upgrades I suggested, would be less likely to be successful but do higher than average critical damage.

@grey-seer said in Fleet of the Machine God:

No, I have climate and atmosphere of that publication period in mind. The most gloomy things in 40K are from there.

No, 3rd Ed was one of the darkest, but the worst grimdark by a trillion miles is definitely the Gathering Storm era. Especially since almost every even they've had for it so far (Fall of Cadia, Primarchs are returning etc) are literally the pre-requisites GW laid down for 40k's end-times. (Laid down in 2nd edition some time, especially the return of the Primarchs which is supposed to signal, if my memory serves right, Rhana Dandra, the final battle against Chaos.)

But I can see where you'd get the impression. 40k jumped from a "Campy" Scifi 1st and 2nd Edition into massive grimdark. The sense of darkness was much greater from 2nd to 3rd because it was such a huge paradigm shift which is why 4th-7th took a Laspistol enema and lightened the fuck up a bit 😛

But it was still grimdark so when 7th jumped into 8th/Gathering Storm, the impact was significantly lower (but still present.)

And I think that AdMech opposite. There are warships first and with some scientific and productive capabilities. And construct has his God-given purpose to with should be designated and the purples of the destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships are to waging war and removing the untrue constructs from the plane of existence dear to the Machine God. The scientific element is present because quest of knowledge require it.

And you'd be wrong. I was stating fact not opinion.

Unless you're counting the Imperium's merchant fleet, the Mechanicus has the 2nd for fleet size. The Astartes represent a very tiny fraction of space assets available (12-24 thousand ships maybe.) to the Imperium, the Ministorum doesn't have a fleet and isn't allowed one after the Goge Vandire incident.

I also thought so but it turns out that the black fleet is second to the Imperial Navy.

Got to ask where you get this impression, because either its wrong or incomplete. Or dependent on including the large number of transports. The actual number of warships the Inquisition possesses is relatively small.

You are not seeing such silly things every day, are you? Do you notice that this shell has a much bigger diameter that barrel that they are trying to put it to? It has to be quite a hassle to squeeze it there, especially when there are just 8 guys holding chains to do it with such monstrosity.

The comics have had some fabulously bad things in them before. Like that 😛

@ashardalon said in Fleet of the Machine God:

except that manual loading is pretty commonly referenced in lore
i know of atleast 3 books where they are mentioned or specifically about gunner crews
im sure that autoloader tech still exists somewhere in the imperium but that doesnt mean a lot of ships have it
humans are a multipurpose tool that is cheap to acquire and easy to maintain or replace when broken
its a sensible thing in 40k actually
well... kindof sensible considering they are firing small buildings filled with explosives, so sensible is not really relevant
also has the benefit of protecting the gun for a short time that can delay boarders until the actual guards arrive

Yeah, man power to operate the auto-loaders as opposed to fully powered loading. Because physically loading the guns themselves *by hand or even chain is flat out physically impossible. No matter the novel, most have Macrocannons firing multiple times per minute. By real world comparison, the Schwerer Gustav, an 80cm gun and one of the closest things to a real Ordinatus that ever existed, took 30-45 minutes to reload. About the same time the Ultramarines Omnibus gave for the Nova Cannon, and the shell for that had a 50 metre diameter. (And is slower that most other depictions of Nova Cannon reloading.)

@romeo said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Shouldn't that be Classiarii, not Legionaires? The Classiarii are literally custom-designed to be used in Void warfare, they'd be perfect at it!

I'm not entirely certain why the Adeptus Mechanicus would be considered bad at boarding. They would have the Skitarii up and ready in any combat situation, so as to protect their sacred ships.

From what I can see, basically Skitarii are too valuable to use in that manner. Let alone shove into Assault Boats or Boarding Torpedoes. It may simply be a case of not that the Adeptus Mechanicus are bad at boarding, so much as it isn't in their doctrines to really engage in it. Thus they opt for rarer teleport assaults.

But the breakdown back to gameplay becomes the headache. On TT, the AdMech fleet, excluding the Ark Mechanicus, was just "Imperial Navy 2.0" same ships, with fancy high-tech refits or even experimental modifications due to the high ranking Tech Priests controlling them. Nerfing them against boarding has basically some boilerplate attempt at balancing that didn't work.

@kadaeux said in Fleet of the Machine God:

I also thought so but it turns out that the black fleet is second to the Imperial Navy.

Got to ask where you get this impression, because either its wrong or incomplete. Or dependent on including the large number of transports. The actual number of warships the Inquisition possesses is relatively small.

thats where your misunderstanding comes from
the inquisition doesnt really own the black ships
inquisitors are used on them and they use the black ships
but the black ships are prettymuch a separate organization whose sole purpose is fueling the astronomican (and getting some useful psychers out of it)
this takes a massive amount of ships constantly ferrying back and fort from terra to every other planet in the imperium
but yes technically those are transports, incredibly powerful transports that in some cases have some age of tech weapons on board that could seriously hurt warships combined with stealth tech that can confuse eldar
but still technically transports
a ridiculous amount of transports because hundreds if not thousands of psychers are needed every day with no interruptions or the entire imperium collapses
the black ship fleets have barely changed since they where set up by the emperor, unknown by the rest of the imperium and because of that staying unchanged

@kadaeux said in Fleet of the Machine God:

Yeah, man power to operate the auto-loaders as opposed to fully powered loading. Because physically loading the guns themselves *by hand or even chain is flat out physically impossible. No matter the novel, most have Macrocannons firing multiple times per minute. By real world comparison, the Schwerer Gustav, an 80cm gun and one of the closest things to a real Ordinatus that ever existed, took 30-45 minutes to reload. About the same time the Ultramarines Omnibus gave for the Nova Cannon, and the shell for that had a 50 metre diameter. (And is slower that most other depictions of Nova Cannon reloading.)

definitely not claiming its pure manpower, they have mechanical aids
but on the other hand i also have to question those numbers for reload speed
space battles are also often described as taking days to resolve
there are mentions of a ship firing a broadside then taking 8hours to fire the next in some books
if they where firing every 45min for days how much mass would they be sending out?
just more 40k inconsistencies
from some of the books i have read it seems more logical to take the middle ground where its approximately 2hours to reload but again, its 40k so hoping for accurate numbers or agreeing with people is (almost) delusional

@kadaeux said in Fleet of the Machine God:

But the breakdown back to gameplay becomes the headache. On TT, the AdMech fleet, excluding the Ark Mechanicus, was just "Imperial Navy 2.0" same ships, with fancy high-tech refits or even experimental modifications due to the high ranking Tech Priests controlling them. Nerfing them against boarding has basically some boilerplate attempt at balancing that didn't work.

this i can agree with
from what i read in this tread people seem to all think mechanicus is imperial navy but better in every way but also one of the biggest fleets so cant cost much more points
more weapons, more voids, more accurate, more crits, more side armor, better interceptors, better boarding attack, better scanners, better lightning strikes...
more everything
there needs to be something that suffers for balance
and boarding defense is one thing, tho i doubt it will be enough
should probably also get some serious aversion to ramming, the mechanicus seeing that as too primitive and too big a risk for their precious tech and experiments (you know tech priests arnt going to stop their tests just because a battle is going on) or something

last edited by Ashardalon

@ashardalon said in Fleet of the Machine God:

thats where your misunderstanding comes from
the inquisition doesnt really own the black ships
inquisitors are used on them and they use the black ships
but the black ships are prettymuch a separate organization whose sole purpose is fueling the astronomican (and getting some useful psychers out of it)
this takes a massive amount of ships constantly ferrying back and fort from terra to every other planet in the imperium
but yes technically those are transports, incredibly powerful transports that in some cases have some age of tech weapons on board that could seriously hurt warships combined with stealth tech that can confuse eldar
but still technically transports
a ridiculous amount of transports because hundreds if not thousands of psychers are needed every day with no interruptions or the entire imperium collapses

Still Inquisition. A very specific subset, but the Black Ships are explicitly part of the Inquisition's remit. They're merely a semi-autonomous element of it. And to be specific, technically it's 1000 psykers every day for the Golden Throne. (Mind you, that is still an absolutely staggering number, assuming the Imperium only had 1 million worlds (we have too many sources citing much bigger numbers) that's still basically saying that a black ship would need to collect a minimum of 1 psyker per thousand worlds daily to support the Golden Throne's input alone. (Of course, since Hive Worlds frequently have populations in the hundreds of billions, it's marginally possible.)

@kadaeux said in Fleet of the Machine God:
definitely not claiming its pure manpower, they have mechanical aids
but on the other hand i also have to question those numbers for reload speed
space battles are also often described as taking days to resolve
there are mentions of a ship firing a broadside then taking 8hours to fire the next in some books
if they where firing every 45min for days how much mass would they be sending out?
just more 40k inconsistencies
from some of the books i have read it seems more logical to take the middle ground where its approximately 2hours to reload but again, its 40k so hoping for accurate numbers or agreeing with people is (almost) delusional

Out of the hundred+ books i've got. All of them agree on a high rate of fire. Which is supported by Battlefleet Gothic that states that standard procedure for weapons batteries is to saturate space where the enemy will be by the time munitions get there to catch them in a 'maelstrom of destruction'. This is literally impossible to achieve even if it too only minutes to reload weapons. So there is no middle ground at 2 hours. That's an insane and impossible amount of time not consistent with the larger volume.

30m is literally the slowest figure i've ever seen for reloading, and that was explicitly for a Nova Cannon.

this i can agree with
from what i read in this tread people seem to all think mechanicus is imperial navy but better in every way but also one of the biggest fleets so cant cost much more points
more weapons, more voids, more accurate, more crits, more side armor, better interceptors, better boarding attack, better scanners, better lightning strikes...
more everything
there needs to be something that suffers for balance
and boarding defense is one thing, tho i doubt it will be enough
should probably also get some serious aversion to ramming, the mechanicus seeing that as too primitive and too big a risk for their precious tech and experiments (you know tech priests arnt going to stop their tests just because a battle is going on) or something

To be fair, the Mechanicus refits frequently had downsides associated with them. (More voids = another system suffers etc) But the actual practical effect in TT was negligible. It's possible with a PC game to make it more relevant though.

Assuming there is any significant type of customisation. The upgrades and skills of BFGA seem to have created a lot of the imbalances, and I get the impression that side of the game is either going to be nerfed or even culled entirely. I hope i'm wrong.

last edited by Kadaeux

i have a lot of reasons to find firing building sized shells several times a minute ridiculous
and also 100+ books that contradict that number because it is ridiculous
and claiming you need that firerate is just a misinterpretation of the scale of space battles
also one commonly done by writers that cant really comprehend that scale
but im not going to convince you because you have a book you like that is wrong and that makes all other lore irrelevant

30 minutes to fire a novacannon that can oneshot a cruiser
so the invasion of the wordbearers could have been over in 2.5hours if the imperium had a single ship with a novacannon
but that would be using common sense, nevermind

also ignoring the time necessary for boarding actions to be even remotely relevant

using those numbers there wouldnt be a space battle that took 20minutes
but again, common sense and actual lore
nevermind

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