[Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle

On a failed Dodge i refuset to use the Dodge skill because i was in the tackle zone of a chaos dwarf (tackle skill). The game put my player down and i suffered a turnover, while i should be able to use a the Team RR.
I set the game option about the use of the Dodge skill on "Manual"

Blood Bowl Moderator

Do you have the details of the game, so that the focus guys can look into it.

Focus Team

It's not a bug, if you don't use the Dodge skill, the game think you actually want to be put on the ground.
The right sequence is: Fail the dodge -> Use the dodge skill -> The opponent uses (or not) the Tackle skill -> you can use a team reroll

Ok, but if i choose to use the dodge skill, is the skill wasted?
The rules says that Tackle prevents the use of Dodge, but i can save it for later (i.e. to dodge away form a piece without Tackle)
if the skill is wasted then this is a bug, otherwise it's a game mechanic that is not implemented in the same way of the original game

@Focus_Guillaume said in [Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle:

It's not a bug, if you don't use the Dodge skill, the game think you actually want to be put on the ground.
The right sequence is: Fail the dodge -> Use the dodge skill -> The opponent uses (or not) the Tackle skill -> you can use a team reroll

I'm somewhat uncertain.. We probably could use help of some diehard BB veteran here, to give a judgement:

Tackle (General)
Opposing players who are standing in any of this player’s tackle zones
are not allowed to use their Dodge skill if they attempt to dodge out of
any of the player’s tackle zones, nor may they use their Dodge skill if the
player throws a block at them and uses the Tackle skill.

So it doesn't seem like Tackle wastes your Dodge roll, it just prevents you from using it. In this case it should still allow you to reroll it with TRR, I'm pretty much sure it worked like this in previous game (remember from my Amazons plays with dorfs). So you rejecting to use Dodge yourself (when it's set to manual) should result in the same outcome as you've been prevented from using it by tackle - it should offer you to use TRR. And yes, addressing @gcclaudio question: it seems it should allow you to then use this Dodge roll at some other place this turn, as it wasn't spent.

Dodge (Agility)
A player with the Dodge skill is adept at slipping away from opponents,
and is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails to dodge out of any of an
opposing player’s tackle zones. However, the player may only re-roll one
failed Dodge roll per turn. In addition, the Dodge skill, if used, affects the
results rolled on the Block dice, as explained in the Blocking rules

It says he is allowed to reroll, not must to always use it when he Dodges.

last edited by Mori-Mori
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Correct, @Mori-Mori. Tackle prevents use of Dodge, so a TRR can be used. This saves the Dodge RR for later.

I.e., if I got it right, topicstarter was not presented with an option to use TRR when he declined to use Dodge skill himlself. That doesn't seem right.

Edit:
Actually, that's strange he was presented with option to choose whether he wants to use Dodge at all, as he was under Tackle effect. Can it be that when it's set to Manual, something breaks?

last edited by Mori-Mori

Technically, as most skill use is optional, including Tackle, they've got the steps correct, though I imagine it's rare that a Tackle player would want their opponent to use Dodge.

Also not the most intuitive way of doing it.

I've done some testings. In general it seems to work as expected, whether it's in "Manual", or "Auto". If I fail dodge roll while fleeing from players with Tackle and reroll it with TRR, I still can use Dodge skill to reroll my other Dodge rolls this turn (fleeing from players without Tackle).

Yet, when I set it to "Manual", it becomes confusing. It's exactly as @gcclaudio described. When you fail dodge roll while fleeing from player with Tackle, the usual popup menu appears which asks whether you want to use your Dodge skill - when actually in this case it shouldn't appear at all, as Tackle negates Dodge. I understand how it may seem confusing as well, especially for your first time. If you still choose to use the skill, you, of course, hit the ground, as Tackle negates it. Then you are offered to reroll with TRR (and in case of successful rerolling you still will be able to use Dodge skill by this player to reroll some other dodge roll this turn). If you choose to not use the skill, you just hit the ground, no option to reroll at all in this case.

This is counter-intuitive, imo. In such case it should proceed without asking you for anything, then after you fell just offer you to use TRR right away. Or, at least, it should offer you to use TRR regardless of what you choose, as both options result in the same outcome here (Dodge skill is not used).

last edited by Mori-Mori

What if the other coach had tackle set to optional? I'm guessing this is why they were so hesitant to make skills optional!

@Javelin said in [Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle:

What if the other coach had tackle set to optional? I'm guessing this is why they were so hesitant to make skills optional!

I was testing locally, in hot-seat mode, Tackle wasn't optional

@Mori-Mori I didn't mean to imply that was what caused the sequence, just that it has to be considered when deciding what the proper sequence should be. Since tackle could be optional we can't assume that the game doesn't need to check if the player wants to use dodge.

Of course, perhaps tackle being optional is only for blocking actions and not its passive defensive attributes. That would make sense and simplify things.

@Javelin said in [Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle:

@Mori-Mori I didn't mean to imply that was what caused the sequence, just that it has to be considered when deciding what the proper sequence should be. Since tackle could be optional we can't assume that the game doesn't need to check if the player wants to use dodge.

It has to check it, of course. But in this particular case Tackle is used, yet it still asks whether to use Dodge. It probably would be more logical if opponent would be asked first, in this case. As almost always the answer will be "yes" (I'm not sure what is tactical benefits of not using Tackle on somebody failing dodge in front of you, but probably there are some rare cases you may want it, dunno). But that's half of a problem. The real is that it results in different outcomes, depending to your choice, and that's counter-intuitive. It's slight issue, of course, more like "enhancing the UI" kind, no real bug. But such things are important, UI shouldn't be clumsy and confusing, and Dodge skill is constantly used by some teams.

last edited by Mori-Mori

The original rule says that when both coaches want use some skills during an action, the first to decide about using skills is the one that is carring the action (page 14 CRP).
In my case i was moving so the game should present me 3 options:

  • using the dodge skill
  • using a Team RR
  • failing the roll
    and after my answer ask to the opponent about using Tackle if needed.

Note: if was my opponent turn, i.e. i was moving because of pass block, the Tackle piece needs to declare about using the skill before i decide about Dodge.

If Dodge is set to manual what happens if a player with the Dodge skill moves away from a player with Tackle skill, selects Yes to use Dodge (which is actually using a Team RR) but then dodges again later in the move past a player without Tackle?

Hopefully the option to use the Dodge Skill is still available for the 2nd Dodge and not 'used up' during the first dodge when the skill couldn't be used?

Focus Team

@Itchen-Masack said in [Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle:

If Dodge is set to manual what happens if a player with the Dodge skill moves away from a player with Tackle skill, selects Yes to use Dodge (which is actually using a Team RR) but then dodges again later in the move past a player without Tackle?

Hopefully the option to use the Dodge Skill is still available for the 2nd Dodge and not 'used up' during the first dodge when the skill couldn't be used?

Yes, you should be able to use the Dodge skill again if your first attempt was cancelled by the Tackle skill.

@Itchen-Masack said in [Beta] Bug on Dodge vs Tackle:

Hopefully the option to use the Dodge Skill is still available for the 2nd Dodge and not 'used up' during the first dodge when the skill couldn't be used?

It is, I tested it.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Yep, worked just fine in my match last night.

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