PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression

And really it shouldn't! I'm told that this worked correctly in the beta.

teams that have removed and replaced players get winnings, if you re-roll winnings you get winnings, you can gain spp's and mvp, you gain fan factor, teams that are undead/necro can kill an opponent perm and res them into a zombie.

last edited by Kurgol

@bzl-eleven said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

And really it shouldn't! I'm told that this worked correctly in the beta.

Are you sure? Certainly in other forms of competitions they aren't gaining SPP or anything, though necromancers will still allow an undead or necromantic team to kill one player (the raised zombie is removed from the other guy's roster) which is wrong.

I'm all for SPP in ladder format competitions under rez... the other form of advancement they had planned for rez doesn't make sense in ladders, and ladders don't make much sense with no progression unless you're using team editor teams.

well that could be the official naf ladder down the pan then (which is designed to mimic the naf tabletop tourneys, by using the custom team editor).

last edited by Kurgol

@VoodooMike Surely you would agree being able to not have progression makes sense when there is a reason for it. And as you so clearly point out 'unless you are using team editor teams' is a reason.

Editor teams are literally one of the new features for the game. Why introduce the ability to create specific team setups for league and ladder play, and the res format itself, which essentially ensures no losses to a team, and then not include the option for that style of play?

"Here kids, we've build you some goals in the garden to play with. What ball? Nah, we don't think you need a ball to play in the garden."

@Kurgol said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

well that will be the official naf ladder down the pan then (which is designed to mimic the naf tabletop tourneys, by using the custom team editor).

If you plan on using the team editor to alter the teams in that ladder then it doesn't matter if you're gaining SPPs or not, right? Unless you mean zero progression of any sort in which case I agree there's a place for no-progression ladders with totally custom teams, but I suspect that's far more niche than progression ladders under rez.

@JamToast said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

Editor teams are literally one of the new features for the game. Why introduce the ability to create specific team setups for league and ladder play, and the res format itself, which essentially ensures no losses to a team, and then not include the option for that style of play?

Oh I'm all for options, but I think there will be more call for rez ladders WITH progression than there will be for rez ladders without. It'd be best to have the option for either, but if we can only have one of the two I'd want it WITH progression, and I don't think set TV advancement (which was what was planned to be the only progression system available with rez) works well with open play where people can have vastly different numbers of games played, as it would make team development completely unrelated to how well you do in matches.

Not to mention if you wanted a 9000 TV team you'd just concede your first 100 games to get the bonus Tv without playing.

The ladder is designed to be played by teams created using the naf rules (with the exception for bb2' isms that differ from tabletop).

so you spend out 1100tv on players, then apply skills as per the Tier your team fits in.

From that point on your tv should never change, no progresion, res ladder that you can match for naf games.

Ideally you'd be able to roster inducements for the full naf tabletop result but obviously limitations of the client prevent that 😉

the above was working when tested during the beta.

NAF Ladder Rules

last edited by Kurgol

What we REALLY need is a option for leagues to turn ON and OFF progression.

@EdTheMad said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

What we REALLY need is a option for leagues to turn ON and OFF progression.

Yeah, options are always better than forced anything. It'd be nice if they could give each competition the option to use SPP or fixed-TV as an option for progression style rather than what they'd planned (non-rez is SPP based, rez is fixed-TV). Fixed-Tv didn't get implemented, but I can see it being something people might want to use for knockout tournaments even if they did not want rez, and I can certainly see SPP-based development being something people might want in an open ladder format, too.

totally agree both should be an option, it was logged as a bug report though as it was working as described in beta when we ran a test league.

In reality with res ladder and spp gains, you will just endlessly fire people until you get perfect skillups on your players. No skaven player will have a stormvermin without claw etc. Why would you, when you can just keep skilling them until you get claw, and then it will never die. Eventually leading to perfect teams (that could ofc be created by people at the start, but I think a lot of people will want to avoid those perfect teams if they don't have one themselves)

If you have to choose one option, the res = no spp option is the one that makes the most sense, and results in the better experience for players. If you want to gain skills and things, you have to risk the players for it to keep the ladders healthy.

A toggle does mean people can do whatever they want, and is the ideal option, but if you have to have one or the other, no SPP gain just makes the most sense (in my opinion!)

@JamToast said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

In reality with res ladder and spp gains, you will just endlessly fire people until you get perfect skillups on your players.

That's taking a supremely rare thing and saying it should be assumed for everybody. To get the "perfect team" you'd need to play hundreds of matches (at least) with that team... and that almost never happens. There are barely any teams in BB2, after two years, that have played hundreds of games that were not fast concessions.

So while it is technically true that you could create a perfect team that way it is also technically true you could create a perfect team under non-rez that way too, just unlikely. If ageing is turned on it's flat out impossible under either.

@JamToast said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

If you have to choose one option, the res = no spp option is the one that makes the most sense, and results in the better experience for players.

I don't agree. That leads to only two forms of ladders: 1000 TV ladders, and team editor ladders. Progression ladders are going to be more widely used regardless of the attrition system.

@JamToast said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

If you want to gain skills and things, you have to risk the players for it to keep the ladders healthy.

We've never had a ladder with progression and rez, so that's just a guess. Assuming unlimited progression under rez DID cause problems, it still wouldn't require "risking players" to stay healthy, just some form of attrition... and ageing could handle that (to prevent those perfect teams mentioned above for the 3 people who will ever play 1000 games with a single team).

We all agree making it optional would be best, of course. My hope is just that they make the call soon as I can see running a ladder in either case, but it has to be run under a system that will remain constant once it starts 😕

Well, we can argue about which option is better, though that isn't really the point here. The game seems to be trying to do non-progession:

  • You don't get SPP during the game, and the post-game stats screen shows no SPP on anyone (it just appears on your players afterwards)
  • You don't get gold from the game unless you reroll your winnings, which both teams can always do
  • Teams with a necromancer can add new zombies to their team

What we have right now is neither progression or non, but a broken mish-mash of both.

@bzl-eleven said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

You don't get SPP during the game, and the post-game stats screen shows no SPP on anyone (it just appears on your players afterwards)

If that's happening it's only on the ladder format - I tested it in knockout tournament format and neither team gained SPP even after the match was done.

@bzl-eleven said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

Teams with a necromancer can add new zombies to their team

I'm not sure the adding the new zombie is the problem (is that really against rez/no progression rules?) it's the fact that it removes the player who was turned into a zombie from the opposing team in the process, causing a death in a no-death environment. That, for sure, needs fixing.

@bzl-eleven said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

What we have right now is neither progression or non, but a broken mish-mash of both.

For sure. We do need a bunch of stuff fixed in rez, I'm just hoping we can at least get the option of progression under rez or it becomes a pure team editor extension... which makes allowing non LE owners to access rez leagues a bit goofy given their inability to use the team editor.

Aging does indeed stop that. You are right that there just needs to be a solution to endless skilling with res active.

And to clarify, I think it is important to have a clear 'this is how it should work' message really, even if it is currently bugged. The whole 'I think it should be this way' stuff is to show there are other sides to it, and reasons why people might prefer one way over the other. I wouldn't want to see a 'bug fix' happen to put the system one way or another purely because the devs take the opinion of a few community members as the gospel for everyone playing. I know it doesn't always happen, but it does sometimes feel that way!

Right now we're in a situation where it is clearly broken in some way, and there are a lot of plans being drawn up by different groups for running their leagues/ladders based on beta info, and that could all turn out to be a waste of time and effort, leading to people being disappointed.

I'm not sure the adding the new zombie is the problem (is that really against rez/no progression rules?)

Yeah, it has to be against the rules. Otherwise you have a ladder where every team starts at, say, 1200 TV, and then the necro and undead teams eventually get a bunch of free zombies... forever. They are progressing, you might say.

@JamToast said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

Right now we're in a situation where it is clearly broken in some way, and there are a lot of plans being drawn up by different groups for running their leagues/ladders based on beta info, and that could all turn out to be a waste of time and effort, leading to people being disappointed.

Oh yeah, for sure... even I'm being held back by the fact that we don't know if and when things will be fixed and how they will end up. I want to run a ladder/tournament league with cash prizes, but the zombification bug and not knowing if SPP gain will stay or go in the ladders make it impossible to do anything serious until we have a stable setup.

@bzl-eleven said in PC Res Mode Ladders still have spp gain and progression:

Yeah, it has to be against the rules. Otherwise you have a ladder where every team starts at, say, 1200 TV, and then the necro and undead teams eventually get a bunch of free zombies... forever. They are progressing, you might say.

Heh, a free unskilled zombie in a rez environment is more of a punishment than a benefit - you'd be getting TV bloat without much benefit... the only benefit being more bench on the off chance you actually have players taken out of commission (which... isn't common with the teams that have a necromancer.. but it could happen I guess). So long as the zombie is available during the match he's raised in, even if not available to be added to the roster at the end, I guess necromancers still have SOME use under rez.

Heh, a free unskilled zombie in a rez environment is more of a punishment than a benefit - you'd be getting TV bloat without much benefit...

In this sort of environment, generally most (or all!) inducements are not allowed, so TV bloat is not a thing.

And yeah, it means that Nurgle's Rot does nothing, and should do nothing; that's a casualty of the format.

Tested with a KO tourney and this also awarded Spps and Fan Factor after the match. And a winnings re-roll was possible(from nothing into something).

Any word on when this will be fixed please?

last edited by JimmyFantastic

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