Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders

The request is simple: enable SPP gain in ladder-style competitions in private leagues. While I understand that the decision was to inexorably combine rez and set-TV increase per match, that form of progression is only appropriate for competitions with fixed match schedules not open ladders where people can play wildly different numbers of matches.

Of course, presently the set-TV increase thing isn't in place either... rez just means you can't ever make any progress with the team you make. It might be wise to enable SPP gain at least as an option in all types of competitions since all that takes is a checkbox instead of an entire new system (I'm sure y'all will get around to that latter part in due time).

In fact, I'm not sure SPP-based development really makes much sense in most of the tournament-style competitions, so giving them the option of doing fixed-TV development even if they are not rez based. It's another good reason to separate the rez option from the options related to team improvement.

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Rez mode with SPP gain would only remove the injuries right?

@Netheos said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Rez mode with SPP gain would only remove the injuries right?

Right. Ladders without progression don't make much sense unless all the teams are made with the team editor... and ladders where you gain a set amount of TV every match would excessively emphasize the number of games played versus performance in those games.

Some people on another thread are claiming that SPP gain is actually happening in rez ladders... in which case my suggestion is "don't fix that!".. but maybe make it optional. I do think team editor ladders with zero progression would be fun, too, but they'd be far more niche.

I second that request from VoodooMike.

+1

such rez ladders could make the start for newer players much easier. you could even think about setting the anarchy ladder to such a rez mode (not sure about it, I am just throwing it in here)

I believe there are home rules at some TT leagues which map injuries to additional MNGs. So, say, "minus stat" injury becomes 2MNGs, "dead" - 3 MNGs etc (I'm not sure about actual rates they use). That could probably make it a bit less dull than playing without injuries at all, yet still wouldn't cause permanent damage to team. Could be an optional feature, for example.

last edited by Mori-Mori

Could do it and add any team that level up in such a league has a REZ Tag on it so you can lock them out of normal Leagues and you can only play those teams in Leagues with the REZ optoin set. Kinda like they have the Custom Team and Mixed Team tags.

Some people on another thread are claiming that SPP gain is actually happening in rez ladders... in which case my suggestion is "don't fix that!".. but maybe make it optional. I do think team editor ladders with zero progression would be fun, too, but they'd be far more niche.

It is happening, please fix it. A switch to make it optional is probably the best way to go, there's no reason not to and it would satisfy everyone.

For those who have no idea why a team editor competition with zero (or at least severely limited) progression would be desirable: Please consider that this is essentially how tabletop tournaments have been run, successfully, for decades. This is a feature that I, and others, have been awaiting for months and it seems reasonable to think that it might entice more TT players to try BB2.

I have no interest whatsoever in open leagues or the competitive aspect of the game, I only play with my friends and girlfriend.

I was very happy to see we could get SPP in resurrection mode, since we like making new teams and leveling them up but the injuries would make it impossible to continue playing by the two of us after a while. Then I found out that's apparently unintended.

I would really like if you added an option to have resurrection mode with SPP gain enabled and a toggle for turning off the waiting time for competitions when you're just running a league with a friend. It's very tiring waiting 5 minutes for a match or having to make new competitions constantly to work around it.

@Razzlie said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

the injuries would make it impossible to continue playing by the two of us after a while

You can fire injured players and by new ones, you know..

last edited by Mori-Mori

@VoodooMike said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

The request is simple: enable SPP gain in ladder-style competitions (...) at least as an option

IMO it's ONLY ok if it is an option, if not would be game killing. So i don't agree at all with this "at least".

spp+casualties on one side
rez and no spp on the other side

are the two main ways to play, please don't kill that.

Np with it being optionnal of course, even if i don't see the big point when you can now play any game with any skill/stats you want.

@ungern said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

IMO it's ONLY ok if it is an option, if not would be game killing. So i don't agree at all with this "at least".

If it would "kill the game", captain melodrama, then don't play in a league with that option enabled. You sound like someone who doesn't like rez in any form anyway.

@ungern said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

spp+casualties on one side
rez and no spp on the other side
are the two main ways to play, please don't kill that.

To date we've never had the latter online so really its not the two main ways to play. Tournaments that do rez almost always have some form of progression, it just isn't based on SPP. Rez with no progression would make no sense unless it was used in conjunction with the team editor, and while rez is available to people without LE, the team editor is not. There needs to be progression with rez for the option to make sense... and unless they come up with a good alternative to SPP, SPP is the type of progression we've got.

@ungern said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Np with it being optionnal of course, even if i don't see the big point when you can now play any game with any skill/stats you want.

Cool, like I said... don't play it, then.

I think some of the folks who are following this discussion may not understand how res works in practice, so let me explain a bit more about how tabletop tournaments are actually run:

Everyone gets a set amount of gold to build their team (commonly 1100k) and can then choose a certain amount of skills to add to some of their players. Games are then played with resurrection and one of two options:

  1. No progression at all
  2. Halfway through the tournament everyone adds a few more skills to their team

Option 2) is, of course, "progression with res" and I would argue that it is a "good alternative to SPP" since it has worked successfully for many years. Cyanide doesn't make this easy to do right now, but the concept is well tested. Option 1), which is what I am arguing for, works well also and has two extra benefits:

  • It is much simpler for a computer program to handle. (It already worked in the beta!)
  • It works in ladders as well as tournaments with a set number of rounds

This may not be a "main way to play" online (yet!) but it is a main way to play Blood Bowl. On the other hand, res with full SPP gain is not.

Clearly there are a lot of people on both sides of this issue, so again I would encourage Cyanide to just make it a league creation option.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

I think some of the folks who are following this discussion may not understand how res works in practice, so let me explain a bit more about how tabletop tournaments are actually run

...and I think it's equally important to go into why it is done that way in tournaments rather than simply laying it out like it's important it be done that way always.

The point of controlled, equal progression is the same as the point of rez in those tournaments: to minimize the effect of random chance on the health of the team during each of the stages of the tournament. Really bad luck shouldn't ruin someone's chances to place... and really good luck shouldn't excessively benefit a team in terms of placement.

As has been stated already in this thread (the first post, even) the set form of progression makes plenty of sense in tournaments and even in limited-play scheduled leagues - even if they're not rez - for the same reason it makes sense in TT tournaments. It makes zero sense in perpetual open play environments where, at present, those who don't own LE can't do anything but create fresh teams and thus, would only ever be able to play in roughly 1000 TV rez leagues.

In open ladder play the rate at which TV gains are made is not all that different between the rosters... what differs significantly is the rate at which they LOSE it due to attrition, and the frequency with which they lose it. That's caused by the different rates of on-pitch attrition suffered by the various rosters. To that end, rez in open play is a way to deal with that imbalance - the imbalance that leads to an over-representation of bash teams at higher levels of development. SPP is a completely open-ended and viable method of development for ladder play.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

This may not be a "main way to play" online (yet!) but it is a main way to play Blood Bowl. On the other hand, res with full SPP gain is not.

Large-scale open ladders are almost non-existent in tabletop, while they are far and away the most common way to play online... so while it's swell to hand-wave around those dramatic differences between TT and online, they're mighty important considerations for any serious discussion on the topic.... moreso than rote parroting of tradition, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Clearly there are a lot of people on both sides of this issue, so again I would encourage Cyanide to just make it a league creation option.

Everybody agrees with having more options in league creation and operation. The main issue is with the idea that rez and no-SPP have to be paired. They do not. Even people who want to talk about how they often are understand that they don't have to be used together and any suggestion to the contrary is disingenuous at best.

The point of controlled, equal progression is the same as the point of rez in those tournaments: to minimize the effect of random chance on the health of the team during each of the stages of the tournament.

Equal progression, or lack thereof, has no effect on this whatsoever. I'm fine with either.

In open ladder play the rate at which TV gains are made is not all that different between the rosters...

In open ladder play the rate at which TV gains are made is a function of how many games each team plays. The point of res without progression in a ladder is to guarantee that, when you spin, you'll always come up against a relatively equal team. This isn't the only way to do that, of course, as I know you've put a lot of thought into the issue.

Large-scale open ladders are almost non-existent in tabletop, while they are far and away the most common way to play online...

Aren't something like 90% of games on the Cyanide client in private leagues? I may be completely wrong, and I have no reference for this but I'm sure I read it somewhere.

The main issue is with the idea that rez and no-SPP have to be paired. They do not.

Oh of course they don't have to, and I've said a couple of times that my own preference is that they not be. Res also does not have to be paired with progression.

Finally, I should note that this is not for any sort of official Cyanide ladders but only for private leagues. I understand that it is a little bit unfair to restrict a league only to people who own the latest version of the game. That happens in almost every league eventually though (how many people still play their league games in BB1?) and shouldn't be a disqualifier for any particular feature.

It's almost hil;arious that you think, once again, negating players skill because it imbalances the game is a good thing.

You remove standard progression, and you remove the incentive to play well and get anything beyond a 2-1 snorer. You honestly think rewarding the player who won 4-0 the same as the one who won 1-0 is "fair"?

Your version of fair, every time you talk about it, seems to be more about making sure you don't have to get beat by the same players who are better than you, and prefer making the game fix your skill level rather than. well, frankly "getting gud" like normal people playing a multiplayer game.

rez has no spp gain for a reason, because its for a specific type of tournament. There is almost nothing served by a carebear rez league where everyone gets to be same same no matter how much they suck. Players would get bored and quit in droves if even 1 of your various suggestions were ever made the main stream.

First you wanted to allow unlimited concessions, then you wanted to make every game a 50/50 chance regardless of skill (not team progression, player skill), and now you want to make sure no one gets there fee-fees hurt by having inferior teams due to deaths or progression?

What next, should we remove the randomness of the die.... wait we tried that...

Maybe we should instead talk about the games balance, where some teams (skaven, wood elves) are very good teams balanced out ONLY because of the progression issues with replacing players? Rez leagues with normal progression would be dominated by skaven and wood elves, rez leagues with your suggested progression would be dominated by teams whose best players are hard to level.

But as long as everything is fair, and the bad players can keep up with the good ones without having to learn skill, who cares about actual balance, right?

@VoodooMike said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

captain melodrama, then don't play (...) You sound like someone who (...)

Why being rude ? Was just saying "at least" is not ok for all of those who wants to play without progression.

Nobody's claiming against your proposal as an option.

With love

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Equal progression, or lack thereof, has no effect on this whatsoever. I'm fine with either.

It's entirely relevant to why tournaments don't use SPP for development (and why they tend to be rez). Since you wanted to go into "how it is" I wanted to add the more relevant "why it is". "How it is" represents nothing more than a restatement of tradition.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

The point of res without progression in a ladder is to guarantee that, when you spin, you'll always come up against a relatively equal team.

I think you may be overstating that theory, my friend... that's what you feel the point is, but certainly not the point any of us who have been lobbying for rez for years feel it is. It's also predicated on the idea that all teams are "equal" if their TV is the same, which we know from the data is totally untrue.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Aren't something like 90% of games on the Cyanide client in private leagues? I may be completely wrong, and I have no reference for this but I'm sure I read it somewhere.

Keep in mind that the largest private leagues are, themselves, open play ladders... they're just not COL or CCL. The real question is, thus, what proportion of play is done in MM ladders vs. tournaments/scheduled leagues... and there's really no question about that: on merit of nothing more than the time and effort required to arrange a scheduled game, we can say for certain the majority of games played online are being played in open ladders with some form of at-the-moment matchmaking, be it an automated MM or a challenge system.

I highly doubt the 90% figure, personally.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Oh of course they don't have to, and I've said a couple of times that my own preference is that they not be. Res also does not have to be paired with progression.

It actually does need to be paired with progression in BB2 for allowing access to rez for non-LE coaches to make any sense. They chose to make rez available as part of the free feature updates, but the team editor requires LE. Thus, non-LE coaches can't create teams other than the simple 1M gold basic teams, and playing non-progression rez with freshly made teams is not going to be a niche that appeals to... well.. almost anyone.

It does make sense, however, if progression exists... as it means that non-LE players could take part in rez leagues with the races they've purchased for non-LE BB2.

@bzl-eleven said in Enable SPP gain in Rez Ladders:

Finally, I should note that this is not for any sort of official Cyanide ladders but only for private leagues. I understand that it is a little bit unfair to restrict a league only to people who own the latest version of the game. That happens in almost every league eventually though (how many people still play their league games in BB1?) and shouldn't be a disqualifier for any particular feature.

It's also not what Cyanide/Focus chose to do when they decided on which features would be provided free for existing owners of BB2. If they want to rescind the availability of rez to non-LE coaches then you can certainly make a case for it, but since they've provided that access it's clear they meant for progression (in whatever format) to be available in rez leagues at the very least as an option.

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