Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!

Could we please get rid of this? Or at least make it optional.

As of now, it's hard to play a competitive Halfling team. (Don't laugh, some of us actually enjoy playing Halflings competitively 😉 ) You need a deep bench, you need lots of Team Re-Rolls. And even if you get that, you end up facing developed teams, i.e 1300 TV teams with Block and Mighty Blow and Tackle.

It's all fine and dandy to face teams like that, but facing them when you are around 1000TV and you just kicked off the team, is not benefiting the Halfling experience. You can add +300k once the Halfling team has reached 1500TV, then it doesn't matter much. 🙂

Thanks for hearing me out. See you lads on the pitch!

last edited by Enarion

I second this wholeheartedly.

And I'd also like to propose an alternative for the +300k TV rule:
Allow Halflings to roster the Chef for 100k. If people want to play +100k up all the time, let them. 300k is way too much, though. At least for a fresh team, just like Enarion pointed out.

last edited by Isarnwolf

A fixed inducement bonuses assigned per tier, or race is what it needs (the same way as it's done on some tournaments IRL), not this... crazy thing. Like, Tier3 teams (Flings, Gobbos, Ogres perhaps) always get 200k gold for inducements for free each match, PLUS whatever additional inducements they can get due to diff in teams' TVs (ok, that could be changed while they develop, like starting from 1500TV they would be granted only with 100k for free, and so on). Tier2 teams get 100k for free, etc. For private leagues it should be implemented as fully customizable feature.

last edited by Mori-Mori

As someone who plays pretty much only Throw Team mate teams, Halflings are my true love.

Enarion is spot on that this 300 extra is killing alot of my teams. You are facing people who in reality you shouldnt face and they tear you apart.

I have been lucky in the past and been able to throw a few over their heads to score and such, but the toll it takes on the team often kills it.

I think that it is by far a mistake, and only punishes the halflings.

@Isarnwolf said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

I second this wholeheartedly.

And I'd also like to propose an alternative for the +300k TV rule:
Allow Halflings to roster the Chef for 100k. If people want to play +100k up all the time, let them. 300k is way too much, though. At least for a fresh team, just like Enarion pointed out.

That could work as well and a good suggestion, but having a Master Chef on the roster might be too powerful.

@Mori-Mori said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

A fixed inducement bonuses assigned per tier, or race is what it needs (the same way as it's done on some tournaments IRL), not this... crazy thing. Like, Tier3 teams (Flings, Gobbos, Ogres perhaps) always get 200k gold for inducements for free each match, PLUS whatever additional inducements they can get due to diff in teams' TVs (ok, that could be changed while they develop, like starting from 1500TV they would be granted only with 100k for free, and so on). Tier2 teams get 100k for free, etc. For private leagues it should be implemented as fully customizable feature.

Fine suggestion, however, I think free inducements, is a bit too much. Coaching flings and Gobbos is suppose to be challenging. That's part of their charm.

@skybluemonty said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

As someone who plays pretty much only Throw Team mate teams, Halflings are my true love.

Enarion is spot on that this 300 extra is killing alot of my teams. You are facing people who in reality you shouldnt face and they tear you apart.

I have been lucky in the past and been able to throw a few over their heads to score and such, but the toll it takes on the team often kills it.

I think that it is by far a mistake, and only punishes the halflings.

Cheers Monty, for the input. I talked briefly to Netheos concerning this and maybe next week they will change it. I said we could give the "at 1500TV add +300TV", so between 1000-1490TV no extra TV added to your Team Value in matchmaking. Naturally, we need to test this out, which brings a heavy burden on us stunty coaches... i.e. try to get a stunty team above 1500TV. chuckles

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

That could work as well and a good suggestion, but having a Master Chef on the roster might be too powerful.

I can guarantee a rostered chef would not make halflings suck significantly less. You could let them roster a chef, take negatraits off their trees, and give them 200k of free inducement cash every match and they'd still have no hope of reaching tier 1 performance.

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

Fine suggestion, however, I think free inducements, is a bit too much. Coaching flings and Gobbos is suppose to be challenging. That's part of their charm.

You can create your own challenge if you want a challenge. Making them more competitive in open play can only improve the overall demographics... if you want "classic" challenge you can just not spend the extra inducement cash, or not roster a chef, or whatever else.

@VoodooMike said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

That could work as well and a good suggestion, but having a Master Chef on the roster might be too powerful.

I can guarantee a rostered chef would not make halflings suck significantly less. You could let them roster a chef, take negatraits off their trees, and give them 200k of free inducement cash every match and they'd still have no hope of reaching tier 1 performance.

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

Fine suggestion, however, I think free inducements, is a bit too much. Coaching flings and Gobbos is suppose to be challenging. That's part of their charm.

You can create your own challenge if you want a challenge. Making them more competitive in open play can only improve the overall demographics... if you want "classic" challenge you can just not spend the extra inducement cash, or not roster a chef, or whatever else.

All true, VoodooMike. However, it's a question of whether we want it to be easier or stick to the rules as close as possible. The Treemen already have the Loner negatrait removed. However, it would be nice if they implement the Timberrr rule (which modifies the standing up roll by 1 for every friendly player adjacent and not in a tackle zone), only works for the Halfling team though.

I think we can all agree though that the +300TV to a new Fling team is not ideal.

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

it would be nice if they implement the Timberrr rule (which modifies the standing up roll by 1 for every friendly player adjacent and not in a tackle zone), only works for the Halfling team though.

That'd be lovely indeed.

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

All true, VoodooMike. However, it's a question of whether we want it to be easier or stick to the rules as close as possible.

Well, we've got the Bret roster and alterations to human and orc rosters (some reverted) and stadium enhancements and ageing... I'm not sure BB2 is concerned with changing the rules.. I'd say we want it to be more accessible and balanced, with the option of disabling anything that is non-standard for folks who want to play "pure" BB in their private leagues.

Besides, if halflings still suck with modification how can we say anything they were modified with was too powerful? They don't suck enough? Like... what metric do we use for sufficient suckage?

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

I think we can all agree though that the +300TV to a new Fling team is not ideal.

For sure... I opposed it before LE came out... with a graph and everything, and I hate graphs. Calculating the inducement pool needed to make them almost competitive with tier 1 teams and giving them that much free inducement cash at the start of each match wouldn't be a terrible thing.. I'd still rather full TVPlus applied to open MM since that would handle that divide on its own without special casing for specific teams 😉

This post is deleted!

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

@Mori-Mori said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

A fixed inducement bonuses assigned per tier, or race is what it needs (the same way as it's done on some tournaments IRL), not this... crazy thing. Like, Tier3 teams (Flings, Gobbos, Ogres perhaps) always get 200k gold for inducements for free each match, PLUS whatever additional inducements they can get due to diff in teams' TVs (ok, that could be changed while they develop, like starting from 1500TV they would be granted only with 100k for free, and so on). Tier2 teams get 100k for free, etc. For private leagues it should be implemented as fully customizable feature.

Fine suggestion, however, I think free inducements, is a bit too much. Coaching flings and Gobbos is suppose to be challenging. That's part of their charm.

I have a strong suspicion it will be hard to make them competitive by just giving them 200k of inducements, so they will be still pretty challenging to coach. Checking some statistics on how do they perform on those tournaments may provide some hints. Those are not exact numbers, also, I don't remember what numbers were mentioned back there, it's just to convey a general idea, so they can be lowered if needed. I'm not sure whether applying those to COL is a good idea, but such feature would be a great addition to custom leagues/competitions, for sure.

@Enarion said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

However, it's a question of whether we want it to be easier or stick to the rules as close as possible.

We also have "trump ace of all rules" - a league Commissioner may change rules any way he wants, which Cyanide uses all the way. And, as mentioned, this approach actually being used on some BB tournaments already, so it's worth to be considered.

last edited by Mori-Mori
Community Manager

Hi guys,

I discussed with Cyanide and we can tweak the +150/+300TV in matchmaking (only in ladders) for Goblins/Halflings without updating the client. But we can only change the values (150 and 300). Sadly we can't apply it only above 1500TV.

Given your feedback, we're ready to delete this "feature" as it seems to handicap more than strengthen the teams we wanted to help. Does anyone want to defend this feature before we remove it? We don't want to read feedback asking its comeback once deleted.

last edited by Netheos

Hi, @Netheos.

Sounds great, at least the current thing is removed, it's good. Regarding this part:

I discussed with Cyanide and we can tweak the +150/+300TV in matchmaking (only in ladders) for Goblins/Halflings without updating the client. But we can only change the values (150 and 300). Sadly we can't apply it only above 1500TV.

..if I got it right, that's what I mentioned above (handing them off free inducements each match)? If that's it, I would insist of getting opinions from more experienced coaches on this (what will be appropriate values and for what teams etc), first, to account for all possible implications, so we won't end with another balance breaking tweak again. Don't take my opinion at a face value, I don't want to bear a sole responsibility for all consequences ))

last edited by Mori-Mori

Personally i was interested in this feature, but only played a few games with them in LE.
.
Obviously Chief is their only real advantage and they will mostly not have it in ladders if you delete the feature.

Some have spoken to allow them to buy the chief in their roster, is that on the table ? It would maybe sastisfy everybody ?

Or maybe drop it from 300 to 100 ?

Community Manager

@Mori-Mori said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

..if I got it right, that's what I mentioned above (handing them off free inducements each match)? If that's it, I would insist of getting opinions from more experienced coaches on this (what will be appropriate values and for what teams etc), first, to account for all possible implications, so we won't end with another balance breaking tweak again. Don't take my opinion at a face value, I don't want to bear a sole responsibility for all consequences ))

No, it was about applying the current system (bonus TV in MM for halflings/goblins), but only above 1500TV. That was a suggestion from Enarion, who is clearly an experienced coach 🙂

But it's not doable. We can only delete the feature or tweak the value of the TV bonuses in MM. Which isn't a solution.

Community Manager

@ungern said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

Obviously Chief is their only real advantage and they will mostly not have it in ladders if you delete the feature.

Well that's the core of the discussion I had with Enarion:

Most Halflings fresh teams will start around 850TV (with 150k in the bank), which is already enough petty cash against a fresh standard team (1000TV) to buy an halfling chef (100k).

Adding 300TV to the hafling team looking for a match in matchmaking started as a good idea (it was a suggestion from players), but at low TV, the first skills taken by a fresh team are usually block and dodge, which are very powerful and more impactful than their equivalent in gold.

Meaning a 1000TV halfling team facing a 1300TV standard team will have to deal with 300TV of very strong skills (block and dodge mainly, which are very powerful compared to their prices in TV) with 300k inducements (which are most of the time not worth their price in gold) and no gained skills. The same applies to goblins.

That's why this feature, which started as a bonus for flings and goblins, seems to actually handicap them.

It's not true anymore at higher TVs, hence Enarion's suggestion to apply the bonus only above 1500TV, but sadly it's not possible technically.

Some have spoken to allow them to buy the chief in their roster, is that on the table ? It would maybe sastisfy everybody ?
Or maybe drop it from 300 to 100 ?

Rostering inducements if off the table for now. Beyond the balancing aspect, it's also more work because it affects the UI, which means a client update on 3 platforms. Not planned for now.

The halfling chef already costs 100k for hafling team.

last edited by Netheos

@Netheos said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

The halfling chef already costs 100k for hafling team.

I know, it's a misunderstanding. My english is broken.

Je parlais du surcalcul de la TV des halfings pour le MM. Si il était baissé à 100 ça pourrait réduire le problème soulevé par Enarion et les autres, tout en en laissant au coach halfing de meilleures probas de pouvoir acheter le chef.

last edited by ungern

I like the idea of removing it, but my only fear is removing this, in combination with the 500TV matchmaking limit could cause issues. Which I'm sure was probably the original intention of the extra TV to begin with. If you have a fling team for example that has a tree out for a game (and you didn't reroll the team because you're crazy), their TV and searchable range is going to be well below 1K

If Cyanide feels that matchmaking wouldn't get to the point of it being too hard to find a match, I'm all for getting rid of it.

As a stunty coach, I think the 300TV difference in matchmaking is perfectly fine. The only problem it causes is, if someone wants to make a 1000TV halfling or goblin roster (which many coaches who are not familiar with the teams do) it then makes it difficult to find a proper matchup, whereas those who seek to make incredibly small TV teams would find it near impossible to find a proper match without it. If it was optional, that would be a solution to both, though I don't know how feasible that is.

@Ravenpoe121 said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

As a stunty coach, I think the 300TV difference in matchmaking is perfectly fine. The only problem it causes is, if someone wants to make a 1000TV halfling or goblin roster (which many coaches who are not familiar with the teams do) it then makes it difficult to find a proper matchup, whereas those who seek to make incredibly small TV teams would find it near impossible to find a proper match without it. If it was optional, that would be a solution to both, though I don't know how feasible that is.

I am quite familiar with the Halfling team, and I like to start my fling teams with 15 players, 4 rrs, apoth. And I tend to perform quite well with them (just to let you know I am running that roster to be competitive with them).

In my experience coaching flings & gobbos, min/max TV is not the way to go with these teams. I will happily scum a Chef/bribe if I am able with these teams' Treasuries.

Hence, I vote to remove the +300TV for matchmaking or at least make it optional.

@bcraig said in Stop The Fling Suffering - End the +300TV Madness!:

I like the idea of removing it, but my only fear is removing this, in combination with the 500TV matchmaking limit could cause issues.

The +300TV made me face a 1800+TV Nurgle team I believe, as a rookie Fling team. Removing it would stop that madness.

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