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~fluid gunplay is fun~

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Long-time CoD4/CoD2 fanatic, Insurgency lover, competitive fps player. This is gonna be great.

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posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm read more

What's wrong with delaying when it's to work and improve upon the project? I don't get why there's a hurry to get a game out, except perhaps budget, publisher deadlines or the whole team being straight up fed up working on a game for too long.

But fan expectations and impatience? That's petty. Just have faith in the devs, until perhaps they show signs of disinterest/laziness/slacking off.

Delaying games usually has very positive outcomes, providing the devs are passionate about their project and the additional time is well used, if course. Which nothing points against so far, so I'm glad to read this. Wish the team all the best in making this game a shiny title. Keep up the valiant effort guys.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

Slow TTK =
You must trust your own aiming skill.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.
Some people will wander off by themselves.
Some people will rush to the objective.

It's funny you say that. While not exactly the best option, and not really viable in an actual competitive setting, in Insurgency 2014 I tend to rush a lot and succeed because: probably these players I outplay aren't always the fastest triggers, and I'm a fast trigger myself (and obviously, I play smart enough as well). I mean I tend to go solo regardless because it's fun and much more often than not, I get stuff done.

It doesn't quite happen when the opposite team has actually smart and skilled players, and/or I'm kinda carrying my team alone. But then I adapt and play more carefully.

So yeah not quite sure these last two lines apply only to slow TTK.

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.

Not sure I agree with this either. You saying one can consistently be alright without teammates vs ambushes? In competitive as well? It can happen, sure, but consistently? You don't always have higher aiming skill than your attackers. If they're at least as good as you, they will more likely than not win the fight, if they take you by surprise. Kind of bogus.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@cyoce said in We want the one hit kills.:

@coachon COD4 with stopping power is still 4 shot kills on many SMGs and assault rifles.

I disagree. At long range, sure, overall, CoD4 has a more varying TTK with its guns. SMGs are indeed weak quick over some distance. But most other guns are 2 or 3 hits most of the time. My point was more about CoD4 hardcore being lower TTK though. You're talking about softcore. The rest about hardcore I've already said (thus agree), although in that large post that probably not everyone bothered to read entirely.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@cyoce insurgency 2014 has higher ttk than CoD4 hardcore, you still need more than 1 hit to kill in many situations. CoD4 hardcore rarely requires more than 1. I'm talking without involving juggernaut or armor, and with stopping power in CoD4 btw. I don't consider CoD4 very fun without using that. (It's the default damage balance in promod (competitive, with no perks involved), if that means anything.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

So as I've said a few times I love CoD4, it has a very similar TTK to Insurgency 2014 (sorta low) but to insist on how too low a TTK isn't that good, and to agree with post above, I just have to retell how CoD4's hardcore mode goes:

Reduced health. Most weapons 1-shot kill in any body part. With a tiny bit of smarts and skill, it becomes easy to mow down anyone you see. Even those that are camping because my aim is often better.

Like @jensiii said, playing pistol only becomes possible and easy. I can even snipe people across map with it, one shot. And it's not just pub noobs that run around in the open, the great players too (granted, those kill me a lot in return as well).

Now, was it completely bad? No... Was it fun? Sure! Always fun to play something OP and get easy kills. Is it fun in the long run, though? For noobs that enjoy cheap kills all day or the type of person that would hack, yes. These people would get their kick without an ounce of shame. I, however found it gets old quick. So I try using less effective guns to challenge myself, if only to style on them a bit. Honestly very fun to pull off tough stuff, and doesn't feel cheap cause I'm already at a disadvantage... But I digress. In the scope of a competitive game (where skill and challenge are of matter), this kind of leisurely OP fun doesn't quite fit in.

Now how close to Insurgency 2014 was that CoD4 hardcore mode example? Aside from even lower TTK (in CoD4), size of maps and visibility of players, pretty much identical. So give and take what you want from this, but I just mean I've experienced super low TTK both with noobs and very good players, and it still is overall too easy and not fun. Unbalanced I'd say.

Sure the good players had the same advantages I had, but to follow on that unbalanced claim, ever played Smash Bros. with a higher damage multiplier? Or with let's say just 1 type of item? Is it fair? Yes, both players have the same advantages. Is it fun? Yes great fun can be had with that sort of ruleset. Is it balanced, is it fun in the long run? To me, no. I quickly get tired of getting knocked about at the 1st opportunity. I quickly miss normal rules where I can actually put some thought into my gameplay. Kind of like has been discussed before, this situation brings the "promotes target acquisition skill over all" into play. I'm surprising myself as I realize how similar this is to what's being discussed here. I could've used Sudden Death (300% damage, mostly insta-kill) as an example to get even closer. You just want to quickly land a hit, no matter what it is. Characters in Smash can dodge and block, but so can you hide and take cover in INS.

This makes me realize one more thing: what lower TTK really does, is make gameplay faster (duh? Lemme elaborate). Sudden Death in Smash aims to decide a winner super quickly, to slice once and for all because a fight has been ongoing for too long without a winner. It effectively removes one thing that benefits good gameplay: time. When you have time to think about your moves, you can apply a decent amount of strategy (time meaning number of mistakes where you take damage here). When that time frame becomes so small, it effectively increases risk and punishment for mistakes and significantly decreases the time one has to react, leaving it now increasingly more to luck than reactivity.

In Insurgency (or really any good FPS), a "normal" TTK should overall allow you to be able to make very small mistakes (i.e.: survive being shot by a player you took by surprise, but not survive running in front of them). In games with a higher TTK, you're kind of encouraged to play smarter, in order to keep your HP high. Obviously, in all cases you play smarter to not die, but that's because the time to kill is overall still quick regardless. It's still kind of within a "fast kill" range, you're not a bullet-sponge boss. This makes me think of MMORPG raids. There isn't as much mechanical skill involved anymore, as a good old, well planned tactic, because the TTK is now so high. I could even see the overall long-term battle in an FPS as high TTK. The objectives are all slower goals to attain, and the gunfights/encounters are much quicker events. All counting towards the end goal, but in smaller increments. You could then say that, very generally put, the objectives require much more planning than the individual encouters. But again, I'm kind of stretching this out a bit...

Right now I'm just trying to see the extremes and how tactical skill vs reactionary skill fluctuate in between. I'm just theorizing at this point but I think I sort of make sense? In any case this might be a good subject for an essay, which I won't be attempting (tonight).

So to go back a bit to the initial point: how does too low a TTK hinder gameplay versatility? Well I just think there's a point at which the options you have become too limited. Where the gameplay starts to flatten, where there are too few opportunities for turnarounds. I think it is healthy for any game to provide a minimum of forgiveness for mistakes, and the lower the TTK you go, the closer you get to that minimum.You could even make a parallel with a game of chess as an example of the other extreme, where "opportunities for turnarounds" are initially very very numerous. Same goes with a whole Insurgency round, where, similarly to a game of chess, every smaller action counts towards the end goal, and there are opportunities for comebacks.

Now with all that blabbering said and done, what is a good TTK for Insurgency? Matter of preference? Maybe. Appears to be the case, from this ongoing discussion. What should it be? Whatever the devs want it to be. What do I want it to be? I think how it is in Insurgency 2014 fits that game very well, in regards to balance to tactics and aiming skill. I personally don't like to spend too long on a target, I want it to be quick, but don't want to feel OP either. And I want to have time to react, if only to turn around. That means mostly no to 1 hit kills unless you hit torso/head and the target is unarmored. And so far this seems to be pretty much the case in Sandstorm, except for a few thing that could need a fix like movement speed or heavy armor.

~getting off-topic a bit~
I'm personally a fan of the faster movement speed, but it doesn't fit too well in this game, gives too much of an advantage in many situations. As I said in an earlier paragraph, allowing mistakes is good, but this fast movement speed may be a little forgiving, allowing to escape otherwise very dangerous situations. As has been suggested previously quite a few times, making acceleration longer and making it so getting hit slows you down sound like good solutions. They could keep the max speed though. It is fast but doesn't seem unrealistic. It's a good sprint speed. The fact that that sprint speed can be held for so long (indefinitely?) may be the problem here. Otherwise I'm thinking the devs have chosen to make this top speed this fast, so that traveling entire maps wouldn't be as long. Which I honestly like. It just needs to actually have drawbacks (slowed down when hit and sprinting for too long, and longer acceleration). Ugh, and with this I went off topic. Am tired and just spouting thoughts at this point... Will copy this into an appropriate thread tomorrow.

Anywho guess I'm done...
tl;dr: "One hit kills" kills gameplay versatility.
Most relevant to read: paragraphs 1 to 5, and second-to last paragraph. Can skip the rest.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

Apart from the difficulty thing I think you already agreed with me. I mean the example you state was with armor, right? Either you couldn't aim or that bot had heavy armor. I have no problem downing bots in non-heavy apparal. Agreed with everything else though.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

Just want to re-state that while I don't think TTK should be lowered, I like how it is at the moment, I don't like requiring more than 4 bullets to kill. 1 shot with everything is bad IMO, as I stated before, and 2-3 bullets is a nice middle ground. I don't want to drop immediately, but I still want to drop fast. High TTK has its pros, just another way to play a shooter. However I'm not into insurgency for that. Like I said, aside from hitreg issues, heavy armor perhaps needs a balance fix, it might be a bit too good, but otherwise when I shoot other tiers of armor, people drop fast and that's great.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

I don't seem to understand your point there. I agree with all that you said. Makes sense, obvious even. But it doesn't negate the point that running in the open is dangerous. Which was all I meant. Of course you can play smart and not run in the open. Point was simply that you die quick when you show yourself wothout caution. If you play well and avoid showing yourself in the open, then of course, you're gonna be safer. Cautious and smart play is rewarding and the opposite is also true. I wasn't debating that. I was merely agreeing that you're not always as safe as you think. The maps are large and filled with shooting spots. People are on the lookout and will kill you quick if they see you, especially because the weapons are appropriately lethal.

Having played enough, you learn to recognize and avoid varying spots depending on map flow, but flanking and surprises are part of the game so you can't always be safe, even if you play smart. But that's obvious and besides the point. And honestly on Panj, there are routes on the sides, that much is true, but the last bit to spawns are still pretty open, leaving you free to kill if a camper is well seated in there. Not arguing against having ways to counter that btw, plenty options to cover your ass. I'm again just agreeing that when you don't know much where to go/where to cover from/what to do, you better hope you're lucky. That said not sure what's going on with the PTSD thing going on lol. Hadn't realized the emphasis they put until you compiled them.

I'm putting a little emphasis on this because you seem to imply that since there's always a way out of trouble, you never ever do. Playing well gets you far, but it wouldn't be a challenge if there weren't any uncertainties at play. Looking at this from a competitive lens, one thing you need to do during a round is to eliminate uncertainties, so that your team can have the upper hand. But again... That much is obvious, I digress.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - Technical Feedback read more

@benz said in Why is there no tagging in this so called "hardcore" game?:



This is just stupid. Sniper shot and he keeps running like nothing happened 😃

Don't wanna be a party pooper but that seems like a miss. You shot just behind him, and the mist you see is dust from the ground. Happens to me a lot in CoD4 and INS2. Frustrating on the spot, but this video evidence should make it obvious to you... Not saying there isn't bad reg, I've seen the bad reg/bullet sponge videos and it's very real. Just saying you may have misjudged this one ^

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

That's true and I feel that INS2 was indeed pretty immersive, but Sandstorm doesn't feel too far off the mark either. Right now I'm waiting for some optimisation to actually see and enjoy the game, too laggy for me. But what people need to understand is that the game was never really slow-paced. It's fine if they could find their way at their pace, like I agree being patient and taking your time to get somewhere goes long ways vs running in, but at some point there's an encounter, and I can't imagine anyone doing very well with that kind of passive mindset. Must die a lot and I can't imagine it being very fun for them. And there (must be) other games they would enjoy better, despite this one providing immersion that they enjoy.

I wasn't implying he was a roleplayer either, but the game definitely was always fast-paced, rewarding fast reaction and decisions. And that their approach to the game would fit more into a roleplay/more friendly situation. And by the way I kinda lost track of who said what, I'm talking more generally, since the complaints seem to be general. I get that a lot in CoD4 (which, like I said a couple times around here, has many similarities with the previous Insurgency, believe it or not), I would play fast and react quick and people would complain that I wasn't letting them time to prepare. That's not the point of the game, you shouldn't be here if you expect that.

Speaking more generally now:

It just feels a bit delusionnal to play Insurgency expecting "relax" moments, casual captures. It's fine if players could somehow find a way to enjoy it that way, but they should also be well aware that they're playing the game "their way" and not expect it to cater to that inherently. Reminds me a bit of CoD4, often people would like to play say, pistols only, sniper only. Thats fine, but don't get mad if people aren't playing along, they don't have to. Not the best example, but it's a bit the same with Insurgency. Some people don't realize that their playstyle isn't best suited for that game. Now I haven't looked myself for the dev's actual thoughts on this (what the game's focus is), but the competitive tournaments videos some peeps posted around speak for themselves for me. It's very reminescent of CoD4 promod and CSGO competitive, although without the arcade gunplay of CSGO, and the faster paced movement of CoD4.

That said I'm not saying either "gtfo if you aren't happy", if they can find ways to enjoy the game like they did in INS2, great! I'm just asking them to be aware of the overall direction of the game, and to not expect something it is not. It was never a slow-paced game, just play for what it is. One thing I'll admit, though, is that it seems even faster-paced at the moment. The running speed is fast. That might throw off people used to less. I prefer faster movement myself, but I think slower movement fits better with this kind of objective-based game.