Best posts made by Coachon
posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

Must say I agree much. The game is great fun at the moment, but we expect obvious fixes and the devs are actively working on all that and that's great. But two weeks? Damn, I'm worried as well, for the same reasons as you. Maybe they'll pull it off and we don't know enough of how it is in the dev office/how quick things are moving, but maybe they won't, and I don't want that to happen :'c

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

So as I've said a few times I love CoD4, it has a very similar TTK to Insurgency 2014 (sorta low) but to insist on how too low a TTK isn't that good, and to agree with post above, I just have to retell how CoD4's hardcore mode goes:

Reduced health. Most weapons 1-shot kill in any body part. With a tiny bit of smarts and skill, it becomes easy to mow down anyone you see. Even those that are camping because my aim is often better.

Like @jensiii said, playing pistol only becomes possible and easy. I can even snipe people across map with it, one shot. And it's not just pub noobs that run around in the open, the great players too (granted, those kill me a lot in return as well).

Now, was it completely bad? No... Was it fun? Sure! Always fun to play something OP and get easy kills. Is it fun in the long run, though? For noobs that enjoy cheap kills all day or the type of person that would hack, yes. These people would get their kick without an ounce of shame. I, however found it gets old quick. So I try using less effective guns to challenge myself, if only to style on them a bit. Honestly very fun to pull off tough stuff, and doesn't feel cheap cause I'm already at a disadvantage... But I digress. In the scope of a competitive game (where skill and challenge are of matter), this kind of leisurely OP fun doesn't quite fit in.

Now how close to Insurgency 2014 was that CoD4 hardcore mode example? Aside from even lower TTK (in CoD4), size of maps and visibility of players, pretty much identical. So give and take what you want from this, but I just mean I've experienced super low TTK both with noobs and very good players, and it still is overall too easy and not fun. Unbalanced I'd say.

Sure the good players had the same advantages I had, but to follow on that unbalanced claim, ever played Smash Bros. with a higher damage multiplier? Or with let's say just 1 type of item? Is it fair? Yes, both players have the same advantages. Is it fun? Yes great fun can be had with that sort of ruleset. Is it balanced, is it fun in the long run? To me, no. I quickly get tired of getting knocked about at the 1st opportunity. I quickly miss normal rules where I can actually put some thought into my gameplay. Kind of like has been discussed before, this situation brings the "promotes target acquisition skill over all" into play. I'm surprising myself as I realize how similar this is to what's being discussed here. I could've used Sudden Death (300% damage, mostly insta-kill) as an example to get even closer. You just want to quickly land a hit, no matter what it is. Characters in Smash can dodge and block, but so can you hide and take cover in INS.

This makes me realize one more thing: what lower TTK really does, is make gameplay faster (duh? Lemme elaborate). Sudden Death in Smash aims to decide a winner super quickly, to slice once and for all because a fight has been ongoing for too long without a winner. It effectively removes one thing that benefits good gameplay: time. When you have time to think about your moves, you can apply a decent amount of strategy (time meaning number of mistakes where you take damage here). When that time frame becomes so small, it effectively increases risk and punishment for mistakes and significantly decreases the time one has to react, leaving it now increasingly more to luck than reactivity.

In Insurgency (or really any good FPS), a "normal" TTK should overall allow you to be able to make very small mistakes (i.e.: survive being shot by a player you took by surprise, but not survive running in front of them). In games with a higher TTK, you're kind of encouraged to play smarter, in order to keep your HP high. Obviously, in all cases you play smarter to not die, but that's because the time to kill is overall still quick regardless. It's still kind of within a "fast kill" range, you're not a bullet-sponge boss. This makes me think of MMORPG raids. There isn't as much mechanical skill involved anymore, as a good old, well planned tactic, because the TTK is now so high. I could even see the overall long-term battle in an FPS as high TTK. The objectives are all slower goals to attain, and the gunfights/encounters are much quicker events. All counting towards the end goal, but in smaller increments. You could then say that, very generally put, the objectives require much more planning than the individual encouters. But again, I'm kind of stretching this out a bit...

Right now I'm just trying to see the extremes and how tactical skill vs reactionary skill fluctuate in between. I'm just theorizing at this point but I think I sort of make sense? In any case this might be a good subject for an essay, which I won't be attempting (tonight).

So to go back a bit to the initial point: how does too low a TTK hinder gameplay versatility? Well I just think there's a point at which the options you have become too limited. Where the gameplay starts to flatten, where there are too few opportunities for turnarounds. I think it is healthy for any game to provide a minimum of forgiveness for mistakes, and the lower the TTK you go, the closer you get to that minimum.You could even make a parallel with a game of chess as an example of the other extreme, where "opportunities for turnarounds" are initially very very numerous. Same goes with a whole Insurgency round, where, similarly to a game of chess, every smaller action counts towards the end goal, and there are opportunities for comebacks.

Now with all that blabbering said and done, what is a good TTK for Insurgency? Matter of preference? Maybe. Appears to be the case, from this ongoing discussion. What should it be? Whatever the devs want it to be. What do I want it to be? I think how it is in Insurgency 2014 fits that game very well, in regards to balance to tactics and aiming skill. I personally don't like to spend too long on a target, I want it to be quick, but don't want to feel OP either. And I want to have time to react, if only to turn around. That means mostly no to 1 hit kills unless you hit torso/head and the target is unarmored. And so far this seems to be pretty much the case in Sandstorm, except for a few thing that could need a fix like movement speed or heavy armor.

~getting off-topic a bit~
I'm personally a fan of the faster movement speed, but it doesn't fit too well in this game, gives too much of an advantage in many situations. As I said in an earlier paragraph, allowing mistakes is good, but this fast movement speed may be a little forgiving, allowing to escape otherwise very dangerous situations. As has been suggested previously quite a few times, making acceleration longer and making it so getting hit slows you down sound like good solutions. They could keep the max speed though. It is fast but doesn't seem unrealistic. It's a good sprint speed. The fact that that sprint speed can be held for so long (indefinitely?) may be the problem here. Otherwise I'm thinking the devs have chosen to make this top speed this fast, so that traveling entire maps wouldn't be as long. Which I honestly like. It just needs to actually have drawbacks (slowed down when hit and sprinting for too long, and longer acceleration). Ugh, and with this I went off topic. Am tired and just spouting thoughts at this point... Will copy this into an appropriate thread tomorrow.

Anywho guess I'm done...
tl;dr: "One hit kills" kills gameplay versatility.
Most relevant to read: paragraphs 1 to 5, and second-to last paragraph. Can skip the rest.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@tuliottr said in We want the one hit kills.:


INS was fun because it was the first FPS I played that emphasized positioning and strategy over aim.

exactly. I think that's the charm of Insurgency: it never prioritized skill and competition, but immersion. It is so fucking frustrating to hit a guy 3 times only for him to turn quickly and spray in my direction and get a lucky headshot. Leave that shit in COD and Battlefield

Beg to differ. Main appeal to insurgency to me was how it rewarded skill, decision making, and teamplay, on top of having a superb immersive environment.

If you value immersion over gameplay, maybe a modded roleplay server, or a game like ARMA would better fit your needs (probably bad suggestions, I don't know much about games with such a focus, save from roleplay servers, but these don't point to any specific game).

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

I share the congratulating sentiment, however not sure how degrading other games helps your point. It may surprise you, but I came to insurgency from CoD4/CoD2, specifically because it had a very similar feel. Or at least a lot of what I looked for and found in these 2 games, I found in Insurgency as well. Most notably: fluid and solid gunplay-- the guns feel responsive and fun to use; focus on skill-- more so in promod where there are no partygame perks; low TTK-- yes, in CoD4 and 2, with most weapons it is 2-hit kills, granted there were no perks involved except stopping power (the true damage balance to enjoy that game imo), and in hardcore, most guns 1-hit kill at most distances, how's that for low TTK? That's something I really enjoyed seeing in Insurgency too; fluid movement around the map-- although that must be the most different thing, moving is pretty slow in insurgency compared to CoD4, but that's not a bad thing at all considering what the game is about. What insurgency offered however, was a much more immersive ambiance/more realism overall, more accessible objective-based gameplay (as in, more players/opportunities to play; in CoD4, promod has been dead for a while), larger maps, and more. But, love it or not, still had this arcade feeling that CoD4 offered. I was still able to run and run and succeed. But only if I played smart, of course. Unlike much more realistic games like Red Orchestra, where heavy camping and much more cautious gameplay is rewarded. Insurgency still promotes cautious play, but in much more short-burst intense ways.

And then I must say I'm sort of with you on CSGO, I despise the aiming and I prefer more versatile movement, BUT that's still mostly personal prefs (tons of players having great aim in that game (although beyond me) must mean something (I'm bad at it)). I feel the game is actually pretty good at what it wants to do. I just figure it's not for me. That said I haven't played much of the more recent CoDs (past WaW), couldn't get into them much. Definitely not what it used to be.

Sooo... yeah. Really wish the best to NWI, this game is shaping up great for sure!

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

Just want to re-state that while I don't think TTK should be lowered, I like how it is at the moment, I don't like requiring more than 4 bullets to kill. 1 shot with everything is bad IMO, as I stated before, and 2-3 bullets is a nice middle ground. I don't want to drop immediately, but I still want to drop fast. High TTK has its pros, just another way to play a shooter. However I'm not into insurgency for that. Like I said, aside from hitreg issues, heavy armor perhaps needs a balance fix, it might be a bit too good, but otherwise when I shoot other tiers of armor, people drop fast and that's great.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

Agreed, great post from MeFirst, very accurate imo. Although aside from correcting benny's "no skill whatsoever" to "actually some skill", it seems to pretty much agree with him anyway.
That said, maybe off-topic, but worth mentioning I feel: at top pro level, in most competitive games/sports, the mechanical skill is already maxed for most and isn't a concern anymore, you just expect the other player to succeed every mechanical action they start. The outcome of the play then comes down to mostly skills 2 and 3. Map awareness, intuition, guessing, mindgames, that's where the top play is at. It comes down to who tricks who, who makes an error first, etc.

Edit: must say I disagree with MeFirst's TTK example though. Benz is spot on, makes no sense if that's about TTK. It rather sounds like a lag/hit reg issue. If it was about heavy armor, then yeah, if the attacker didnt have HA but the other guy did, the attacker was at a disadvantage. Not very unfair though since the vest is visible and you should know about it and all. Whether the vest is OP is another point.

Edit 2: On the very topic of TTK, have you ever played a game like CoD4 on hardcore mode? Where most any guns are 1-shot kill? I personally find it very fun, but it's because it's easy. It's relaxing to not need to aim much and get easy kills.

It baffles me that anyone would think that lower TTK = harder. It's harder for you because you're easier to kill, but as long as you have the first shot (and it's accurate) you're gonna win the gunfight. Really promotes staying hidden. Which is fine. But doesn't the game already feel that way? If I show my face, 7 times out of 10 I get 1 or 2-shot. 3 times out of 10, I live, but I blame that on poor aim or bad reg. Because most times I don't even get hit.
I just believe that the issue is rather with hit reg/lag or heavy armor rather than the current bullet damage/player health.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - Technical Feedback read more

Good find for sure, I was wondering if the sound localization was very bad or limited, but I'm glad this is just a bug. I was confused more than once trying to track footsteps only to realize I was wrong. Otherwise agreed it should be audible enough, but certainly should be masked by gunfire or any realistically louder noise.

In fact, the fact that it is audible prompts attackers to walk instead, which makes it harder to rush in and surprise, as it should.

Also not sure what's wrong with camping when defending, that's the whole point. I'm a big CoD4 player and I despise camping. In TDM. Because it's cheap and easy and not necessary at all for that game mode. In objective-based modes however, it's not only expected but kind of necessary to defend points. I have no reason to complain against it, and all reasons to do it.

Bottom line: in a "do anything you can to win" situation, such as is in objective-based game modes, competitive or casual (all insurgency game modes), you should expect cautious tactics and attempt to counter them. At least I found complaining about it is useless. And it only feels logical to do honestly. You attempt to win or you don't.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@cyoce insurgency 2014 has higher ttk than CoD4 hardcore, you still need more than 1 hit to kill in many situations. CoD4 hardcore rarely requires more than 1. I'm talking without involving juggernaut or armor, and with stopping power in CoD4 btw. I don't consider CoD4 very fun without using that. (It's the default damage balance in promod (competitive, with no perks involved), if that means anything.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

Slow TTK =
You must trust your own aiming skill.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.
Some people will wander off by themselves.
Some people will rush to the objective.

It's funny you say that. While not exactly the best option, and not really viable in an actual competitive setting, in Insurgency 2014 I tend to rush a lot and succeed because: probably these players I outplay aren't always the fastest triggers, and I'm a fast trigger myself (and obviously, I play smart enough as well). I mean I tend to go solo regardless because it's fun and much more often than not, I get stuff done.

It doesn't quite happen when the opposite team has actually smart and skilled players, and/or I'm kinda carrying my team alone. But then I adapt and play more carefully.

So yeah not quite sure these last two lines apply only to slow TTK.

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.

Not sure I agree with this either. You saying one can consistently be alright without teammates vs ambushes? In competitive as well? It can happen, sure, but consistently? You don't always have higher aiming skill than your attackers. If they're at least as good as you, they will more likely than not win the fight, if they take you by surprise. Kind of bogus.

posted in Insurgency: Sandstorm Pre-Order Beta - General Feedback read more

This baffles me as well. Players wanting a game to be what it's not. I agree that there are like, more supportive classes/positions, which allows players to take a less agressive stance at the game, and that is fine. However to not expect requiring aim at all in a shooter? Kind of asking much, there.

Not sure how it is in sandstorm, but my understanding is that there isn't much options anymore for more supportive gameplay? Imo observer/commander sounds like prime support positions. Demolitions/rocket launcher doesn't require much aim but is super useful too. In any case I can't see how you could do well/help your team much without aiming much in the previous game. I always felt very pressed to aim well or else I'd die. Whether I was camping quietly, or right into the fray.

Otherwise I may be misunderstanding what exactly @oldkingcole225 was doing that didn't require aiming in the past. I mean if he feels the game isn't what it was anymore, pretty fair. I'm now just very curious to hear more precisely what they mean by that. How they played the previous game, and what they expect with this one.

Otherwise I can't say I aim for the head very often if at all. I always aim center-mass as well. We were just saying that the head was currently a good counter to the heavy armor.

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