its irritating to know the fact that most of the people that don't like low TTK have barely played insurgency or haven't spent time to understanding its core mechanics.
the mechanics that insurgency 2 had has kept the game alive since launch with a pretty decent playerbase for 4 years compared to other tactical shooters of its caliber. Why drastically change it from the identity it was well known for when it sat well with the community and managed to get a 90% very positive reviews within a span of 4 years?
I can get why some people want high TTK and I know there are certain games that just don't sit so well for low TTK, but why try drastically change something that's been fine for the core playerbase that's been dedicated enough for the past 4 years? Not only just them playing the game, but also even creating community generated content for such an old game-community content that's pretty good looking in game.
@benz I don't know how much I have to say this, but insurgency's fast paced nature is the reason why we want it low TTK. It makes its own identity unique other than tactical shooters in the market. I don't want to play another squad/rising storm 2 clone. I just want the comforts of Insurgency, even as a person who actively enjoys milsim in ARMA 3 and tactical games like SWAT 4 and Ground Branch.
Making it just high TTK would just ruin the action and identity Insurgency is well known for. It's gonna do more harm than good. It'll make insurgency swallowed up by the tactical shooter genre and just be bland.
Even most shooters of the tactical genre are literally low TTK, the only thing that limits them is the fact most aren't close quarters based or have gameplay mechanics that force the player to adapt to a slow paced play style.
Insurgency is not a game primarily focused on aim. Hell, aim is only one thing that makes up your skill Insurgency. It isn't even a major contributor at all. You also need map knowledge. Even me myself, a person who primarily focused on aim even on CS:GO had been fucked over by guys who have superior map knowledge. Even with friends that are better than me aim-wise find themselves getting fucked over in a game like Insurgency. Insurgency encourages you to think not be always braindead focused on aim.
And besides, even with a low TTK, the one with the best aim in a firefight is always guaranteed to win against the person with bad aim.
Lowering TTK will just affect the identity of this franchise for how renowned and tense the game was. What's the point of drastically changing something the franchise is well known for.
You'd need to play Insurgency Source or Day Of Infamy to have a general understanding why low TTK in a tactical game was somehow good. No tactical games haven't seamlessly blended the gameplay mechanics of fast paced combat and tactical understanding like Insurgency. (I'd probably count siege on this one, but it feels casualized in some ways.)
Before you read the rest of my post, let me remind you that I do love this game and I find it a good successor to Insurgency 2014. I find it that the new engine puts out the full potential of the insurgency franchise in the limelight and media outlets all around. Better graphics, refined mechanics, and refined sound design make it a underdog in the FPS genre that shouldn't be underestimated compared to the likes of Battlefield, COD, and R6S. Insurgency Sandstorm might be the definitive tactical shooter barring the lines of Arma and Battlefield this year in good retrospect compared to recent releases.
However, after playing both the alpha and beta and returning to Beta #2 the upcoming release of this game has been making me disappointed and fear the pitfall of insurgency sandstorm.
Now first, I like to discuss my fears with the game first.
What appalls me, disappoints me, and worries me about insurgency sandstorm is considering the fact how insurgency has gone through 3 testing sessions yet the game in its current state right now is still unplayable. This infuriates me especially having gone through these testing sessions especially expecting a major improvement from the alpha but instead expecting almost the same thing with minor/unfinished improvements.
The game is so buggy that I believe it should be delayed. You have so many issues to count from with the game such as hit detection, disappearing player parts in customization, poor performance even after beta #1, MSAA issues, and the list just goes on and on. I thought NWI learned its own lessons from developing Insurgency and Day Of Infamy as those games were known to have buggy launches, but it seems like you guys are repeating the cycle again but instead in a more messier fashion.
Hit detection is just really awful. Even if you have low ping, you'll still have BS moments even in point blank range wondering how the enemy didn't die yet you dumped a whole magazine into him within point blank range.
The render issues are just embarrassing, especially when the game is really close to becoming launched. I expect it by now that this game's rendering of models would be fixed by now because it was an obvious issue in the beta and alpha but it is still unfixed. My setup should be able to load up the game's models instantly just like the other UE4 games I play but instead I have to face pop in for every match.
Performance has been improved nicely compared to Beta #1 and Alpha but it still has gripes and issues. My game tends to stutter and drop to low FPS randomly in intense situations even though I'm running on a overclocked i5 and a GTX 1070 Ti.
The MSAA video setting is broken atm. For some reason it still renders poorly even on Very High. I'm wondering if NWI can implement multi sampling solutions like Squad to have a variety of MSAA settings for user preference and visibility. In Squad the different types of multi sampling work surprisingly well.
I'm sure there are more issues that I haven't discussed yet, but judging by the amount of issues Insurgency Sandstorm has and how far away the release date of this game as a finished product makes me fear and concern the future and integrity of insurgency as a franchise. I don't want Insurgency Sandstorm to launch like post scriptum blowing its hype away in a flash but instead be recognized to a wider audience. This franchise is unique to so many shooters in the market that it needs to be recognized. But the current state this game is in is just really appalling and I'd suggest for a delay. I want this game to succeed but in this state I feel like there needs to be work done.
Now I'm done with my fears, I wanna talk about my main disappointments with this game as an Insurgency Veteran.
Now I get it that this game wants to appeal to a wider audience. However, because NWI is trying to appeal to a wider audience I feel like the core gameplay mechanics and feeling of the game has been dumbed down imo.
I feel like the tension and variety of the previous Insurgency has been removed. The slow TTK, the removal of AP/HP rounds, and the overall feeling of tension from the previous Insurgency feels completely gone. In Insurgency Sandstorm, you can literally mag dump an AK into a heavy armor guy while in Insurgency 2014 you had the ability to equip AP rounds to actually gain an advantage against Heavy Armor guys. Now I'm not including heavy armor guys but also just the damage bullets deal in this game. This game really feels bullet spongy compared to the last game while Insurgency was a game where you typically died from 1-3 shots. Now in Sandstorm you have the ability to take more than 5 shots which is ridiculous. I want the sense of tension and fast paced combat Insurgency always had not the slow paced bullet spongy gameplay Battlefield has. It doesn't feel right at all and it doesn't fit the type of gameplay the Insurgency franchise is well known for.
Now I get why NWI wanted to remove AP/HP rounds from Insurgency Sandstorm because it felt like stopping power in Call Of Duty; That is a completely understandable statement, but why are the targets in the game so bullet spongy? It feels completely different from both Insurgency and Day Of Infamy. Even in Insurgency FMJ rounds still had stopping power against targets. The makarov in Insurgency is well known to be a reliable sidearm even when you use it with just only FMJ rounds.
I want the bullets to deal damage in the game, not feel like I'm shooting .22 LRs against enemies.
The TTK the game tries to aim here feels like trying to be both tactical and fast paced but being slow paced at the same time. It doesn't feel right at all because it doesn't match the near perfect TTK insurgency had on what it was trying to aim for and the type it game it was. It just feels confusing trying to find what kind of play style you wanna really play as when you're dealing with the fact that your bullets are just bullet spongy and the majority of the enemies you're facing against are literal speed demons with heavy armor that take a whole magazine to empty at before they go down.
I don't mean to be harsh to NWI. I admire their games and attention to detail for making such small indie shooters that offer more fun, gameplay, and skill ceiling to what the triple A market tries to sell me. But sandstorm to me looks like a sinking ship about to drown, and I don't want that to happen.
I think the main problem is that the way I see things with both games is that insurgency sandstorm is about to have an identity crisis.
If you can look at both insurgency 2014 and sandstorm, with both having enough hours clocked in to understand the game, you'll notice sandstorm is somewhat dumbed in someways.
The removal of AP/HP rounds, how OP heavy armor is, higher TTK (even with fixed hitreg it still feels like it), and the general sense of tension removed away it feels like the game is a dumbed down casual experience.
I'm a guy who loves playing tactical/milsim stuff. I even got 583 hours clocked in ARMA 3. However, I don't want insurgency sandstorm to change to become a high TTK slow paced tactical game. That just takes away the uniqueness and original formula insurgency has. The fun and moments I have for insurgency 2014 were all based on the tactical, high tensity, fast paced, and low TTK gameplay it had. Even on normal servers that had lower tick than community servers you can feel the both the intensity of incoming enemy gun fire and your gun inflicting damage on your enemies. Insurgency Sandstorm feels like it barely has the hardcore and fast paced gameplay it once had before.
Just removing the hardcore based aspects from insurgency 2014 in sandstorm is just removing the charm Insurgency has always had that no other shooter in the tactical shooter had generally aimed for. There are barely any shooters out there that blend in the game design of tactical shooters generally being slow paced to fast paced casual shooter genre so perfectly.
I don't want the game to change in the similar fashion to Rising Storm 2 and Squad. It'll just be swallowed up in the endless abyss of those games and lack any originality, uniqueness, and overall identity to it. The charm will be just gone for me and other insurgency vets who stood up to make the game retain a consistent player base for 4 long years that strives to be active and also be community content creators for mods in the workshop genuinely appreciating the game for what it is-something unique and something rare in the modern tactical shooter genre.
I get that Insurgency Sandstorm fans that are new to the franchise or people that didn't like the hardcore intensive nature INS2014 had but if you look it another perspective, you'll realize most tactical shooters in the genre don't even match up well to the unique kind of gameplay INS2014 aimed for. Insurgency at its heart has always been hardcore, tense, accessible, and with a high skill ceiling with this kind of gameplay.
Insurgency 2014 just felt almost perfect to me and other friends. The only problem we had was the fact the game was limited by its engine, that's it.
Insurgency Sandstorm is a great improvement, but the game being somewhat dumbed down feels a bit disappointing imo.
Reason why most veteran insurgency players like us want high lethality kills close to being around 1-2 shots is the fact how this kind of gameplay in the previous Insurgency promoted just more than your aiming. In such a tense environment with your health being forced down to being usually 1-2 shots to put you down with most guns, you had to rely a lot on team synergy, proper objective routing through movement, and good map knowledge. Without these important factors, your team would pretty much lose even if you had the best aim out there.
The tense environment Insurgency 2014 built up with the high damage gameplay enforced more thinking and less spraying down targets. Playing carefully and efficiently was essential in order to be perfect in Insurgency 2014. If you stood out to a position too long, you were a dead weight. If you kept going in the same direction getting killed over and over with no slight chance of recovery, you and your team were wasting tickets. If you kept going, you were likely to lose the game.
Insurgency 2014's low TTK gameplay enforced a sense of thinking more than just spraying lead to enemies. You have to realize that everyone including you have a short life span and you wanna make that count and support the team.
The TTK and environment Insurgency Sandstorm enforces just dumps that out of the water. It's no longer the hardcore environment you had to keep your eyes to within each corner and each inch of open cover. You're more permitted to do things that would genuinely obviously get you killed instantly in a game in Insurgency 2014. Especially in the servers with competitive players on it.
Genuinely, I feel like AP/HP rounds should of been kept in the first place really.
Because if the damage model is purposely setup like this, then I see no point of adding armor in the game and making it standardized for all.
Why remove AP/HP rounds to go against the armor's weaknesses and allow the ability to customize armor still when the damage model is just gonna be the same for all armor types regardless of what they are?
Why do the damage models have to be standardized to be almost the same when they were different in Insurgency Source?
It doesn't make sense at all. I get it that NWI removed it for "stopping power" like reasons but trying to substitute the removal of AP/HP rounds with just general standardization regardless of ammo type just doesn't even cut it all.
Snipers in Insurgency were always one shot anywhere except the legs. This damage they dealt actually gave them purpose. You even had two options to go for sniping in Insurgency as well. Either the rewarding power of accuracy with the bolt action or the multi role forgiving nature of battle rifles, allowing themselves to do well in most ranges, but not as far and great as bolt action rifles.
@Benz the reason why most of the guys here that played insurgency that want a low TTK style don't just think to make the game easier but to enforce player thinking about their strategic routes and how to take objectives efficiently and quickly. In Insurgency Source everyone had the ability to kill each other in a short of span of time, therefore you would have the enforce the mindset of taking things slowly and efficiently. But in a game like Insurgency, taking it too slow and camping would essentially make you a deadweight to the team and not earn you any points at all. The reason why we want low TTK is not that we want the game to be easier, but we want sense of tension and tactical efficient thinking reinforced as an idea for the new players of this franchise. You can get away with so much BS in sandstorm compared to regular insurgency where overthinking and taking it too slow would leave you as a deadweight and being out in the open would just instantly lead to your death.
Insurgency combines a blend of fast paced and tactical gameplay unique in the tactical shooter genre that forces efficiency in taking objectives and with your kills. Sandstorm just dumbs down these kinds of elements.
However don't think us vets hate the game, we see the game as a major improvement compared to the source engine limited predecessor.
the more I think about sandstorm and the more I play it I always get frustrated it with no matter what. Shit like TTK in this game is absolutely a joke when compared to day of infamy and insurgency. Even day of infamy didn't have AP/HP rounds and did fine.'
Why slow down the fast paced nature of insurgency/day of infamy when its been well praised for 4 years for insurgency and for 1 year for day of infamy? And yet both of these games have relatively high reviews compared to most games in Steam. Hell, even the beta of day of infamy was alright compared to this. The tension just feels gone in sandstorm. You can get away with so much BS in insurgency sandstorm compared to what you can get away with in Insurgency 2014 and day of infamy. The lack of tension, quick deaths, and the respawn times that insurgency 2014/day of infamy enforced to think more about your life just makes this game feel uninteresting to what it's trying to compete in the market. It's like its identity is crumbling away.
I don't get how people say fast TTK can make the game easy while in Insurgency 2014, a game with a wildly faster TTK than sandstorm, has pro players decimating the shit out of public players with extensive map knowledge and quick reaction times.
Quick reaction times can save your ass sometimes, but knowing specific spots and lanes the enemy use to their objective can objectively make you a monster in a match. What's the point of reducing TTK to make it competitive? Rainbow Six Siege is low TTK and pretty highly competitive. Increasing TTK will basically try to emulate like COD where your chances of survival are increased because you take less damage. What's the point of just increasing TTK to make it competitive?
Certain aspects of sandstorm are lacking on what they tried to improved on their predecessor.
@benz mate i think when it comes to sequels you have to understand the sense of refinement
insurgency vets are fine with a refined insurgency but with issues like TTK they dislike it
Check this out, speed reloads are generally like this. Way faster than the speed reloads presented in-game.
@benz wdym the game didn't even get a 5k player peak?
theres been a time as well when insurgency wasn't free and reached over a 5k player peak.
get your facts straight.
the fuck do you mean insurgency2 vets don't matter? you do realize the vets matter because they're the players that actually made the previous game alive for 4 long years. A game that was seen as underdog with a messy and buggy launch with no chance of surviving in the crowded tactical genre of games on Steam. If veteran players didn't matter so much in your eyes, then I bet the sequel wouldn't even exist and you wouldn't be on this forum. Even I wouldn't be on this forum. The foundation of insurgency's fanbase all the way from day 1 when it was a mod has always supported the series even as a small tiny playerbase for so long that now the game is about to release on mainstream markets (i.e expanding to console) what do you mean vets don't matter? Hell you need fucking vets in games to ensure the quality of games as they are the driving force and the roots of what your game great and what expanded in popularity. They're the ones who spread attention to games.
I'm not saying to fundamentally rely on the opinions of vets because vets can be wrong especially when it comes to supporting the idea of outdated mechanics.
whats the point of saying low TTK can lower a game's skill ceiling when it enforces a player to change their mindset to value their life and move carefully?
whats the point of complaining about how low TTK can let noobs kill you easily when you can obviously outsmart them with baseline map knowledge and proper positioning?
Yeah @Zucchini described benz pretty well. While his points were well very made, when someone disagreed with him he'll flamebait em by taunting them. Look, there's nothing wrong with having a different opinion at all because surely all of you are given the right to express what you believe about the game but Benz was genuinely an ass if he saw someone disagreed with his opinion and would sometimes insult them for lack of skill or lack of understanding.
Benz made some good points but the way he handled criticism and disagreement just made him look like it was bound to happen. But I do admit, Benz has made some good points so I'll press F for him.