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posted in Champion Ladder PC read more

Just to clarify a couple of points:

  1. The stats I posted include those coaches who played on pc initially under 3 minute turn timers and then moved to console under 2 minute turn timers.

Their average game times are, like everybody else’s, remarkably similar. So, it is not a case of console coaches are used to 2 minutes and therefore only take that amount of time as was suggested above.

  1. There is a demand on console to raise the turn time limit to 3 minutes, the last time I saw it raised was in discord in November (and not by me I may add!) so to suggest that everyone is happy with 2 minute turns on console is incorrect.
posted in Champion Ladder PC read more

@camelotraider

Ok, so taking it at face value that somebody is abusing the timer rather than thinking about their turn/kids are fighting/phone call etc (and yes, if it is indeed every turn then it is probably not the irl issues mentioned), then the question that needs answering is “what is the scale of this problem of abuse, balanced against the number of people who want the times to remain at 3 minutes”

For me, I haven’t encountered people behaving like that for a long time, and in cases where I have they have been reported. It has then been up to the admins to review and decide what action, if any, to take.

If this is happening every other game, or 1 in 100 would be useful to know in pointing towards what action to take in relation to it.

posted in Champion Ladder PC read more

Please keep 3 minute turns, for the following reasons:

  1. Here are the stats about how people play in 2 minute and 3 minute champ ladder environments. I used Extra Arms bot to look at the average game times of all players whose coach names I a) know and b) could find out, who had played in champ ladder on both console in a 2 minute environment and pc on a 3 minute environment. Below are the results. The important information being the highlighted yellow column which is the difference in players' game times between console and pc:

0_1547901144645_Screen Shot 2019-01-19 at 12.31.23.png

The average difference is just over 2 and a half minutes for people who have played at least 99 games on both platforms in 3 and 2 minute turn times (2.6 mins to be exact). *

As you can see nobody has a larger than 7 minute game time difference in 3 minute and 2 minute environments.

What you can also see is that a coach whose games take 56 minutes on PC takes 57 minutes on PS4 (ie the lowest average game length in these stats), and a coach whose games take 83 minutes on PC, takes 81 minutes on PS4 (ie the highest average game length).

I think its reasonable to conclude that lowering the turn times will not shorten the game times, and that it is very much dependent upon how you and your opponent play, ie, if someone takes a "long" time to play in 3 minutes, they will still take a "long" time to play in 2 minutes. The stats above support this.

Just having 3 minutes available doesn't mean that people will take 3 minutes every turn, but it is useful for harder turns.

So really, the debate is whether it is worth changing the turn time for what is, on average, a 2 and a half minute saving in time (on the basis of actual stats in the CCL). In my view, absolutely not, the gain is so minimal vs the cost in doing so.

  1. The fundamental principle of CCL was that it was designed as a competition for all races to be able to compete in, and qualify for, a knockout tournament.

Changing to 2 minutes actively harms some of the races in doing this - Kislev and Vamps in particular when you are trying to calculate hypno gazes, leaps etc. There has been no reasons put forward for changing such a fundamental part of the structure.

  1. My view is that changing the turn times down to 2 minutes will lead to less players playing agility teams. I think that agi teams need longer in some turns when they are considering stealing the ball, and removing this time from them will lead either to players not playing, or players resorting to bash teams. I have had players on console telling me they do not play agility teams anymore because of the 2 minute turn timers. I am similar, and will now only play bash on console, because for me, it is a lot easier to play in the constraints of 2 minute turns . On PS4, in the last few seasons, the complaints about all the bash, in particular the chorf teams, has escalated to huge proportions, I believe this is in part (I don't know how much though) due to the turn timers and people not wanting to play agility teams.

  2. Turning to the reasons put forward at the top of this thread.
    a) "It's inline with the other CCL leagues. i.e. XBOX1 and PS4"

This is the exact opposite of the arguments used when console changed to 2 minutes. Then, it was "we do not have to stay with PC and can do what we like for turn times".

There is absolutely no reason to keep the turn times the same between the platforms.

If someone can explain the benefit of having the same times between platforms, I would like to understand this.

b) "The game was designed to induce stress with a finite amount of time. Less time means the critical decision/turns are harder to deal with"

A turn time limit does induce stress. The question is how much is reasonable, and what benefit does reducing it get you? On the basis of the game length stats, it gets you very little.

I agree with the second part, less time does make the critical decision turns harder to deal with. However, what is the outcome of this?

As can be seen from the statistics, the outcome is very little in terms of length of games.

Does this mean that therefore the RNG involved in the game increases as there is insufficient time to find a better play and therefore more dice are involved and luck becomes a more prevalent factor? I would argue yes, a better solution can be found in 3 minutes than 2 minutes if the situation is such that it needs those 3 minutes to think through. And you have to ask yourself, do you want to be trying to qualify in a competition, for money, and have that decided more by luck, or your own skill and ability in finding a way to do something? I know which one I would want.

I have seen a number of players coming into Twitch streams and talking about how much they struggle in open ladder with 2 minutes, to understand the game, the icons, the rules etc. There isnt the luxury of having a huge player base for the game, so the last thing that we need to do, is to alienate people coming into the game by making it a less enjoyable experience because they don't have time to play. It's not as if there is a comprehensive tutorial on how to play, or a great open ladder experience where concedes are rife and you run into a vast number of killer teams.

c) "Not the primary reason but 2 minute turns mitigates AFK issues."

afk players are reported and, where appropriate banned. This system appears, to me, to be working very well judging by the reports and admin responsiveness in the ccl discord, so changing turn timers will have minimal, if any effect here.

  1. To the postings that have appeared in ccl discord about the long game times that have taken place of 140 minutes or so and how "terrible" they are.

a) did anyone ask the coaches involved what they thought about those games? were they tactical games where both of the coaches put each other in difficult spots each turn and those required them to think through their turns carefully? Did those coaches involved enjoy the games?

Were those games where a number of riots took place increasing the number of turns? Were they high scoring games which involved a number of setups and then kick off events that caused other things to happen?

We don't know.

The only thing that can be said about those posts, is that the person posting believes they would not enjoy being in a game that long. Notwithstanding the fact that if they play quickly anyway, they wouldn't be in games that long because both players would need to be taking time to consider their turns/RNG events would have taken place and limiting turn times would have no effect in that situation.

  • I did the average calculation by hand because I don't have the time to ensure those minus numbers (ie where console game times are quicker than pc game times) don't artificially lower the average number.

Notes on the stats:
I carried out the searches using the EAB channel in CCL discord if you want to check the numbers. Searches were carried out 12 January. I used 99 games as a cutoff as EAB normally uses 100 games as a metric when calculating ranks etc, but Onannia had played 99 games so seemed churlish to exclude those results. I didn't pick and choose the results, all the coaches whose names I have been able to find the results for have been included. Below are the coaches who have played less than 99 games for info, the results are the same:

0_1547901915794_Screen Shot 2019-01-19 at 12.43.15.png

posted in BB2 - Bug Reports read more

Fair enough, my mistake, thanks for clarifying. 🙂

posted in BB2 - Bug Reports read more

When using the goblin fanatic (ball and chain), if he makes a GFI and hits a player, the block dice are rolled before the GFI is rolled. The GFI should be rolled first.

I noticed this when my fanatic failed his GFI, after he had knocked the opposition player over.


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