We don't need hard caps on battleships. They can be balanced organically instead of with a hard cap.
- Caps limit fleet customization and creativity, which is one of the really fun parts of the game.
- People should be allowed to play lower micro fleets if they want. Forcing a drukarhi player to use 7 ships instead of 4 with similar overall DPS/HP will just make people not want to play drukhari.
- Fighting against mostly-battleship fleets is just as fun as fighting against fleets with larger numbers of smaller ships. There's little fundamental change in the tactics of playing against, say, BC drukari vs BB drukhari
- Mostly BB fleets give up a lot of mobility and cap control. For example, a BB + escorts IN fleet is very vulnerable to being outcapped, forced to split up, and then picked apart. Or hit by bombs/novas or ships in their rear arcs. The four BB drukhari fleet can't bring any escorts, which is a nice bit of micro reduction for the drukhari player, but leaves them very vulnerable to being outcapped by silent running enemy escorts. I suspect 3 BB + 1 CR or GC + 2 escorts is a stronger fleet, just less fun to play.
- Agreed, we need more nebula/asteroids
- Having different modes will cause huge balance issues. For example, drukhari rely on splitting up the enemy fleet a bit before they engage. If there was a "cruiser clash" mode, drukhari would lose every match to heavy ships that just sat in a nebula, and would need to be buffed. Which would lead to them being overwhelmingly OP in cap points mode. You probably remember this from BFG1, where eldar automatically won data missions against orks and orks automatically won station defense vs eldar.
- Agreed, turrets are too strong, brace should lose the +100% or turrets should overall be nerfed
- Agreed, Necron starpulse needs to do significantly less damage. Necrons need HP, regen rate, and maybe DPS buffs to compensate.
- Agreed, SM are absolute garbage and need huge buffs. Scuttle needs a 10 second spool up or to do way less damage. Hulking a ship should probably apply a permanent penalty, like -10% to everything, that triggers EVERY time a ship gets hulked and stacks. So you can't just recrew a ship 5 times and it's fine.
- Admech also have the option to bring a bunch of cruisers, like Lunars, for maximum novas. BBs are not the only way to play them. They're in a good place overall.
- Drukhari are good but they really suffer from poke damage when revealed due to the lack of shields and armor. They eat excessively heavy fleets alive or players who are careless with their escorts, but a good player can beat them with IN or something similar. Might be worth removing the 4.5k admiral upgrade because 18k stealth is pretty cancerous, but they don't need major nerfs. People need to play better / bring more escorts.
- Asuryani meta is the torpedo macro cruisers, orbiting at 13.5k with the 270 arc stance and the +4.5k range upgrade on. It's maybe the best fleet in the game right now, high damage, very tanky, very hard to counter. Might be worth changing 270 arc to 180 arc to make the kiting less oppressive and distinguish them from corsairs.
- Corsairs just need more damage, especially on pulsars. Right now they are strictly worse than craftworld in every category except access to the voidstalker BB, and voidstalkers are just not as good as macro cruiser asuryani in 90% of circumstances.
@Fosil yeah exactly. You showed me that carriers CAN work as part of a LC cap-points-only fleet right now, and I imagine it'd be even better with Slaanish. But I don't think brace has a tremendous effect on that matchup anyway.
Strikecraft has 5 counters right now:
- kiting, so your ship has more time to shoot at the ordinance
- blobbing, so friendly ships shoot the ordinance
- fighters, to kill / delay while friendly ships shoot them down
- Brace doubles turret accuracy
- running silent / going into a nebula.
Option 5 is a hard counter (unless you've been probed). Options 1-4 stack multiplicatively with each other. Brace's x2 on top of stacked kiting/blobbing/fighters really does make carriers impossible to use against a semi-cohesive enemy fleet.
My suggestions for strikecraft:
- Remove the defense turret bonus from brace entirely. Or make it 25% instead of 100% so it doesn't have a big impact. This is also a problem for torpedos, which will usually evaporate on the way in unless fired from about 2.5k away.
- Buff strike craft speed just a little bit. Maybe 10-20%? The fact that a 200 speed chaos ship (or any eldar) can actually outrun them while all ahead fulling (while killing them all with the 4.5k defense turrets) means that any attempts to buff their damage or assaults will result in them crushing slow ships and still being useless against fast ones.
- Increase the nebulas / asteroids on the map. The values from last beta felt really good, but in this beta most maps are completely empty. This will allow players to avoid strike craft by clever use of the map unless the carrier player makes equally clever use of probes / fighters/ escorts to counter it. This should counterbalance the other two buffs to strike craft to prevent them becoming overpowering.
Fair enough @Skalgrim-Fellaxe. Also are necron players using mass recall? Even with a nerfed starpulse, inertialess drive in, blow focused target up, mass recall may compensate to a degree for their awful stats given their price. They still probably need a buff though.
Multiplayer in BFGA1 died because the progression system meant experienced players could mop the floor with new ones even if they played only equally well. It also wasn't even very interesting, because there was an obvious best choice for most of the upgrades and crew based on the faction/weapons on the ship. I'm finding that picking upgrades in BFGA2 requires a lot more thought.
I think capture points has way more potential than skirmish. It organically encourages spread out, mixed weight fleets instead of death blobs. The devs just need to do something about running silent escorts backcapping. My favorite ideas so far are escorts not being allowed to cap at all, or running silent moving from a permanent stance to a temporary order.
Just played against a full carrier nid as lance chaos. Brace was the difference between me being untouched (which is how the match played out) and probably a lot of assault actions, since I just barely cleared the fighters while losing maybe 1/4 of my defense turrets before the 2nd wave of assault craft arrived. Ended up taking 0 crew loss / damage from them, while carving them into mincemeat with lances.
Making escorts unable to cap doesn't REALLY solve the cancerous playstyle of both sides avoiding fighting - people will just do the same strategy with LC fleets. The problem isn't escorts themselves, it's perma-invisibility. 100% uptime Running Silent encourages both sides to cap each other instead of defending (why hide 2 escorts near your own point on the off chance they send an escort to you instead of sending them to 2 enemy points?).
Bold idea: what if "running silent" were switched from a stance to a TEMPORARY order in the "emergency repairs / scan / call to arms" category? Say, 30 seconds (or whatever the duration of marked is) of complete invisibility. That would give you enough time to sneak between gas clouds as you approach (assuming more gas clouds get added, maps are way too open right now) or fake going for one point only to sneak off to a different one instead. Or you could juke enemies while running away while spotted. But you couldn't do both! Since ships on enemy points get revealed, this would make it very easy for defenders to either intercept incoming cappers or run them down if they used running silent to get to the point itself.