Hi, I'm seeking clarification if the 5x kroot fleet with kroot admiral is allowed or not. It can't be made, but like the over 1200 point fleets, if you have one saved from an old version of the game you can still use it.
I ask this because the top player beat me (the #2 player) with it twice in ranked this competitive season, and @Jellyfoosh told me that it was an exploit and that it was not allowed. But Solaire was not disqualified or anything. I don't care if it's allowed or not per se, but it needs to either be defined as an exploit and enforced or opened to allow anyone to use without using old files. Solaire's a great player most of the time, and my gripe here is mostly with Focus, not him.
Stealth has basically 3 benefits:
- Favorable engagement from a blind side.
- Forcing the opponent to split up (or lose on caps) and then fighting half or less of the enemy fleet with all of the stealth fleet.
- Shooting at the opponent without being shot back.
Tzeen cloud 22.5k Archerons on Chaos can only use #3 because the stealth is temporary and has an obviously visible indicator. The fleet completely relies on scanning and sniping enemy escorts every time they scan the Archerons so the enemy runs out of scans early. It loses to large numbers of enemy escorts or 240+ speed line ships, ESPECIALLY if those line ships can stealth themselves (like LCs). So this fleet isn't oppressive except to enemies that lack stealth, are slow, and are all short range / lack sufficient numbers of escorts.
Tyrannid and ork stealth fleets use stealth mainly for #1, because they don't have the mobility to split up themselves to cap without risking losing escorts / line ships if they get scanned. They also struggle to catch and kill enemy escorts that blunder into them. So these fleets can be countered to an extent by taking 3 points with escorts and then positioning the line ships in the middle with an escort / probe / fighter screen around them.
Drukhari, Corsair, and IN/SM/Necron LC fleets use stealth mainly for #2 and to a lesser extent #1, because they DO have the mobility to split up and still safely cap, while quickly picking off any enemy escorts they meet. This makes them extremely difficult to counter if they start the match by picking up 3 points (which they can usually do because of their mobility). If the non-stealth player tries to cap one of their points with escorts / 1-2 line ships, the stealth player can kill them. If the non-stealth player tries to cap one of their points with their whole fleet, the stealth player can maneuver around to capture 1, maybe even 2 points since the non-stealth line ships are nowhere nearby. Unless the map features 3 points that are so close that line ships roughly in the middle are close enough to protect line ships capturing / recapturing one, it is very difficult for the non-stealth fleet to win if the stealthy one doesn't make mistakes.
The best Chaos fleet is probably 6 slaughters with Slaanesh or Nurgle, a skill of your choice, AP ammo and boosting while silent.
Carnages are also good, you can do 5 with 7 escorts and focus on kiting + map control or 6 with 2 and play it like a longer ranged Slaughter fleet.
5 archerons and 2 escorts with Tzeen cloud / Slaanesh can kite even good players on most faction. But you'll probably lose against any competent Eldar, because you don't do as much DPS as them (especially through holos) and you can't avoid brawling because they are faster than you.
@LKHERO I very much agree. A few comments:
- Drukhari need a slight nerf to either damage or HP.
- CW cruisers should go down to either 4 or 6 torpedoes. It's just too much damage for a cruiser, especially one that can easily maneuver to exactly the right angle and range to hit with the full volley. Two volleys can 100-0 most faction's cruisers.
- Corsair need to lose or have a reduced Fragile. They're already the most vulnerable faction in the game to the effects of crits (gens down = death, engine down = death, deck out = can't 270 arc any more, vulnerable to mutiny). They don't need to also take MORE crits.
- Pulsar damage needs to go up a bit. They underperform compared to both macros and torpedoes, right now there is no reason to ever pick them except on an 18k Voidstalker admiral build.
- Basically every CW player takes the +4.5k range on Runic Targeting and stays in that stance the entire match, orbiting at 13.5k except to come in for a torpedo run. I'd like to see extra range offered only at the cost of the 270 arc, or vice versa. So CW would start with Lock On by default, but could take an upgrade to replace that stance with (9k but 270 arcs) Runic Targeting.
@Aram_theHead Sure, as long as the ships don't rely on completely different strategies. For example, you can run 3 Carnages (18k macro CR), 2 Archerons (18k lance BC), and 5 escorts. The Carnage macros strip shields while the Archeron lances help kill dodging escorts. But you wouldn't want to run Archerons and Slaughters together, because Slaughters are high speed short range ships and Archerons are ultra long range kiters - the Slaughters would just get shredded by the enemy fleet's 9k DPS while the Archerons plink.
You can throw a Kroot ball or two in a Protector Tau cruiser build to give you a tankier front line.
You can use a Voidstalker admiral with the range upgrade to safely focus targets while a bunch of corsair escorts and LCs screen.
You can add Overlords to an Avenger IN fleet and keep them on the outside as you engage to make sure your whole fleet is firing while somewhat spread, then bring them in at full health to ram and torpedo while some Avengers dive in with them to tank and any focused ones sit back a little to recharge shields.
@Aram_theHead For carriers, you basically have two options: 1. pure carriers with enough fighters to potentially get enemy defense turrets to near zero, 2. just a couple bays in your whole fleet, used mostly for fighter scouting and occasionally to kill 1-2 bay enemy fighter scouting. Having half your fleet be carriers can kind of work if you lead with a squad or two of fighters and have the rest be bombers (expecting few to none to survive the trip back), but it's just not very good unless you can also force the enemy to split up by outcapping (by using chaos LC carriers or a fast carrier fleet and a ton of escorts).
I don't think you have to go full torpedo to get good use out of them though. Torpedoes en masse CAN be used as a big spread against a whole enemy fleet (like IN meltas vs orks) but it's generally a waste of ammo and you are better off using them at the minimum arming distance (2.5k or so?), where even with enemy ships around not many will die to defense turrets before they hit.
Most factions (nids excluded) can't significantly change how much boarding they bring, especially relative to enemy troop number variation between factions. But boarding actually works well even at different power levels. If you just have a little, you can do things like board to temp crit the deck of a ship about to mutiny so it can't execute. Or temp crit engines of a ship that already burned emergency repair and is running for it. Or temp crit gens on a ship that's about to recover its shields. With a moderate amount relative to your opponent, you can perm crit something important. And with a lot you can obviously hulk.
This would destroy creativity and in fact reduce fleet diversity. If X BC is too strong, adjust its cost. If you limit it to 2/fleet instead, you simply force every competitive player in that faction to fit two in their fleet.
FYI, the 3x bay drukhari LC is bugged, it's only supposed to have one bay. There's no way eldar could get a 3 bay carrier for that price normally.
@ those crying about chasing escort, if you still have so many ships that you crushed the fights, why you don t just cap 3 VPs and hold them until you win instead of chasing something faster than you across all map?
I'll go further. If you're slower than your opponent, start the match by capping three points that are relatively close together and have a bit of cloud / asteroid cover. Keep your fleet loosely clustered in the middle and shoot / move toward the enemy if they step on one of your 3 points and reveal themselves. At no point do you need to mindlessly run at your opponent.
I've had so many people chase me around the map as like grand cruiser IN vs drukhari and then complain that the game mode is unfair and unfun. You won't catch drukhari with 160 speed ships. Defend 3 points.