Bumping thread to let everyone know that I'm taking a break from the game/streaming, aside from balance testing. I'll still be doing that.
This is largely because of 3 major factors:
First, I do not feel that Eldar is rewarding to play. They are still too safe with 270-degree macros no matter how you slice it. Even with 9K engagement range, they still do a ton of DPS (intended), and their Holos give them unparalleled protection vs. macros and lances. The problem with Eldar (Mainly CWE and Corasirs) is not because of their holos or DPS, it's the fact that they still do not trade damage for safety. Eldar intrinsically must choose between damage or staying alive, they cannot have the best of both worlds or they will continue to dominate in the hand of a good player. Right now, CWE Torpedoes dramatically overperform because of their potential burst damage and the 270 arcs leads to high-reward behavior as you're constantly able to deliver accurate fire (with AP even) while still being able to infinitely kite the enemy.
Please make Eldar a 90-degree prow and 9K based fleet: This is in-line with GW design and allows Eldar to remain expensive, elite and high-damage dealing. However, they must be able to trade their safety for this playstyle or else the balance fundamentally breaks at the design level. They cannot be high-damaging and be safe since their holos already give them nigh-macro and lance immunity when they're moving. The Eldar must continuously make decisions whether or not to DIVE the enemy and do high-damage or run away until the opportunity presents itself and then you can dive again. These are timing sensitive and high-APM based decisions that must be executed well in order for Eldar to be considered difficult to play. If Eldar is not difficult to play, then they are fundamentally broken. They're a faction that's supposed to have a large barrier of entry with a higher skill ceiling than other factions. Right now, any idiot with a stutter can press T and deal massive burst with Torps or move away while still doing damage with 270 arcs.
Call me elitist or whatever, but I expect the global CWE/Corsair winrate to be in the 30%s, and if leaderboards conveyed skill and not grind, there should be a very small percentage of Eldar in the Top 25. That's when you know you got the faction right. Don't believe me? Play with Reload Corsairs/CWE over RTN and it's a completely different game (well, pretend you don't have 8 torps). That is actually how the Eldar are supposed to play.
My suggestions for this is two things:
- Remove 270-degree firing arcs from all Eldar. Replace it with Tracking Sense, but without the whale noises (or with Kappa).
- Decrease the number of Eldar Cruiser torpedoes from 8 to 4. Their burst potential is just way too high.
Second, matchmaking and the leaderboard is not a representation of skill, it's a representation of how much time you have on your hands. 1v1 and 2v2 currently feeds into the same leaderboard and you just need games to reach Legendary, which is the highest rank available. When you search for games, the algorithm seems to prioritize finding a game first above anything else. There might be a 5-second search window to find a "similarly skilled" player, but I don't even know if that's true because I am constantly being paired with players far below my skill level; regardless of they are in Legendary or Bronze. It's been this way since beta and I'm outright bored with the game when it comes to Ranked. Instead, I find custom games vs. other balance testers or players I know can put up a fight. I'm not sure what kind of skill-based algorithm that the game uses, but I don't see any indication of MMR or ELO. I would much rather wait 1 minute to find a game worthy of playing, than a 5-second wait time to find a player who I absolutely murder. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for the player who's paired up against me, and regardless of whether or not I win, I know that I will need tons more of these uninteresting games to catch up to some 2v2 player ahead of me on the leaderboard.
The leaderboard system itself does not promote a competitive environment. We are not low enough on players where you can relax the MM parameters to find any and all players, but what it is doing is killing the game entirely for competitive players like myself. This is especially worrisome when I see that data is being pulled from "Legendary" players; even if they're filter by 1v1. Playtime. Does. Not. Represent. Skill.
I encourage all to read this thread I posted on data:
My suggestions are:
- Separate 1v1 and 2v2 into their separate ladders. Every major RTS title I can think of in the last 20 years had this.
- Widen the search parameters to be much larger than they are now, prioritizing finding players of similar skill over getting a game.
Logic flow should look something like this:
Search players with similar rank in same region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with similar rank in next region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with similar rank in all regions for 5 seconds; if not then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in same region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in next region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in all regions for 5 seconds; if not, then:
Lastly, Dark Eldar Battleships. Yes, DE deserves their own section. Why? Because it is more effective to sit there with 3 Drukhari Battleships with Reload/AP ammo and shoot than it is to actually hit and run (because you're not doing damage). Let that sink in for a second, a long second. Yeah.. I'm going to throw out my Shadowfields proposal from Page 1 again.
Pitching this out again:
- Consider reducing Drukhari BB DPS (e.g. Heavy Scythes) or overall weapon systems.
- Consider lowering Drukhari BB HP and add a minor Holo-field effect to Shadowfields.
This will mean that they can't just sit there and AFK and deal damage, but they have to constantly hit and run to mitigate damage. This would also greatly encourage more Cruiser/Light Cruiser play and movement rather than the oversaturation of BBs we're seeing now. I don't know how the Drukhari in this game is almost the complete opposite of how they are on the table-top and fluff. Stealth is great, sure, but they're supposed to be fast raiders capable of doing great damage and then getting out. Eldar in general hate pitched/attrition battles and when it's more favorable to engage and right-click over movement and positioning, I feel that something is horribly wrong.
No doubt that CWE are over-performing, but with the upcoming 9K engagement ranges, you should have the health advantage with most Prot Tau builds. As Prot, you will have Ord and Missile advantage so you can divide and conquer when Eldar ships scatter.
Also, your 4th on the Tau leaderboards means nothing unfortunately. Anyone can get there if they play enough games (both 1v1 and 2v2).
However, I must say that shorter engagement ranges and Torps are the current problem with Eldar. We must be very careful when talking about Holofields because they're mechanically very different than almost everything else we have in the game. This is otherwise compensated by their below average boarding and getting boarded, crits on gens is much more devastating and their lower HP/armor when it comes to ramming. Corsairs with their Fragile trait is also very frustrating, especially against some crit-based factions such as Prot Tau. Their strongest build right now is probably 7CAs, but it only has 4 Torps per Cruiser which is a very good thing.
Very good video @LKHERO
The part at 2h2m showed me what I think is the biggest weakness of the game and takes the cheesecake We need a Force Organisation chart. Spamming the same type of a LC 10 times doesn't seem like interesting gameing experience, but it works really well.
Tindalos needs to see those builds and decide if that's the thing they want to represent their gaming experience.
The same problem exists in 40K, except there's the rule of 3
I made an Intermediate to Advanced guide on how to play the game a bit better. I didn't really have a set script, so I just ran down some bullet points and talked about each for a little bit. Unfortunately, because there is quite a bit of gameplay, it ran much longer than I expected! 2.5 hours actually.
I mainly just stream 1v1s when I have time and don't have a dedicated YT channel, so I've highlighted this vid on my channel:
Here are the points I talked about in this video:
- Fleet composition; focused vs. balanced fleets (~8 min)
- Upgrade/skills additions (~17 min)
- Hotkeys; improving speed (~24 min)
- Scouting, strategic deployment, focus fire while moving (~32 min)
- Selecting critical systems (~37 min)
- Understanding ship movement (~1h10m)
- Understanding weapons and engagement distance (~1h10m)
- Cooldown management (~1h37m)
- Predicting engagements, reacting to the enemy (~1h50m)
- Understanding specific matchups; meta fleets (~2h2m)
I primarily showcased the IN when talking about designing a fleet, but also dabbled in Eldar when talking about cooldown management. There's also a lot of torping in this vid with both factions and a fair amount of jumping around topics because there's so much to talk about.
What you say is true, but I would not throw leaderboard or even win % out at all. If anything, I would be worried that the Devs are taking these very statistics and basing game balance decisions off of this.
You are probably right. The current leaderboard can't say much.
Too many players who barely know what they are doing.
And the top of the ladder is basically the one who farms the most newbs.
But for the same reason, the serverdata statistics are super unreliable either.
God knows how Nec managed to reach 40+ win% in Beta 2, which makes them think Nec don't need buff.
It's almost unthinkable among top players.
They really need to listen to the community if they want to make decent balance.
And in that regard, I think it's better to make clear what playerlevel you belong to.
Makes it easier for the Devs to filtrate valuable information.
Since you know ........ we are talking inside a Topic which says Eldar needs buff.....
Right now, I think most of the top players are saying that fundamentally, Eldar just needs changing. 270 degree arcs makes the playstyle of the faction too safe. In fact, it's against Eldar fluff entirely! I've written this time and time again and I don't think it's going to do us any good unless Tindalos is polling opinions from top players and using supporting telemetry from top players to verify it.
For example, what good is our feedback if they're looking at generic 1v1+2v2 stats on the newb-laddergrind that is the current leaderboards? There's no chance. They have to use data that is actually applicable for them to make intelligent decisions. Otherwise, it's all a wash.
@lkhero Do CWE torpedoes do more damage than the drukhari ones? Also, if the ability to shoot in a 270 arc from 13.5k range is removed, why should I ever play CWE instead of drukhari? At the moment this seems the only advantage that CWE have over their cousins.
CWE and Drukhari uses the same Eldar torps, so the same damage. You play CW for the heavier armor and Holo-fields; which offers unmatched macro/lance resistance.