Bumping thread to let everyone know that I'm taking a break from the game/streaming, aside from balance testing. I'll still be doing that.
This is largely because of 3 major factors:
First, I do not feel that Eldar is rewarding to play. They are still too safe with 270-degree macros no matter how you slice it. Even with 9K engagement range, they still do a ton of DPS (intended), and their Holos give them unparalleled protection vs. macros and lances. The problem with Eldar (Mainly CWE and Corasirs) is not because of their holos or DPS, it's the fact that they still do not trade damage for safety. Eldar intrinsically must choose between damage or staying alive, they cannot have the best of both worlds or they will continue to dominate in the hand of a good player. Right now, CWE Torpedoes dramatically overperform because of their potential burst damage and the 270 arcs leads to high-reward behavior as you're constantly able to deliver accurate fire (with AP even) while still being able to infinitely kite the enemy.
Please make Eldar a 90-degree prow and 9K based fleet: This is in-line with GW design and allows Eldar to remain expensive, elite and high-damage dealing. However, they must be able to trade their safety for this playstyle or else the balance fundamentally breaks at the design level. They cannot be high-damaging and be safe since their holos already give them nigh-macro and lance immunity when they're moving. The Eldar must continuously make decisions whether or not to DIVE the enemy and do high-damage or run away until the opportunity presents itself and then you can dive again. These are timing sensitive and high-APM based decisions that must be executed well in order for Eldar to be considered difficult to play. If Eldar is not difficult to play, then they are fundamentally broken. They're a faction that's supposed to have a large barrier of entry with a higher skill ceiling than other factions. Right now, any idiot with a stutter can press T and deal massive burst with Torps or move away while still doing damage with 270 arcs.
Call me elitist or whatever, but I expect the global CWE/Corsair winrate to be in the 30%s, and if leaderboards conveyed skill and not grind, there should be a very small percentage of Eldar in the Top 25. That's when you know you got the faction right. Don't believe me? Play with Reload Corsairs/CWE over RTN and it's a completely different game (well, pretend you don't have 8 torps). That is actually how the Eldar are supposed to play.
My suggestions for this is two things:
- Remove 270-degree firing arcs from all Eldar. Replace it with Tracking Sense, but without the whale noises (or with Kappa).
- Decrease the number of Eldar Cruiser torpedoes from 8 to 4. Their burst potential is just way too high.
Second, matchmaking and the leaderboard is not a representation of skill, it's a representation of how much time you have on your hands. 1v1 and 2v2 currently feeds into the same leaderboard and you just need games to reach Legendary, which is the highest rank available. When you search for games, the algorithm seems to prioritize finding a game first above anything else. There might be a 5-second search window to find a "similarly skilled" player, but I don't even know if that's true because I am constantly being paired with players far below my skill level; regardless of they are in Legendary or Bronze. It's been this way since beta and I'm outright bored with the game when it comes to Ranked. Instead, I find custom games vs. other balance testers or players I know can put up a fight. I'm not sure what kind of skill-based algorithm that the game uses, but I don't see any indication of MMR or ELO. I would much rather wait 1 minute to find a game worthy of playing, than a 5-second wait time to find a player who I absolutely murder. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for the player who's paired up against me, and regardless of whether or not I win, I know that I will need tons more of these uninteresting games to catch up to some 2v2 player ahead of me on the leaderboard.
The leaderboard system itself does not promote a competitive environment. We are not low enough on players where you can relax the MM parameters to find any and all players, but what it is doing is killing the game entirely for competitive players like myself. This is especially worrisome when I see that data is being pulled from "Legendary" players; even if they're filter by 1v1. Playtime. Does. Not. Represent. Skill.
I encourage all to read this thread I posted on data:
My suggestions are:
- Separate 1v1 and 2v2 into their separate ladders. Every major RTS title I can think of in the last 20 years had this.
- Widen the search parameters to be much larger than they are now, prioritizing finding players of similar skill over getting a game.
Logic flow should look something like this:
Search players with similar rank in same region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with similar rank in next region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with similar rank in all regions for 5 seconds; if not then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in same region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in next region for 10 seconds; if not, then:
Search players with +/-1 rank in all regions for 5 seconds; if not, then:
Lastly, Dark Eldar Battleships. Yes, DE deserves their own section. Why? Because it is more effective to sit there with 3 Drukhari Battleships with Reload/AP ammo and shoot than it is to actually hit and run (because you're not doing damage). Let that sink in for a second, a long second. Yeah.. I'm going to throw out my Shadowfields proposal from Page 1 again.
Pitching this out again:
- Consider reducing Drukhari BB DPS (e.g. Heavy Scythes) or overall weapon systems.
- Consider lowering Drukhari BB HP and add a minor Holo-field effect to Shadowfields.
This will mean that they can't just sit there and AFK and deal damage, but they have to constantly hit and run to mitigate damage. This would also greatly encourage more Cruiser/Light Cruiser play and movement rather than the oversaturation of BBs we're seeing now. I don't know how the Drukhari in this game is almost the complete opposite of how they are on the table-top and fluff. Stealth is great, sure, but they're supposed to be fast raiders capable of doing great damage and then getting out. Eldar in general hate pitched/attrition battles and when it's more favorable to engage and right-click over movement and positioning, I feel that something is horribly wrong.
No doubt that CWE are over-performing, but with the upcoming 9K engagement ranges, you should have the health advantage with most Prot Tau builds. As Prot, you will have Ord and Missile advantage so you can divide and conquer when Eldar ships scatter.
Also, your 4th on the Tau leaderboards means nothing unfortunately. Anyone can get there if they play enough games (both 1v1 and 2v2).
However, I must say that shorter engagement ranges and Torps are the current problem with Eldar. We must be very careful when talking about Holofields because they're mechanically very different than almost everything else we have in the game. This is otherwise compensated by their below average boarding and getting boarded, crits on gens is much more devastating and their lower HP/armor when it comes to ramming. Corsairs with their Fragile trait is also very frustrating, especially against some crit-based factions such as Prot Tau. Their strongest build right now is probably 7CAs, but it only has 4 Torps per Cruiser which is a very good thing.
Very good video @LKHERO
The part at 2h2m showed me what I think is the biggest weakness of the game and takes the cheesecake We need a Force Organisation chart. Spamming the same type of a LC 10 times doesn't seem like interesting gameing experience, but it works really well.
Tindalos needs to see those builds and decide if that's the thing they want to represent their gaming experience.
The same problem exists in 40K, except there's the rule of 3
I made an Intermediate to Advanced guide on how to play the game a bit better. I didn't really have a set script, so I just ran down some bullet points and talked about each for a little bit. Unfortunately, because there is quite a bit of gameplay, it ran much longer than I expected! 2.5 hours actually.
I mainly just stream 1v1s when I have time and don't have a dedicated YT channel, so I've highlighted this vid on my channel:
Here are the points I talked about in this video:
- Fleet composition; focused vs. balanced fleets (~8 min)
- Upgrade/skills additions (~17 min)
- Hotkeys; improving speed (~24 min)
- Scouting, strategic deployment, focus fire while moving (~32 min)
- Selecting critical systems (~37 min)
- Understanding ship movement (~1h10m)
- Understanding weapons and engagement distance (~1h10m)
- Cooldown management (~1h37m)
- Predicting engagements, reacting to the enemy (~1h50m)
- Understanding specific matchups; meta fleets (~2h2m)
I primarily showcased the IN when talking about designing a fleet, but also dabbled in Eldar when talking about cooldown management. There's also a lot of torping in this vid with both factions and a fair amount of jumping around topics because there's so much to talk about.
What you say is true, but I would not throw leaderboard or even win % out at all. If anything, I would be worried that the Devs are taking these very statistics and basing game balance decisions off of this.
You are probably right. The current leaderboard can't say much.
Too many players who barely know what they are doing.
And the top of the ladder is basically the one who farms the most newbs.
But for the same reason, the serverdata statistics are super unreliable either.
God knows how Nec managed to reach 40+ win% in Beta 2, which makes them think Nec don't need buff.
It's almost unthinkable among top players.
They really need to listen to the community if they want to make decent balance.
And in that regard, I think it's better to make clear what playerlevel you belong to.
Makes it easier for the Devs to filtrate valuable information.
Since you know ........ we are talking inside a Topic which says Eldar needs buff.....
Right now, I think most of the top players are saying that fundamentally, Eldar just needs changing. 270 degree arcs makes the playstyle of the faction too safe. In fact, it's against Eldar fluff entirely! I've written this time and time again and I don't think it's going to do us any good unless Tindalos is polling opinions from top players and using supporting telemetry from top players to verify it.
For example, what good is our feedback if they're looking at generic 1v1+2v2 stats on the newb-laddergrind that is the current leaderboards? There's no chance. They have to use data that is actually applicable for them to make intelligent decisions. Otherwise, it's all a wash.
@lkhero Do CWE torpedoes do more damage than the drukhari ones? Also, if the ability to shoot in a 270 arc from 13.5k range is removed, why should I ever play CWE instead of drukhari? At the moment this seems the only advantage that CWE have over their cousins.
CWE and Drukhari uses the same Eldar torps, so the same damage. You play CW for the heavier armor and Holo-fields; which offers unmatched macro/lance resistance.
First, I don't think Eldar needs any kind of "buffing". I think many top players will tell you that Eldar, especially Craftworld in their current state are over-performing, myself included. CW pretty much only lose to a select number of metafleets and are oppressing for everyone else. Keep in mind that I'm talking about top levels of play here, and not the global average that tells you CW is in the 40% win rate.
- CW: This is because 13.5km range with 270 arcs is too forgiving. I've said this a billion times before, but Eldar, by nature and playstyle, should either be doing damage or running away and surviving so they can make "attack runs" through either torping or firing fixed-fire Pulsars. Right now, you can kite almost indefinitely so you can maintain great damage and sustain virtually no damage.
- CW: Eldar Torpedoes do an insane amount of damage with very little players can do to mitigate it unless they're running heavy fighter CAP or the torps are dumped from miles away (which by skilled players, they are not). Corsairs do not have as much of this concern they only shoot 4 torps vs. CW's 8. 8x90 is 720 damage that ignores all forms of armor and have 50% dodge on top of having 4 HP. The only mitigation against this is heavy fighter CAP; which means that it's fleet comp dependent.
- DE: Drukhari BBs overperform, mainly due to stances adding incredible modifiers such as 40% reload or +4.5km range/Accuracy/Crit through Lock-On. Drukhari are almost virtually immune to the same threats that target CW/Corsairs which is boarding (since BBs have 21 Troop) and that blasted over-performing Disruption Bomb (no Holos for 20s for Corsairs/CW is death, but for Drukhari who cares).
- Corsairs: That +100% Fragile is killing them; it just makes them too inconsistent and when most of the times you win/lose, you're not sure if it's because you got lucky because you didn't get Crit. When player skill is hampered by bad luck forced on by the game, it leads to an infuriating time playing the faction.
With that said, I am hoping that Tindalos changes this in the next patch:
- Drukhari BBs damage decreased: Scythe Artillery should be reduced in damage from 16 to 12 (4 dps per weapon to 3).
- Corsair Fragile trait removed or at least reduced to 50%.
- All Eldar Torpedoes HP decreased from 4 to 3 (or 2).
- Runic Targeting Node and Spirit Stone Targeting Node removed from CW; replaced with Lock-On.
- Eldar (Corsair/CW) Pulsar damage increased from 30 to 35.
I think the removal of RTN/SSTN from CW will make the faction have to commit more to unsafe behavior if they want to deal damage while keeping 270-degree arcs on the Corsairs will give them a Hit and Run niche.
Replay will have to be a good, well-developed and bug-free feature that's of high quality. TWW set the gold standard for what replays should be these days, next is probably DoW2/CoH2.
Aka, we will be waiting for a while if at all. For now, Streaming will have to suffice.
Don't get me wrong, I used to review replays and talk about gameplay all the time on GameReplays.org. I love it, but you must have the proper tools to work with first.
I think it can also spread, in which if it affects one ship if you then immediately select another group of ships, the disabled ability transfers onto them as well.
I just had a game where it affected my Phoenix, I used Shift on my unit of 3 cruisers, but then when I selected them again, Wraithbone Shift was no longer on cooldown and it was grey.
Can one of you fellas put me in touch with a Tindalos Network Engineer? I think I might have a good lead on what's causing this Critical game-breaking defect. I know that Romain wrote to us that he was very interested in how we might be able to reproduce this issue.
To sum up: I think the defect is caused by the server/client desync caused by latency or dropped packets. The server essentially thinks that the Shift/AHF/Torps/whatever activated abilities are still in the 'active' state and because server takes priority over the client, it forces that state down to the client rendering the ability inactive.
I was reviewing the footage on my stream because by the way I play, I seem to get it a lot compared to most people. This would also explain why reports of this happening mainly come from Eldar players compared to others. I have relatively high APM and issue a lot of command through hotkeys, clicks and whatever else. I have had this happen before to one ship, all ships, some ships, and any combination of the above Boost or Torps (sometimes both). This is because I often issue a lot of these commands in quick succession to each other, sometimes immediately within 1 second of each other. The most prominent example is Vaul's into Boost immediately after releasing Torps (T).
I tried to reproduce this multiple times locally using Skirmish and was never able to get it. However, I have seen this issue before in other companies I worked in and my hunch is that it could be due to the server/client logic. To further support this claim, there was a few nights last week that I had quite a bit of packet loss and ripples due to bad weather (confirmed using cmd/ping -t and OBS/Twitch for frames lost). I was seeing a greater # of this reproducing then than any other night. I also played against Brohan who lives in Australia and experienced it more then. However, in games where there's no ping issues and a steady connection, I do not see this issue at all.
My best guess steps to Repro would be:
- Connect to another player with P1 being Eldar.
- Have the Eldar player use clumsy to simulate lag; increasing latency by 100 all the way to 500:
- Use boost immediately after issuing another command and see if the defect happens.
- If not, repeat with Drop, Throttle, Ripples..etc
The server communicates clearly with the game client and the ability is refreshed on cooldown.
The active ability appears as used when it has not.
A possible fix of this could be to have the server issue a pingback to the client and check if server cooldown for ALL abilities = correct cooldown time then set client state = true. But without seeing the actual server logic or talking to Tindalos SDEs I'm unsure if I can help further.
As we can see in the picture OP posted, Eldar corsairs are truly the strongest race currently in terms of metagaming. As we all know the red colour symbolises speed, therefore, red ships go faster. And what do we see? 12 Red markes on the ship. How people are supposed to catch up to these levels of fast?
If you want to see something really funny, you should try playing against Prot Tau with Corsairs and see what happens. You will literally have every component on all your ships broken within the first minute of the engagement.
Totally agree with the analysis (just a quick remark, a sample of 10 top players is a bit low), macro datas like global winrate is a thing but it can lead to misinterpretation if not backep up by detailed analysis.
For example everyone focusing on Nid carriers overperforming but is it related to Nid carriers ships being OP or to boarding being OP and nid carrier able to overabuse it from range?
Because with higher analysis of the top players if SM + Nid + DE are at the top it is more linked to boarding on which they all excels (easy crit + fast speed to come in range + better assautt boats/torps than other factions) than just nid carriers. Orks are a bit behind because they are too slow to use boarding at optimum value
Oh yeah, totally. The Top 10 was the quick quote, but Top 25 would be more reliable and so on and so forth. The more data you look at, the better the aggregated data and the wider the breadth of coverage.
@lkhero It was yesterday morning (for me, its 4am here). Well, I thought it would be kinda helpful.
Yeah no worries man, I didn't mean to sound harsh to the data you provided. Thanks for breaking it down, but at the end of the day, it could also mean that those 27 Niddies and 19 DE played a crap ton more than anyone else!