Only someone who doesn't use or understand these weapons in real life
Whoa there, careful what kind of assumptions you're making. I've shot many thousands of rounds and done hundreds of hours of combat and self-defense training with rifles and handguns. I've done force-on-force training with airsoft and simmunitions. What I've not done is much long range or competition shooting, which may be where our experiences differ.
When I say that I don't think that something would have a significant impact on game play, I do not mean to imply that I don't know how they work or what the impact would be. If things like barrel heating, ammunition variation, and modified triggers were implemented the effect on accuracy most of the time would be, what, 1 MoA? Maybe 2 in total? That's 1/2 inch to 1 inch at most at 50 yards. For combat shooting, that's insignificant.
While implementing some of these features would be cool and make the game more realistic, we're talking about something that will most of the time change point of impact by barely a few pixels. Something that most players will not notice most of the time when compared to the game play is it is now is, in my opinion, not a "glaring error."
Sandstorm uses a "hybrid" ballistic model, which is hitscan at close range, making bullet impact instant, and then uses some kind of ballistic calculating system at longer ranges.
In theory, it's a rather weird idea, but I think it was made to simplify fast paced gun fighting over the internet. In practice, I don't really notice anything wrong with it other than I don't have to hold high at close range - not that hardly any game does that anyway.
Some pretty interesting feedback. I'm not sure I'd really count any of it as a "glaring error" as they're all pretty minor in effect when it comes to actual gameplay.
Really, I feel like there's one point that applies to a lot of what you've posted: engagements in Sandstorm tend to be short in both duration and range. Many of the things you talk about simply won't matter in engagements with a few hundred rounds fired at under 50 yards.
- No heat management.
This would be neat to see, but I don't think it should be a priority. I don't think I've ever put enough rounds through a rifle in a Sandstorm match to warrant more than being glad my character is wearing gloves. Sure it can be an issue for a SAW gunner, but even then, unless someone is dumping entire mags in one go regularly, which I almost never see, it would not be a major problem.
- Overall equipment weight don't have enough of an impact on performance.
This has been tweaked a few times over the course of the beta. I'm not sure if I'd like to see an ARMA3 style stamina bar, but at the very least I think more weight should slow people down a bit more.
- Weapon weight and balance
I totally agree here and would like to see this added. I think significantly changing how weapons behave based on weapon weight and balance would be a much better way to tweak the weapons in game and balance the LMGs without making them have ridiculous levels of recoil.
- Body armor.
I'd love to see more specific hit boxes in the game to more properly model both character damage and body armor. Body armor and wounding are pretty complex subjects, so some level of abstraction is going to need to happen.
- Being forced to make compromises in weapon assembly
This could be interesting to see, but ultimately it is a game. Not only is balance a consideration, but so is the UI and user discovery. As it is people complain that it takes too long to select your equipment, adding more complexities to the system would likely make this worse.
- Night vision illuminators and pointers.
I've never seen a game that really tries to model NODs realistically. Pretty much everyone goes with the same compromises, which is what happened with the previous Insurgency games. I assume Sandstorm will do the same, but would be pleasantly surprised if they tried to make it a little more realistic.
In previous games the generic laser sight worked quite well with NVGs, so you can pretty much play as if you were running an IR laser.
- Not enough fidelity in ammo modeling.
I'm really not sure that there would be much difference in ammo variety within the the ranges we shoot at people in Sandstorm. Certainly any accuracy differences would never have a practical effect, and unless the damage model gets seriously overhauled I don't think it's worth it to look at how different ammo types might effect wounding either. A lot of differences in barrel length are already factored into weapon performance - the Mk.18 is noticeably less lethal than the M-16 for example.
- Suppressors do effect weapon performance in reality,
I'm honestly glad that in this game suppressors don't have a negative effect on ballistics like they do in most games. The realistic gains in accuracy and velocity again aren't enough to really notice within the range of a Sandstorm engagement. Recoil reduction could be nice, and could be implemented with an improvement to the way all attachments effect weapon weight and handling.
- Flash hiders and suppressors.
I'd love to see different muzzle flashes implemented depending on the muzzle device equipped. It would have an additional balancing effect, especially once we get night maps.
Compensators in real life though only make follow-up shots easier. Most direct the blast to the side, and the shooter barely feels it at all. There are lots of options, especially for 5.56mm, that don't direct any blast upward at all so they won't obscure your vision.
I used to scoff at suppressors on SAWs and shotguns in previous Insurgency games. Both are becoming a reality though. Modern military suppressors like the SureFire SOCOM line are pretty durable, and while they may not be able to survive multiple successive mag dumps, that's also not something that often happens in Sandstorm. For the amount of shooting most SAWs do in game, a suppressor is totally believable.
I'd like to see these added too, it'd add some realism and allow some other balancing options for things like drum mags which tend to have a higher failure rate. It wouldn't happen very often though; most AR family rifles see 2,000+ rounds between malfunctions, that's a lot of game play without a single malfunction. I've seen some of the competitive guys complain about it being a random event that could dramatically effect the outcome of a match. I don't play competitive, but I see the point. Maybe it could just be disabled in that mode.
- Vertical grips don't always benefit the handling of a gun.
Grips are a pretty personal thing, and it's hard to come up with any kind of scientific rule about how they effect weapon handling. I put vertical grips on all of my 16" ARs as I find them the most comfortable. AFGs hurt my wrist with extended usage and I hate them. I've got a BCM KAG on my 10.5" AR. Everyone is different.
- More optics options.
I want to be able to flip my magnifiers and I want to be able to switch the 1X/4X switch on the Specter. Sadly it seems this is a game play decision and I don't think it'll change.
you have to factor in trigger quality when determining how different guns will handle.
In real life: sure, trigger break and reset play a large role in shooting, especially at range. But, no gun accessory is going to change the way my mouse clicks. Any accuracy advantage to running an upgraded trigger isn't going to make a difference in the sub 50 yard shooting that makes up most of Sandstorm.
The AK rifles' firemode switch animation works the opposite it should. The lever should be pushed down when switching to single fire and up when switching to full-auto.
Good catch! I had not noticed this one. The AK's fire selector works differently than most western guns and goes safe-auto-semi.
Another bug is that you can't put an extra shell into shotguns.
For example let's assume you have a 7+1 tube capacity shotgun. You loud your 7 rounds, you cock the shotgun, now you have 1 in the chamber and only 6 in the tube, therefor you should be able to load one more.
The M-870 works correctly in the game. It has 7+1 capacity, you breach load a single shell, then load 7 more into the tube. The TOZ also has a correct animation of breach loading followed by tube loading, but loads to 6+1. Wikipedia says the TOZ-194 has a 7 round tube magazine, so this looks like an error, but I don't know enough about this shotgun in real life to comment on possible variants in mag size.
Though I did notice just now that your character doesn't pump after firing the last shell. Why is that? Does he magically know it was the last one and decide to leave the fired shell in the chamber? Why not eject it and keep the breach open until loading?
Not really sure if the M24 can do the same, but I guess it should be able to.
Sorta, but not easily. Unless using the model with a detachable magazine, there's no way to load the magazine without opening the bolt. You'd need to fully load the magazine, then breach load a round, and close the bolt while holding down the top round on the magazine. You usually have to really ram the bolt home while doing this too, as it doesn't line the casing up to slide easily past the extractor.
This is not R6 Siege, everything would have to be completely redesigned from game balance and map design perspective even if just parts of walls were suddenly breakable.
Yah, Siege has probobly spent more development resources making breakable environments balanced than NWI has to spend on the entirety of Sandstorm. Ubisoft keeps making changes and updates to tweak the balance of maps, even ones that have been used for pro e-sports competition for years. And Siege maps are a fraction of the size of Sandstorm maps. It's just not practical to implement in this type of game, unfortunately, unless it was implemented in co-op only or something.
- Some bushes you can't get into or go through
Makes sense, bushes are alarmingly resistant to people walking through them in the real world. Hell, people used to grow large bushes as defensive walls. I've encountered bushes plenty of times I couldn't crawl or move through even without tactical gear and a rifle.
I'd love to see a Scorpion EVO on Security and the Vz-61 Skorpion for Insurgents. UMP, MP5, Vityaz, and P90 are other good options.
With current shotgun damage model I dont think high ammo, full auto shooty is a good idea
I'd still love to see a semi-auto shotgun like the M-1014. If this is in reference to the KSG: that's not an auto shotgun, but a pump. It's a pretty unique design being a bullpup dual-tube shotgun, which lets it be short and have a large capacity.
Yeah flechettes are pretty useless IRL. The idea of a skinny, fin stabilised, fast moving projectile is a great idea as we see from APFSDS for tanks, but for shotguns they are rubbish.
You can get sub-caliber saboted rounds for shotguns and they're pretty cool. (The Army developed an APDS round in 5.56mm too, intended to make the M-249 effective against light armored vehicles, but, tangent). The problem with flechette rounds out of a shotgun is that there isn't just one of them, they're grouped in a canister. This means the flechettes themselves don't really have any more energy than standard buckshot, they're just shaped differently. In Vietnam the thinking was that they would penetrate foliage better than buckshot, and by some accounts they did, but the idea that they are somehow armor penetrating or more lethal than buckshot is totally myth.
- Have a realistic approach : plates of armour do protect the body area that they cover, nothing more but nothing less. That area can withstand many shots of various calibers, including slugs and 7.62x51, to prevent penetration without however suppressing blunt damage so killing a heavily armoured opponent still is possible.
As much as I would like a realistic approach to that armour/ammo problem (it would make balancing quite simpler, tbh), I'm afraid that's not what the devs went with.
This would be my preferred approach too. But I suppose I'm not a game designer, I just know about guns.
With every set of safezones you are moving across the map towards extraction point .. and when first player (group of players) reaches last safe zone (extraction point) he/they need to defend against new waves comming on them till all remaining players get there .. than they either defend till heli flies in or till they clear last wave (not sure what is better).
Isn't that basically Checkpoint, the coop gamemode we already have? ^^
That's a concern, yup.
My suggestion: make "safe zones" optional. Place a number of them spread out on the map, and make capturing them the only way to respawn dead players. All safe zones are usable at any time, and the players have the option of which, if any, to capture on their way to the extraction site.
I like the idea of an extraction helo or truck sitting and waiting at the extraction zone. Players who make it need to defend it until all other players either make it or die. A bit like the final extractions in the Left4Dead series.
Like i said before the rate of fire, reload times, and ammo cap, balance it pretty effectively already.
Yah, when I'm using a shotgun I think every time I get killed it's because I'm pumping and can't get off a follow-up shot fast enough. It makes CQB super tense - make that first shot hit or you're dead.
My only personal gripes with it would be.. why flachettes? aren't they pretty useless irl? why not just add different choke options?
Yes. Flechettes out of a shotgun is not a thing, they saw limited use in Vietnam and as far as I know haven't been used since.
The military open-chokes all their shotguns and always has. The common view (right or wrong) is that choking a shotgun makes one more thing that could fail, and it would complicate logistics and maintenance. The US military primarily uses shotguns for door breaching anyway, where a choke is pretty pointless and could impede the ability to use specialty breaching ammo. But, since Security isn't the US Army and isn't subject to its regulations, different choke options could be a cool addition. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense than flechettes.
I wasn't a big fan of the mode in Ins2, mostly because I don't like game modes with no way to win other than to get bored. The concept is cool, but it would be better if there were some kind of final objective that would end the game. Especially with maps as large as they are now, making the team cross the map to an extraction point could be really tense and fun.
Like @pierogipal said, it shouldn't be an exact match for the equipped clothing pattern. Soldiers don't really paint their guns to match a commercial camo pattern.
There should be a number of specific spray paint camo options for weapons in single-color, two-color, and maybe three-color varieties.
Some guns are also manufactured in different colors, so there could be a non-paint coloring option as well. These are always solid colors like black, grey, tan, or green. The SCAR, M-24, and AK series all come in multiple colors, and the US Army is using Mk.18s with both black and tan rails.
Kag shotgun? I'm guessing you mean a Kel-Tec KSG? It's not in use by any military forces that I am aware of right now, but it's getting a good reputation (a struggle for a Kel-Tec weapon) and would be something unique. I think it would be a good addition to the game.
Unsure what you mean by "mini smg" - like a Mini Uzi? Just any compact SMG? We absolutely need more SMG options on both sides.
@maa_bunny In terms of penetration, yes. But the blunt trauma resulting from a slug hit in the chest (protected by armour) would most likely kill or incapacitate you anyway.
With soft armor, sure, kinda. Certainly incapacitate, but a rapidly fatal wound is pretty unlikely. Even a few broken ribs and a punctured lung probobly won't kill you within the span of a Sandstorm match.
But both the "light" and "heavy" armor options in Sandstorm incorporate hard armor plates on the chest. These would have no problem defeating a shotgun projectile with nothing worse than maybe some bruising for the wearer.
Colors depend on the environment, in Sandstorm I would think that various combos of tan and brown would be most common. Maybe a little green. Weapon spray paint tends to be a pretty personalized thing with no real right way to do it. But, while some basement warriors will go through painstaking effort to recreate Kryptek Highlander, ATACS, or the like on their rifle, that kind of thing is pretty rarely seen downrange.
I'm personally a sucker for the look of a well-worn single color spray job on a rifle. When I paint my rifles, I typically do two colors with one sprayed through a net for some texture.