This streamer summarize my concerns within Sandstorm in an accurate manner.
Major concerns in the first 3mins. Total video is 5:38.
Published on Oct 23, 2018:
Hi. Nice post and straight to the point. I understand perfectly what you are trying to communicate and think most people do if they try=) It is off course plenty of games with a higher TTK with the same depth in tactics, but the tactics certainly change with a lower TTK, and if people deliberately wants to misunderstand you, they will always find a way=)
"Low TTK makes every other factor of a gunfight more important since there's little room for mistake."
Yes, this is so obvious, and it is weird to see this particular point being argued against no matter how it is explained. I guess some people are not interested in acknowledging that there is also tactical aspects bound to a low TTK.
I mean the evidence is all there. All people gotta do is look up some competitive matches in Insurgency 2014 and some other competitive matches in a game of their choice with a higher TTK, and doing that it would be hard to avoid noticing that the tactics and gameplay in such a comparison show that the tactics change with a lower TTK. Comparing Insurgency 2014 with all other games would be impossible, it is a forum focused on the particular game Sandstorm anyway, but solid games exists on both sides of the scale, no doubt.
I see a lot of posts claiming they have "proof" that there is no tactical aspect of low TTK whatsoever, but I am certain that all players who have played Insurgency 2014 with an offensive playstyle successfully, can confirm that a low TTK adds its own flavuor both regarding team tactics and types of approaches to a situation. The videos on youtube from player LTB (lick the butter) are among one of several with good game sense imho (that is some quick gameplay with a distinct flavour, he has also added some gamplay on Sandstorm by now, link below).
If you (not referring to Slazenger but people in general) want to try going all scientific on the subject but at the same time are unable to understand that there exist advantages and disadvantages with different timeframes on TTK, you simply have not discovered these aspects for yourself. Does anyone seriously believe that if they had an interview with any of the top players in Insurgency 2014 and asked about their opinion on TTK that the answer would be that a low TTK means absolutely nothing regarding tactics? Camping is one aspect that is easy to counter by prefire in many situations if you have high enough game sense, and if someone repeatedly kills you from the same camping spot in a firefight, you need to change up your playstyle and/or get more practice. Which in my case is fun, as I like games where there is plenty of room to improve and adapt, for others it may lead to frustration. I know some who would not even touch Insurgency while others can't get enough.
There is several points that argue both for a high TTK and a low TTK that are valid, repeatedly claiming it is not just shows a lack of experience or interest in taking another persons point of view. I believe most guests in the forum actually makes up their own mind and can find valid points on both ends of the scale when looking for it anyway. Still there is more answers than one, we are not solving simple math equations with only one correct answer, treating it as such and calling all other views false is just ignorant behaviour.
As previously stated, I am not saying one timeframe of TTK is superior to all else, but that it obviously and beyond doubt makes an impact in different aspects.
Again New world Interactive have probably spent quite some time analyzing how they can bring something interesting to the table with the new game as well, and it is too early to draw final conclusions about how the gameplay of the end product will turn out. I think they are well aware that a playerbase liked the low TTK in the previous game, and would guess they would try to keep some resemblance to the old one as several of them are gamers who appreciated the feel of the last one themselves - At the same time I find it cool that they mix things up a little with the new title, daring to challenge the established scene to some extent.
I hope they also add a few smaller maps some time in the future, as the Gamebanana & Razer Insurgency Mapping Contest winner: Station, added some innovative firefights. Also the multiple floors of CQB on the nicely architectured Ministry made for some very enjoyable PVP.
I also hope they will experiment with some of the less popular game modes in the new Sandstorm as well, because game modes like occupy could be really enjoyable on a balanced map. Occupy on Tell map with two somewhat equally skilled teams have been really fun and creates extended gameplay as the point repeatedly gets flipped by the waves of attackers.
Check out LTB (havent asked his permission for posting his link, but would assume he would like people to visit his page, same goes with Shroud on some other post I made)
Hi, the reason for not giving all these options in games (for example cs:go or Insurgency2014), is because it makes the game less gear choice dependent. A sniper is very lethal in bigger open areas, and the trade off is that in close quarters they are forced to use a pistol. Game becomes less class-dependent and because of that also less team-oriented and more all-round when introducing 1x sight feature no matter your scope. So when you choose to be a sniper oriented player, you know that you will be most effective on your team when covering the open grounds and trying to avoid cqb if possible. This balances the classes, or everyone would use a long-range scope, because of no drawbacks.
Also remember that you can switch weapon with the enemies you kill, so if you want to change role mid-game, you can time it with a kill. It is of course a question of taste, but personally I wish the game was even more class dependent to increase (and force) different types of play-styles.
First of all, thanks to all modders, without you the gaming industry would be a lot less colourful.
On Insurgency Sandstorm all I would ever need in mods:
ON PVP MODS/ADMINS:
- A lot of modded pvp servers on the last game had implemented a kill registration feed - That is a horrible mechanic that makes the game cheesier and takes away depth. Visual confirmation by in-game inspection is so much cooler and makes the game much more hardcore - Please consider keeping this vanilla mechanic.
- Please don't mod in extra points to the players, again it makes the game cheesy, as frags, rpgs and c4 will be raining everywhere and making it a RNG slaughterhouse.
- The worst pvp aspect in ins2 was the underbarrel with HE rounds, that thing is extremely op if you know how to use it properly and got no place in any pvp gamemode, unless your goal is RNG chaos - > Look it up on youtube if you want to see single players ruin the whole enemy team with enemy team having no chance to counter - Consistently. It is just sad.
SUMMARIZED PVP MODS:
- No kill feed (cheesy)
- No extra weapon points (RNG + cheese > skill)
- Never allow HE rounds by underbarrel (gamebreaking)
ON PVE MODS:
- If you have ever played the russian coop server BEF, you will know what PVE should be for the most difficulty loving gamers and also a place you will never return if you are not one of those. This server was amazing, and the only pve server I would ever need for a tough challenge. The difficulty was perfect, the enemies felt like terminators, you always played on insurgent side and really felt like the security bots had some crazy training. (If you have played games like Hollow Knight and prefer the area path of pain, Spelunky HD and prefer killing the devil or DOOM2016 and feel the itch to complete ultra nightmare and find the game unplayable from you bought it below nightmare you can understand the mindset of this type of gamer and maybe make nice pve servers for them?)
- The modded servers with medics and huge loadouts were also very fun, but I know they will return if modders find the time, because all gamers into pve likes them:)
SUMMARIZED PVE MODS:
- Please bring back BEF coop server from Ins2 or make similar ones
- An option to give modders money voluntarily should be incorporated in cooperation with the developers, modders deserve that. The Fallout 4 creation club is ok if modders have an option to release free mods (Enforced payments in modding is contradicting the spirit of modding imo)
- A tip for the high difficulty loving gamers: My favourite singleplayer mod of all time : Try S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Call of Pripryat with the latest version of Misery Mod, black road gamemode, you gotta rush the vanilla game first to have any clue what to do and need a ph.d. in making badly optimized games to run smoothly=)
Seems you both agree, both of you are stating both facts and personal preferences.
Personally, even if I consider that AP ammo was a meta in Ins2, I really enjoy that game, though I can see that the amount of differences in guns had areas where they were more similar than in Sandstorm - Still I didn't care too much.
In Sandstorm, with a slightly higher ttk, I will probably stick to guns with a high damage output and reasonably low weight - That will be my new go-to personally, but again I don't worry as long as I find a few loadouts in both games that are viable for me in the situations I like to jump into.
I do believe anyway, that players can find a personal loadout that will suit them well for their preferred playstyle in both games, or is it currently your experience that there is certain playstyles that is not viable in either game - or that the variety within preferred playstyle is too limited?
CURRENT TTK sept28 MY OPINION:
Tried the PVP mode today for the first time, and even with stuttering, the TTK was completely fine in my opinion. The maps are also larger than in the previous installment, so if you need another shot to get the job done in this game, raising the TTK, its still a low TTK at its current state compared to for example CSGO.
The reason I mention larger maps as a factor is that it creates a lot more hiding spots to get killed by campers, so checking every possible spot before moving is harder - And a more forgiving TTK should therefore be welcomed to prevent too many lockdowns - Again, the TTK is still very low, and it works both ways, so I can not see any problem with it. I got 7-8 kills in a few game rounds using the GEA3 battle riffle on insurgent side and the good old M4A1 on security side, they both got the job done just fine, being able to clear multiple hostiles without reloading.
I suppose secondary weapons/pistols are less effective this time around, and aiming for headshots will be more important than in the previous game when using pistols - But that should be fine as a pistol always was meant as an emergency solution, or a supplement to save ammo when taking out unaware enemies when approaching from their blindspot (in my humble opinion).
I have approx 14 000 PVP kills in Insurgency 2014, and experience absolutely no problem with Insurgency Sandstorm TTK.
If you have a problem with the TTK, I suggest having a look at your weapon stats if you have not already and choosing a weapon with higher damage, as the opposing team/enemies in this game have little to zero time to suvive when you spot and shot before they do (if you hit your target that is) - This is on top of having stuttering (I only have 8GB RAM, MSI GE70), so the TTK should be even lower when my rig is upgraded at some point, thus removing lag from the equation.
I have not tried out the bolt-action sniper rifles (M24 security side and Mosin-Nagant insurgent side) and suppose they should be one shot kills, even center mass with heavy armor on target, to remain relevant as viable options.
Yes the M24 use the same caliber 7.62x51mm as the MK14 EBR, and no, they do not need to have the same damage output because the MK14-EBR have a much higer rate of fire - And like every other game the weapons should be optimized to create fluid game balance above realism. Immersion is subjective anyway, and I never understood how anyone can describe a computer game as feeling realistic, though I suppose most people mix the word with immersion=)
Hi Spud, I believe that the TTK is good as it is at current state, I have another post in this forum about my ten cents on the topic - if you click my user name and scroll through my posts you will find the correct one in an effective manner.
With that said, I do not think a higher TTK or a lower TTK got anything to do with intelligence or whether one game mechanic is superior to another game mechanic, but simply a matter of preference. I like tomatoes and you prefer apples, discussing the nutrient value of each product is interesting, but saying one tastes better without acknowledging that some people simply have a different taste leads to no greater understanding on the subject for any parts involved.
I believe as stated by Benz elsewhere that a higher TTK will put a greater emphasis on the ability to hit your opponent repeatedly and therefore raise the skill ceiling in that type of skill set, at the same time I see several valid points on the forum about a higher TTK changing the pace and type of gameplay, as the game can be more forgiving when you for example try to traverse a certain area and get hit, but does not die as a result. If you have a look at a high tier pro match on youtube, in Insurgency 2014 and a high tier pro match in CSGO, they play out a bit different in my opinion, but I believe the teams competing in both games show both high skill sets.
And you have a point that a TTK may be set too low, because it effectively eliminates a lot of other guns from being useful. I mostly used AKM and M4A1 when playing Insurgency 2014 in competitive matches because of just that. Still I could sometimes spectate people with high aiming skills using snipers effectively in competitive gameplay, but outside levels like Panj, I rarely saw the use of those type of weapons myself - even if I have seen a teammate dominate the yard on Ministry with it. Those heavier weapons had a more limited use, because they were extremely hard to use effectively in tight areas (CQB), for me that is, and when needing to have a gun that worked in multiple situations, an automatic was my first choice. Also the range of an AKM or M16 where sufficient across half the map even on levels like Heights, so iron sights became the norm because the maps mostly did not need sights for many players.
In this game we have larger maps and maybe the use for higher zoom becomes more relevant on some maps.
Also, since the game probably will receive updates even post-release like Insurgency 2014 did, we could speculate the possibility that the developers add another game mode with even lower TTK.
That would be one of the purposes of the early access forums right, to stimulate a fruitful conversation about different aspects of the game to help the developers to make a game that hits a nerve with a lot of the playerbase=)
DEALING WITH TROLLS / TEAMKILLERS:
I. Is there a way to open a console menu in-game, or command in-game to show a record of all teamkills in the current game, like int was in Insurgency2014?
-> If this system exist, open your console to identify which team-member actually is the teamkiller, as trolls often lie and spread misinformation to create further confusion on the team, trying to make the honest players kill each other. Open a log file to see all friendly kills and paying attention will often result in identifying the troll. If you can't do this, be careful with giving blame and try identifying the troll by observing the team in the next few rounds.
II. Is there a auto-kick function after a troll has killed 3 or x players on the same team?
-> If this is in the game, the troll will only have "fun" for 3 or x kills, so patiently waiting the troll out by either completely ignoring or avoiding the troll will make the troll disappear after those kills. If this is not the case, we need different counter-troll tactics.
III. And lastly, will the troll be able to rejoin directly after being kicked or have this been fixed with a sort of penalty system like current server locked for x amount of time or similar system?
-> If the troll can not rejoin, the problem is solved. If not, we need different counter-troll tactics.
Depending on the answers to these questions, the strategy to deal with intentional teamkillers or trolls change slightly, but there is a lot of similarities trolls share, and approaches to stop them. Sometimes they share traits which exist in all communities even without (intentionally) being a troll(!). This is often because of low social skills, indifference, immaturity, personality disorders, learning disabilites or [99 problems].
I have seen young people and other people being easily offended having a bad time online and we can all help to make it nicer to be a gamer and make the games more fun to play for everyone.
If you are getting trolled in gaming and feel bad about it, chances are higher you are an easy target, so remember: You have great potential and strangers insulting you on the internet does not know you - Never feel bad, because their opinion does not matter at all (they often feel easily bad themselves, and I genuinely feel sorry for many of them and hope they can reach their own potential one day).
Trolls will always exist in games, but they need stimulation to continue trolling so don't give them that. If you can properly exploit their weaknesses they will stop trolling.
Most games are more fun when cooperating to make the game shine, those who does not see it that way is often bored of the game - Therefore they get easily bored in general, and will stop trolling if they can't reach their goal: To ruin your game and having fun by creating a reaction.
Counter troll tactics:
If you can get your team to cooperate in taking turns to teamkill the troll, the troll can't play.
Keep track of your own teamkills of the troll and cooperate with the team to ruin the game for the troll instead, but only to stop them from trolling, don't throw insults and go down to their level.
If the troll is a lot better than your team in shooting, and there is no auto-kick function, change server or wait for the game to get this update as stated by @GSG_9_LIGHTNING (most games get this update at some point, because trolling makes the developers loose customers and is bad marketing, Sandstorm will get this update for sure if its not there yet).
Always report the troll if you are completely certain who they are, as they will get a lot of complaints and maybe a VAC ban down the line.
In the rare occasions where it is more than one troll always change server to avoid the long time to get them out of the game if it annoys you.
And of course, teamkills happens to everyone, also to pro players in every game. (In CS:GO pro matches and Insurgency 2014 pro matches). Don't be angry or annoyed when teamkilled. It is just a game and most people just made a mistake. Forgive them, say no problem and tell them politely if they don't notice teamkilling you.
Hi, devs have mentioned in a weekly q & a video on youtube that all the cosmetic points will be reset upon release. They mentioned a tattoo reward or similar for beta players.
You can choose to think about the game from another perspective if you want. I only play games to relax from real life stress and to have fun. If I lose or win a game it is because one team is better, but this is not stressful for me, it's normal. But I don't care much about coins/xp points.
For me it is just a game with cosmetics that means nothing else than giving some variety for players who play a lot of hours, and as an extra option to support the developers by being able to buy coins (from what I've heard being discussed as a possibility to be present in the final version).
Maybe try not to think too much about the cosmetics? It is just a fun addition, not meant as the reason to play by design. Very few gamers cares how other players look in the game except themselves, and we can only see ourself in the menu anyway. What matters for most people is how you play to help your team.
I try to enjoy the gameplay and be better at the game and have fun. Your skill development is the only real progression in games like this, and you will get better no matter what clothing you have. The points will get reset when the game releases anyway. If you really care about the looks of your character, maybe think carefully before you spend any coins after the release of the game and the reset of points, and try to get only one cool outfit for each side to make sure that you get what you want.
Remember that when it takes a long time to unlock a piece of cosmetics, the chance that you will look unique after many hours invested will be higher because other players can not copy your looks without a huge effort. This can be better in the long run for players like yourself who sometimes cares about the looks on the character. Some people play a huge amount of hours, so it is cool to have a cosmetics feature that is also fun for those players - Maybe even several years after release.
Insurgency2014 was never a level-up game, this was on purpose, because the developers wanted to make a game that was focused on player skill and not rewarding players with many hours in the game with any extra advantages other than their own skills (said in earlier interviews).
I think that this is the vision for Sandstorm as well, they [the devs] have also said, in the weekly Q and A on youtube, that they will try to avoid cosmetics options that give any significant advantage in the game. They have already removed black clothing options that was "too good" when hiding in shadows.
Hardcore games like this takes a long time to be skilled in for most of us, especially in pvp, I enjoy the ride and expect to invest many hours in the game to get skilled - The clothing gets unlocked by itself in time and is just a fun bonus.
This is just my opinion, and I understand if you see it differently.
If you are safe on the coordinates that you respawn the game works as it should. If you get killed on the coordinates that you respawn it would most probably be considered an exploit and be patched by the devs at some point.
When you exit the spawning area on the other hand, there will always be an area where you can get killed after leaving "safe spawning sone". There is no way this can be eliminated if this is the case. You then have to change server as suggested if your enemies are outplaying you and you don't want to learn how to counter and get better at pvp, or you can start preparing for the enemies like you are supposed to. When the enemies are guarding your spawn, they have fought their way there legitimately. They can be countered and you can do the same on their side. Warn your teammates, don't blind rush out of spawn, remember last enemy location, use prefire, prefrag and all the other explosives. I don't understand this problem unless you are killed directly at spawning coordinates, if that is the case you might want to tell on which map this happens and where they shoot at spawn from to help the developers patch up the exploit.
EDIT: It is a game where you are supposed to kill your enemies with the best tactic available, it is only natural to push closer up to spawn if your enemies can't defend themselves properly. If you keep getting killed just outside the spawn area it is probably a sign that your opponents play better than you, one tactic to consider is to communicate with your team and keep 1 or 2 players close to your own spawn and kill the enemies before they push up too close. The element of surprise is a feature that makes the game more challenging. You need to put in a lot of hours to play good in this kind of game. Look up my profile, I have a lot of tips in recent posts that may help you out if you are new=)
EDIT2: I renamed two of my posts with the name TACTICS and TACTICS 2. If you are new to this type of game scroll through my profile after starting on page 1 of my profile by clicking on my usericon in this post. Both posts should be on the first few pages when I write this. Happy gaming.
TL:DR: smokes, prefire, frags, communication, predictions, recon ->explained better in posts. write me a reply if something seems unclear.
Its suppose to be hard so that it doesnt get boring fast. U can get med class through mods later if our dear modders keep up the good work they did in Insurgency 2014. Medics dont belong in vanilla game - it gets way too easy.
Thanks for clarifying. I also would optimally want a game with extreme lethality - That is after all why I got addicted to Ins2 in the first place.
I don't think it is the game engine that is the challenge in itself as I said earlier, at least not the game engines limitations. I looked at search results from google from the sentence "game engine or developers to blame for performance issues", to look at some perspectives, and a few articles stood out to me,
Especially this one from 2009 that looks very relevant in 2018, which would probably give some insight into the process NWI is finding themselves in (would probably be a good read for NWI as well if not familiar with the content already, as it deals with challenges NWI is facing, and mapping some useful ways of thinking about it):
PDF download also available,
THE ONLY ARTICLE I STRONGLY BELIEVE NWI COULD BENEFIT FROM READING IN MY POST HERE IF NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL CONTENT @Jonny-Higgins , @Iyagovos :
When it comes to engine or developer at fault, we know at least Fortnite and PUBG is made with versions of Unreal 4, and performs not too bad, video about optimizing UE4 for Fortnite 55mins:
An article about how devs deal with bugs, not too interesting for NWI I would guess, but cool for gamers like me:
Here is an article that deals with the question game developer or game engine to blame, though I would say this article may be a bit shallow:
And lastly if you wish for HL3 which we know might never happen, this mod is really impressive if you have not played it already, at least I enjoyed it a lot (It is a small game in itself within the HL universe. I actually bought Half-Life 2 episode 1, just to play it ( a requirement) as Adam Foster peeked my interest some time ago, expect about 3 hours worth of playtime @banani2804 :
@tooth-decay said in Lack of honesty from NWI:
"RS2 got a lot of criticism for only having 8 maps. And of course more maps will come after launch, but launch should be where you have the game in a finished state, not “we’ll fix it later”. A lot of a game’s success comes down to how it was when it launched. Just look at No Man’s Sky."
I believe it's difficult to compare Rising Storm developer Tripwire with NWI as Tripwire is a much larger company and therefore is out of the indie developer ballgame where the stakes are a lot higher [being an indie developer]. Just look at the revenue of both companies. Numbers may be inaccurate or outdated, but works as a comparison of relative size (feel free to correct me if numbers looks off):
Revenue Tripwire: $86.2M
Revenue NWI: $4.6M
NWI is most likely aware that their game should be perfect at launch, and they definitely would try to achieve that, but as I mentioned, economic pressure demands fixed target dates, both to keep a budget, honour contracts, and create good marketing -> When a company sets a release date they can use this when marketing the game to draw customers and make a hype, no company would take a delayed release lightly, as it affects revenue. This have been communicated by NWI themselves across different media platforms - Still, I have a lot of faith in NWI because they have proved again and again that they are able to create solid games for us. I am actually quite exited about how much NWI can be able to achieve in the coming years, as Focus Home Interactive looks like a solid publisher, both from a financial point of view and the amount of cool games they have in their stable already. Also Unreal Engine 4 is a powerful tool, and if you look at the Insurgency 2014 maps from within the map creator [Insurgency SDK], it is quite impressive to see what they were able to squeeze out with a more limited engine. When NWI gets more experience with UE4, they can achieve even more.
Try looking at the longer perspective and don't worry too much - I am sure they both have qualified people making sure they will do what it takes to get a nice end result and will give Insurgency Sandstorm a lot of nurture post-release. Future looks bright for NWI from my point of view, and what Insurgency Sandstorm is already, is quite amazing and will only get better in time=)
EDIT: Even Nvidia is strongly aboard with NWI at this game, and are optimizing their software to suit Insurgency Sandstorm. That's cool with me.
Yeah, personally I don't care too much about realism and could just play the game with no gore or blood whatsoever because it for me mostly function as a tellsign that the enemy is dead or hurt.
The bandaging from RS2V is pretty nice - I have used that game for comparison a lot, guess its a bit difficult to implement all those features without feeling like a copycat.
Game is far from a hardcore military sim in my eyes though, so if thats what you expect it might be disappointing. the arma series may be as close as you get, but the long wait in between fights that any sim would need to have is extremely tedious - Frankly real warfare is boring, tedious, takes a lot of planning and the tactics used don't make for fun gameplay - So I always argue for or against a game mechanism based on what would be added or lost in game features as you can find thousands of elements in milsims that makes no sense at all if you look for it. Example 4f strategy (find fix flank finish) is shit in any videoame as your enemies have no chance=). Mines are realistic, civilians are realistic, sniping from hills from 1200 meters is realistic, killing your enemies in their sleep is realistic, planning a small operation for several days is realistic, not killing enemies because that is bad marketing is realistic, if only enemies in a town it is realistic to bomb the whole thing - No realism sucks, realistic graphics and weapons that function realistically is kinda cool, but the cries your enemies makes when they get burned in a molotov was making my stomach bad - Too realistic=) I preferred the comedy of Mikee giving all character voices - He did a sweet job!
IMMERSION VS REALISM 1/2:
Hi, I agree that it is unproblematic to mix the words realism and immersion, if both the sender and the receiver is on the same page.
Immersive means deep mental involvement in something as I understand it, and I would use it in a context like: I got completely immersed watching the TV series "the wire" when that came out, while some friends did not like it that much because it didn't appeal to them to such an extent, therefore they did not get immersed. So subjective in the meaning that it is different from person to person if they experience immersion in a certain field.
Video games can look realistic and have mechanics that act like in real life, so by all means it is fair to call some video games more realistic than others. It is me getting hung up in semantics really. What I mean by the sentence highlighted, is that even with the whole realistic package you can get with a modern day shooter, it is still so far-fetched from reality in so many aspects that when someone say the game feels realistic they mean it in the same way a Rambo movie is realistic. Like you would not get immersed if Sylvester Stallone rode on a unicorn the whole movie, but the movie is still unrealistic even without unicorns - It is still an action movie that does not need to pretend being anything else.
I agree with your reasoning about trying to avoid redoing damage models and use the point system instead. And even if it for me would not be immersion-breaking to have a more unrealistic damage model on some weapons to create balance that way, I can understand that it will for a lot of people, and that it should be avoided whenever possible.
It also seems the game mechanics work quite well at this point, and that it is mostly about optimization and getting rid of bugs. If the game released without stuttering or bugs tomorrow, but with no other aspects changed - I am sure most people would still love it.
I think it is that good regarding game mechanics and keeps a lot of the flavour from Insurgency 2014.
From their developer Q and A on youtube 24th sept it seems they also will continue to work with the balancing for a long time, so that it may get adjusted even post-release if they find any balancing needs in the future.
Yeah, I think AI or the bots algorithms could be improved in all games always, as I have never met good AI in any video game ever. (I have played video games since Wolf3d came out).
Certain games like half-life 1 had A.I that seemed to react in a smart way, but those situations were actually heavily scripted events from what I've read meaning they would perform certain tasks when you touch a point on the ground. The AI from NWI on the other hand have some dynamic behaviour (ruleset they can follow in different situations) so even if they seems dumber than for example in half- life 1 or 2, they are actually better in the games from NWI because you want the dynamic behavior to keep the game fun in repeated playthroughs.
My favourite AI is the librarians from the Metro series, meeting them was the weirdest experience as they felt so unpredictable in the theme of the situation. In shooters I really like the AI from the Misery mod for stalker call of pripryat, though that ai would kill you from 600 meters away with a single headshot, so it would not be fun without a save/load function.
Imrovements to coop from my point of view in Insurgency Sandstorm:
-There could be incorporated more bots. A lot more (though more bots = more strain on your system, so optimization first right)
-Different difficulty settings, and a lot higher difficulty settings as options (a setting higher than the old brutal named suicide or slaughter or along those lines would be cool, and have dedicated servers locked on top difficulty for the players yawning through the brutal setting)
- Rule changes to the mode: If you play a game of coop as the state is now and just run from objective to objective only killing direct threats but trying to avoid most, you will end up on top of the scoreboard with the Ranking "Professional" "secured the most objectives, x objectives secured" or something alone those lines. Even if you are the reason the rest of the players must rush after you and adapt to the same playstyle to traverse the map, no tactics, no safety planning, no consideration of anythig you would brand as professional in reality. They could add team alive bonus to try promoting teamwork, lower the points considerably if you cap an objective alone when x teammates are alive, I don't know, and these changes would go against competitive, as in competitive, initiative and fast reflexes is key skills to get ahead of the opposing team. In light of competitive training it is therefore straight on point already^^ I guess they could have to different categories of coop, 1 category being competitive oriented, like promoting behavior that will help in PVP, and another coop mode that is focused on team strategy and promoting mechanics that ensures people play in a way that helps the whole team.
It is still great fun though, and I guess people rush because it works the best within the current ruleset + makes it faster to level up to get those nice clothing. I don't know but the points I save up gets erased all the time, so I can not save up 600 game currency to get shades to my soldier even if I am lvl 17. But devs are aware of these things I am sure, and with time iron those bugs out.
What is it about the current state of the AI that you find frustrating, could you provide an example? (Like do they kill too fast or too slow, have a moving pattern you mean is not optimal, stay in unnatural places when inactive/camping/guarding etc)
Both parties in this conversation (Cyoze & Benz) have several valid points. And I am not writing this to criticize any of you, just thought it could be interesting to make a list with some statements mixed by both your ideas and my own, and hear your thoughts if you feel like it. None of the statements are meant as counterarguments to what you have previously said, they are just views that I believe are valid, some banal and some maybe don't.
I. Skill ceiling/floor: The more complex behavior the player needs to manage/master, the higher the skill ceiling. The skill floor will be how fast you can master one or several of these behaviors dependent of how complex the game is, and therefore having any relevance on your team.
II. With a lower Time To Kill, there will be less need for repeated hits on your opponent, thereby lowering the timeframe it takes to kill any given opponent, this will lower the skill floor in a 1v1 situation regarding aim, as the less skilled player can have worse aim but get a lucky spray.
III. The more skilled player will not need to follow up his shot(s) with several more successful shots, so the skill ceiling will be lower in the skill to control recoil and aim in the 1v1 situation with lower TTK.
IV. The ability to learn from a moment of bad situational awareness will exist with both a low TTK and a high TTK, but with a low TTK you learn by keeping a higher situational awareness after respawning again, as it is less forgiving. That does not mean it removes the players room to improve, but it delays the room to improve until after respawning. It removes the room to improve at that exact moment, thus making the game less forgiving, changing customer segmentation.
V. With a low TTK the skill ceiling will be higher regarding the need to maintain situational awareness, as the punishment for not doing so is more severe. Therefore the emphasis is moved further in the direction of situational awareness, and away from repeated hits in any encounter. It just means that the focus of this trait is more vital in a game with low TTK without comparing to any games in particular. If you compare it to a game, the point is more pronounced the higher the TTK is in the comparison.
VI. If opposing players of equal skill meets in an engagement 1v1 with low TTK, the timeframe it happens within is reduced and the emphasis is moved away from repeated hits at one opponent and towards faster gameplay as the winning player can change their focus to the next task in a shorter time frame. Players with the same skills in aiming will have the same opportunity to kill each other regardless of the TTK in a 1v1.
VII. With a higher TTK the time you fire your gun on each opponent will be within a longer timeframe, therefore is is harder to remain undetected or attract unwanted attention due to sound or muzzle flash from third-parties, being very obvious on night maps.
VIII. Teamplay plays a greater role with a higher TTK because the possibility to both change the odds and having successful solo attacks decrease when outnumbered with a higher TTK. Teamplay is still vital with a low TTK in equally skilled teams above a certain skill level, but more free roaming appears in casual pugs.
IX. Facing multiple enemies solo (the Rambo style) I believe we all can agree has a lower success-rate with higher TTK when skill level is equal, and higher in the opposite case. Still there is moments when even the most skillful players don't always pay enough attention and can be taken by surprise. An example could be in Insurgency district map 5v5. There is simply not enough players on each team to have full control/lockdown at all times. A low TTK will increase the chance of a successful lurker getting more kills, without it ending up as a trade. Lower timeframe to kill = more time to move away from the scene, getting a better position.
X. Regarding the example provided by Cyoce and commented by Benz, I will provide an example from my own experience from Insurgency 2014 that mostly applies to example two and thereafter speak loosely about some other stuff like skill ceiling I felt like addressing.
5v5 firefight. Ministry, last man standing defending Charlie (garage), situated by the van on insurgent side on point a few years ago. Why I remember this so much later was because it was against and with one of the earlier competing teams in Insurgency, and I had no business playing against them, but was a bit exited having watched all the pro matches. I have no video proof this happened, and you really don't need to believe it anyway for the example to work, as the essential point is that I felt like an underdog in the situation having trained mostly in random pugs.
Enemies had just capped A by killing my last two teammates, and our plan (in a casual pug, not matchmaking as it was not a thing yet if I remember correct) of me capping C alone while my last two teammates stalled or killed enemies on A, went down the drain.
I managed to kill all 5 who rushed my position from different angles, and yes the enemy team was more skilled than me, as it was their team and friends playing on both teams, and way above me in skill as well, but they felt confident, while I had a heart rate with the rpm like a techno nightclub and was ultra focused due to the pressure.
Now in this scenario you could argue that they were unfocused or did not approach the situation in an optimal manner, as a 5v1 situation normally have only one outcome - And you would be correct.
Still I would argue that I could not have won this situation with a high TTK as it all happened in a very short time frame with highly aggressive attackers. Would the skill ceiling be lower because I managed to hold the ground or would it be more accurate to say that the skill floor was lower? The second option is what i believe is the case, as they had the same opportunity to outplay me as with any TTK, but with the focus of the skill revolving less on aim skills and more on situational awareness at all times - Even if I did not face players of considerably lower skill, but the opposite.
Still it was impossible to win if not close to all shots fired were landing home, but with their shared health pool the odds would have been much higher that I had lost due to being fixated with the aim on one opponent while being killed from another one or caught off guard changing guns or reloading, or attracting unwanted attention by sound/muzzle flash.
You could off course also argue that it only takes 5 headshots, and that would be correct, it would just require a higher aiming skill level on my part - but the skill ceiling is not the top of your individual skill - It is the maximum skill you can have across all abilities as a player combined in general, which is rare even amongst the best players in the world. They often have different roles based upon which gameplay they individually exceed in, and train within the certain role for so many hours that they often suit that role the most - Off course there is probably many exceptions, but hitting the skill-ceiling and having nothing to improve was not an issue in Insurgency 2014 even with a lower skill-ceiling than for example CS:GO, because you can always improve team tactics if you are in the position of mastering the other aspects of the game.
I know CSGO and it's predecessors have had more skilled players through the years of existing and have more complexity both because of the recoil patterns, the higher TTK and the amount of players who have played it for a long time all exceeds Insurgency, but having the highest possible skill ceiling should maybe not be the goal in itself, as the complexity of a first person shooter is not exactly rocket science, nor does it need to reach for always higher complexity, as the time invested to master such a game also raises. In CSGO you will need to practice in the timeframe of about 10 hours a day to maintain a pro level according to a video from Shroud (I am not gonna try to find the correct video as proof, as that would take forever, but there is plenty of statements by other pro players that mirror similar training needed).
Being accessible for the most amount of players by being entertaining, without being to generic and loose relevance, is what matters from both an economic viewpoint and popularity. If the niche hits home with exactly you is a matter of taste, but conflicting views are not invalid if it don't.
As an end note said in a previous post: I am satisfied with the TTK as it is even if that is irrelevant for this post in my opinion.
It's interesting to share thoughts about a game in development that many of us share a lot of excitement about. If you could refrain from answering in a rude manner, it would be much appreciated. Dealing with toxic behavior is both tedious and does not promote our shared goal of discussing the aspects of this game.
I am not trying to prove anything here, just sharing my ten cents on the subject.
Thank you, there is probably still a lot to address that I have not thought of, and the statements are definitely up for discussion in regards to refining them to be more accurate and adding more. Benz have helped me by providing useful feedback, and I have also borrowed ideas from both Benz and Cyote when putting it together=) My personal thoughts about TTK is in another post I wrote, you can navigate to that post by clicking my username and then see all my posts. I am quite new to forums in general, so I did not think about the importance to make headlines if people wanted to look at a specific post