(To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.

I listened to the Sept 24th Q&A and Alex acknowledged that movement speed is a hot topic so Mikee talked about it a little. Alex and Mikee confirmed that the community wants different things since if the devs slow things downs a group complains and if they speed things up another group complains.

Mikee said they’ll work on balancing speed and movement pre-launch and post launch until it “feels right”. Mikee also believes that Sandstorm is slower then the original Insurgency in some cases. He believe the light soldiers in Insurgency to be faster then in Sandstorm.

Mikee says Sandstorm is meant to be a medium-fast paced FPS.

Possible Conclusion:
There’s a significant split in the community.
No matter what the devs do, they’ll disappoint and alienate one side and risk possible sales. Impossible to make both happy.

Possible Solution to unite both player styles under one game:
***Test a “HARDCORE” mode for CO-OP

Advantages:

  1. Small time investment with possible enormous dividends, possible much larger player base and more games sold to a wider audience.

  2. Won’t have to try pleasing two opposite playstyles.

  3. No balancing headaches for pvp.

  4. See how things go, see how the community reacts and add it to PvP later if there’s a demand for it. Possible ‘’Hardcore’’ pro-league.

  5. Co-op is already very promising and unique, with a Hardcore mode it would add longevity to a co-op player base that enjoys a more challenging and technical playstyle.

  6. Hardcore doesn’t mean less action or being boring in Sandstorm. A Hardcore mode will actually bring Sandstorm to it’s full potential because it will only intensify the already intense co-op environment and atmosphere. The current fast arcade/sim style makes the effects less noticeable and less enjoyable.

What would HARDCORE be?
We probably all have our varying opinions about ‘’Hardcore’’ but I’ll start off with what I’d like tested:

  • More suppression effects to make it harder to hit targets while supressed
  • Have a weight system affect movement, stamina, sway.
  • Overall lower acceleration and running top speed: Maybe that just means adding weight to everyone…?
  • Overall slower speeds going up and down stairs, make going up a little slower then down.
  • Running up and down stairs and going up hills reduces stamina more then simply running on flat ground.
  • Stamina
  • More sway after maxing out stamina
  • A little longer to focus then currently, add a few seconds.
  • Have, walk, run, sprint, each with different stamina.
  • No slidding or barely
  • More AI, more random AI paths and spawn points.

Heavy Soldier (Full Armor, all points spent on weapons) Movement:

  • Add weight so jumping off at one story heights kills heavies.
  • Slower acceleration to top run speed and a little less top running speed.
  • A lot less stamina for running.
  • Slower up and down stairs, reduces stamina even more.
  • A little faster walk speed while aiming in sights
  • Crouch has decent walk speed currently

Light Soldier (No Armor, minimal loadout) Movement:

  • Add weight so jumping off at one story heights takes 85% of health and add a lot of suppression effect after jump and lowered gun animation for at least 2 seconds.
  • Much slower top run speed, a little faster then the current full heavy soldier speeds.
  • Make the light soldiers run much slower up and down stairs and hills, a little faster then the current full heavy soldier speeds.
  • Less acceleration to full run speed.
  • Less stamina but would be about 50%-70% more stamina then heavy

Medium Soldier:

  • Won’t say much, just put things in-between the Heavy and Light

Recoil:
I’m unsure about recoil for many weapons, seems decent but need more testing…

  • Increase recoil for LMGs when crouched, too easy to use as rifle in current state.

TTK:
TTK seems decent for me but one shot kill with AP snipers no matter what armor.

To finish this insanely long post, all that I’m proposing would obviously need to be tested and refined, I just wanted to put something out there to start.

Many are passionate about this game, tempers always flaring, shows we love it and want it to be the best game we think it can be. Obviously, what ‘’best game’’ means to each of us differs, and solutions to making it the best game differs also. I can respect a different opinion if it’s proper constructive feedback.

I did my best to come up with a solution to the current player base split, I have limited information of what it takes to develop a game and add a ‘’Hardcore’’ mode to Sandstorm. I might be wrong on the time it would take to add weight and make a ‘’Hardcore’’ mode.
It’s possibly more complicated then I think but until a dev says it would require a massive time investment, I will keep thinking it worthwhile, especially in the Beta phase.

Please feel free to add what a ‘’Hardcore’’ mode would be for you and if you’d like to see it added to co-op.

last edited by lightspeed

I agree with a lot of what you said, not all but alot of it. The only difference is I feel this stuff should be in the game rather than "added in as a seperate mode."

Rather than say what I agree with, ill say what I dont agree with.

A little longer to focus then currently, add a few seconds.
No slidding or barely
Increase recoil for LMGs when crouched, too easy to use as rifle in current state.

Thats really all I disagreed with in your post, and I can clarify more on each of these.
-Focus wouldnt make sense to have to be primed because the whole point is that youre ready to fire. Id say like, another tenth of a second at most could be added on.
-Sliding is fine, it shouldnt make you faster however (if you try it with max weight on right now youll notice you almost speed up into it) and it should require a certian speed to be reached to do it, giving lighter players another edge over heavier ones.
-LMG Recoil imo is already wrong being so high, at least vertically. I feel LMGs should have minimal vertical recoil when youre standing still or crouched. The gun is very heavy, the barrel is very heavy, its designed to fire big bullets fast and with a lot of them, having insane recoil is silly. However, I will say that just because the vertical recoil should be turned down does not mean the horizontal recoil cant be messed with. I feel horizontal recoil is harder to control and can make the gun seem weightier and more of a powerhouse while also being in the realm of making a bit of sense. It makes LMGs strong (as they should be) but makes them harder to use, giving more of a skillcap if you want to fire more than one shot at a time. This point follows up into my next one which is unrelated to your post:
-Compensators are bad and they cause more problems. Nearly removing or entirely removing the horizontal recoil is like removing a dimension off the game, it makes guns with low vertical recoil even stronger by just being a laser beam, I dont think any guns in the game besides smgs and a few select rifles should have compensators, theyre unhealthy for the games balance.

To also add to some of what you said, I feel suppression effects should be increased to be 3x stronger than what they are now, I also feel getting shot should instantly put you at maximum suppression while this is the case. This adds more of a lethality to weapons that dont kill in one, two or even three or four shots. It makes the person who shot first still the clear winner of the engagement while not winning outright by having a oneshot kill. It makes 5.56s lower damage numbers less of an issue when youre less likely to be oneshotted in return.

I feel you could change footstep noises in addition to weight, heavier soldiers make loud footsteps while people with no armor or ammo can sprint moderately quiet. Obviously everyone should have a silent option but it makes carrying more stuff more dangerous, a tradeoff. A light soldier could easily run around and flank without being noticed. Not only that, but the talk of accelleration makes me think of a game called Chivalry Medieval Warfare. In that game, the lightest class and the heaviest class have nearly identical top-speeds but their accelleration is completely different. The lightest class gets to top speed in under half a second while the heaviest class takes a good 3 or 4 seconds to reach top speed. This kind of implementation would also make a lighter class easier to move to a different spot than a heavier class that might have to hunker down and be safe.

Again, the biggest thing I disagree with though is making this a seperate mode, it should be the base.

@lightspeed said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

Add weight so jumping off at one story heights kills heavies.
Add weight so jumping off at one story heights takes 85% of health (for light soldiers)

You were doing so well, and then you threw in this garbage idea... Your saying people should DIE from jumping off 15 foot objects? Would YOU die jumping down from a basketball hoop, regardless of how big a backpack you might be wearing?

How about: Players jumping off high objects (1.5 stories all the way up to the kill height) have to go through a "hard landing" animation where they go down onto hands and knees from the impact, and have the wind (stamina) knocked out of them. Then they have to get up, going through a "hurt" animation like this before being allowed to continue.

I also don't like how you seem to be arguing for defined "Light, Medium, Heavy" soldiers. That's not how it works. There is a "weight bar" and a players heaviness is defined by how full that is. I agree with all your other points about movement and such, but there's no need to differentiate into categories what is essentially the same thing, with just heavier or lighter loadouts.

last edited by AMURKA

@amurka said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

@lightspeed said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

Add weight so jumping off at one story heights kills heavies.
Add weight so jumping off at one story heights takes 85% of health (for light soldiers)

You were doing so well, and then you threw in this garbage idea... Your saying people should DIE from jumping off 15 foot objects? Would YOU die jumping down from a basketball hoop, regardless of how big a backpack you might be wearing?

How about: Players jumping off high objects (1.5 stories all the way up to the kill height) have to go through a "hard landing" animation where they go down onto hands and knees from the impact, and have the wind (stamina) knocked out of them. Then they have to get up, going through a "hurt" animation like this before being allowed to continue.

I also don't like how you seem to be arguing for defined "Light, Medium, Heavy" soldiers. That's not how it works. There is a "weight bar" and a players heaviness is defined by how full that is. I agree with all your other points about movement and such, but there's no need to differentiate into categories what is essentially the same thing, with just heavier or lighter loadouts.

Yeah but what would you call one end of the bar or the other end of the bar? One is light and one is heavy, you can have things change incrementally via the bar so the changes are slow but noticeable.

I definitely like (and wonder why it's not already in) the idea that the heavier your loadout, the less stamina you have to work with.

One thing this thread is missing is that the heavier your weapon, the slower your ADS time should be. Even longer if you were sprinting when you went to ADS.

last edited by AMURKA

@Amurka

Well if the game was more specific for example, you jump off a building and you break your legs and can only crawl until a medic gets to you then I'd say, ya let's do that.

But if you jumped off the first floor with over 100 pounds on you, how combat ready would you be? So that's why it's so black and white where I say heavies die, I just don't want it to be possible...

When's the last time you saw 8 soldiers all jump out off a first floor and hit the ground running, it just breaks the game for me when I see that. And what's most likely, you breaking your legs or something and not being able to fight or you being ready to go full sprint as soon as you hit the ground?

Now if you're just carrying one gun, fine I can see a person climbing down landing on their feet decently but for now it's just so arcady, can't stand it.

Yes I like the idea of a hard landing, taking a knee so it slows you down, seen that in other games and that would be soooooooo much better for sure. Really like the hurt animation idea, all of it was awesome, just didn't want to push things too much knowing that the devs won't spend the time developing a great and realistic idea like that.

Yeah I went with light and heavy soldiers because it's a reference point and it's also how the devs refer to loadouts.
It's a scale and I took the extreme opposites just to make it easier without having to write a book on details of a hundred different weight loadout and speed percentiles...

last edited by lightspeed

@amurka said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

I definitely like (and wonder why it's not already in) the idea that the heavier your loadout, the less stamina you have to work with.

One thing this thread is missing is that the heavier your weapon, the slower your ADS time should be. Even longer if you were sprinting when you went to ADS.

Good ideas!

Imo, they DON'T NEED to further reduce top speed, we need decent max top speed for big maps. They can implement baby steps like:

  • Inertia (lose speed when changing direction)
  • Tagging/Stopping power (hit when moving slows you down very briefly)
  • Not breaching through a door at sonic speeds when sprint bashing it down
  • Further weight impacts ON ACCELERATION, NOT MAX TOP SPEED (Players without armour would still reflect Mikee's 'medium-fast paced FPS' style he categorizes the game as)

They should start with a few elements like these, then iterate again.

@ziggylata said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

I agree with a lot of what you said, not all but alot of it. The only difference is I feel this stuff should be in the game rather than "added in as a seperate mode."

Rather than say what I agree with, ill say what I dont agree with.

A little longer to focus then currently, add a few seconds.
No slidding or barely
Increase recoil for LMGs when crouched, too easy to use as rifle in current state.

Thats really all I disagreed with in your post, and I can clarify more on each of these.
-Focus wouldnt make sense to have to be primed because the whole point is that youre ready to fire. Id say like, another tenth of a second at most could be added on.
-Sliding is fine, it shouldnt make you faster however (if you try it with max weight on right now youll notice you almost speed up into it) and it should require a certian speed to be reached to do it, giving lighter players another edge over heavier ones.
-LMG Recoil imo is already wrong being so high, at least vertically. I feel LMGs should have minimal vertical recoil when youre standing still or crouched. The gun is very heavy, the barrel is very heavy, its designed to fire big bullets fast and with a lot of them, having insane recoil is silly. However, I will say that just because the vertical recoil should be turned down does not mean the horizontal recoil cant be messed with. I feel horizontal recoil is harder to control and can make the gun seem weightier and more of a powerhouse while also being in the realm of making a bit of sense. It makes LMGs strong (as they should be) but makes them harder to use, giving more of a skillcap if you want to fire more than one shot at a time. This point follows up into my next one which is unrelated to your post:
-Compensators are bad and they cause more problems. Nearly removing or entirely removing the horizontal recoil is like removing a dimension off the game, it makes guns with low vertical recoil even stronger by just being a laser beam, I dont think any guns in the game besides smgs and a few select rifles should have compensators, theyre unhealthy for the games balance.

To also add to some of what you said, I feel suppression effects should be increased to be 3x stronger than what they are now, I also feel getting shot should instantly put you at maximum suppression while this is the case. This adds more of a lethality to weapons that dont kill in one, two or even three or four shots. It makes the person who shot first still the clear winner of the engagement while not winning outright by having a oneshot kill. It makes 5.56s lower damage numbers less of an issue when youre less likely to be oneshotted in return.

I feel you could change footstep noises in addition to weight, heavier soldiers make loud footsteps while people with no armor or ammo can sprint moderately quiet. Obviously everyone should have a silent option but it makes carrying more stuff more dangerous, a tradeoff. A light soldier could easily run around and flank without being noticed. Not only that, but the talk of accelleration makes me think of a game called Chivalry Medieval Warfare. In that game, the lightest class and the heaviest class have nearly identical top-speeds but their accelleration is completely different. The lightest class gets to top speed in under half a second while the heaviest class takes a good 3 or 4 seconds to reach top speed. This kind of implementation would also make a lighter class easier to move to a different spot than a heavier class that might have to hunker down and be safe.

Again, the biggest thing I disagree with though is making this a seperate mode, it should be the base.

Good feedback!

The reason why I'm pushing a separate hardcore mode is because I've heard the devs say they want this to be a fast paced game many times and I just don't feel like they'll get close to the pace more tactical players like.

However, if the devs implemented proper weight and stamina repercussions then I believe I could live with that. Including the animation and idea that Amurka mentioned after jumping off the first floor. Having the sliding slowed down and non existant for heavies, fine. All that would add proper consequences and slow down areas of the game that are currently very arcady.

Did you know you can slide up stairs in the current game? Ugh, just no, plain no!

But I know we're in beta so I'm hoping things change...

Thanks for the comments and great feedback guys, really appreciate it, hopefully devs are listening.

last edited by lightspeed

@jarple said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

Imo, they DON'T NEED to further reduce top speed, we need decent max top speed for big maps. They can implement baby steps like:

  • Inertia (lose speed when changing direction)
  • Tagging/Stopping power (hit when moving slows you down very briefly)
  • Not breaching through a door at sonic speeds when sprint bashing it down
  • Further weight impacts ON ACCELERATION, NOT MAX TOP SPEED (Players without armour would still reflect Mikee's 'medium-fast paced FPS' style he categorizes the game as)

They should start with a few elements like these, then iterate again.

Good feedback and ideas, I like it. There are many ways to make the game feel better and I'm hoping on the more realistic side. What you mentioned could achieve a similar movement feel and speed that I'm looking for.

I disagree for the need for more top speed to cross the bigger maps. That maps and distance between objectives really are not that big! Test it, it takes about 5-8 seconds to run to most objectives, that's not a lot of time. For me it just means there needs to me more AI distributed better so there's more cover to cover fighting.

Right now the fighting is both sides run and meet in the middle and at the objective, AI bots all get killed, take objective, run full sprint and meet in the middle or objective, kill all the AI, rinse and repeat...

If we actually had to run for cover stop, fight, then run for cover, stop fight to the objective or be weary of hidden bots in random buildings waiting to ambush you, that would be something. If you ignored those bots, at some point they would flank you from behind and you'd be screwed. That's proper fighting and there would be no; I need a faster top speed to run from objective to objective through empty boring space.

You could also add a third speed, a short sprint burst if you had less then a certain amount of weight. That could give those who take less heavy loadouts a proper incentive...

last edited by lightspeed

Here's a funny little video kinda on the topic we're on. Look how winded those fuckers are after just 1.5 minutes.

Another video showing (nearly) full gear obstacle course training

The people in charge of designing the vests soldiers wear looking at the problem of mobility vs utility (and comfort) IRL

I'm starting to think what the game needs is a "gun down" position (move faster) in addition to the (currently default) "gun up/hipfire". Similar to the way ALT slows you down, another key should be able to put you into "Jog" mode. thoughts?

last edited by AMURKA

@jarple said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

  • Inertia (lose speed when changing direction)
  • Tagging/Stopping power (hit when moving slows you down very briefly)
  • Not breaching through a door at sonic speeds when sprint bashing it down
  • Further weight impacts ON ACCELERATION, NOT MAX TOP SPEED (Players without armour would still reflect Mikee's 'medium-fast paced FPS' style he categorizes the game as)

Yes! These are exactly what I think are necessary tweaks to make game more tactical and believable.

I think it's fine that the devs want a medium pace, I wouldn't like Sandstorm turn into a so called running simulator either. I'm pretty sure they can add these features to movement mechanics and still have a game with decent pace.

@lightspeed Just to clarify, I didn't say we need more max speed, I'm saying that it does not need to be further reduced. The max top move-speed should be left as is. So I agree with your disagreement on the matter.

last edited by Jarple

@jarple said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

@lightspeed Just to clarify, I didn't say we need more max speed, I'm saying that it does not need to be further reduced. The max top move-speed should be left as is. So I agree with your disagreement on the matter.

Ok got you, I'll do more testing with light loadouts and see how it feels... For the moment seems like in FFW going up and down stairs.

last edited by lightspeed

@amurka said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

Here's a funny little video kinda on the topic we're on. Look how winded those fuckers are after just 1.5 minutes.

Another video showing (nearly) full gear obstacle course training

The people in charge of designing the vests soldiers wear looking at the problem of mobility vs utility (and comfort) IRL

I'm starting to think what the game needs is a "gun down" position (move faster) in addition to the (currently default) "gun up/hipfire". Similar to the way ALT slows you down, another key should be able to put you into "Jog" mode. thoughts?

LOL @ first video, music funny!

Two other videos were interesting, shows how extremely slow soldiers are in RL with minimum weight and lots of weight. Fully loaded they are moving at walking speeds and get tired very quickly. I'm not criticizing the soldiers, just saying... and no that's not what I want for Sandstorm, don't want to move like a turtle, just don't want it to be pure arcade which it pretty much is right now.

Did you know that Sandstorm has faster movement then Borderlands 2? And Borderlands is a pure arcade FPS with massive maps. Have a look:

Youtube Video

vs

Youtube Video

So I don't buy at all when people say slower will make Sandstorm boring, right now it's a very fast arcade shooter with realistic effects. It doesn't blend well with the shooting mechanics, just make it all arcade or make it more tactical by making movement less pure arcade. For now it's like it doesn't know what it wants to be and is stuck in a confusing and unbalanced place.

I recently tried Ground Branch, they currently have 3 speeds and their sprint speed it faster then Sandstorms run speed by a lot, which is BS for a game that advertises ''Take your time'' ''...thinking-man's first person shooter...''. Anyways it's in beta also and has a long way to go...

Point is; 3 speeds could work, have a slower jogging speed with not much stamina penalty and have a huge penalty for a fast sprint which would be similar to the current run speed.

@amurka said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

How about: Players jumping off high objects (1.5 stories all the way up to the kill height) have to go through a "hard landing" animation where they go down onto hands and knees from the impact, and have the wind (stamina) knocked out of them. Then they have to get up, going through a "hurt" animation like this before being allowed to continue.

I wanted to bring more attention to your idea, when I read I was, I've seen that in more then one game but the most recent was playing Shadow Warrior2 with a friend of mine. Even a pure arcade game like that has an animation after you land, have a look at the vid 5:46

Youtube Video

Even a roll after a jumping from high would be better then now. I would prefer a longer animation, some suppression effects to give it more consequences.

But for now to keep it simple, suppression effects and damage would help gameplay a lot.

I'm unsure the devs understand what ''tactical play'' means, you can't make a game that is very fast, able to jump out of buildings left and right, run and gun and call that tactical play. And just a reminder for those who harp on me for wanting to make this mil/sim, this is what's in the store description:

''Insurgency: Sandstorm is a team-based, tactical FPS based on lethal close quarters combat and objective-oriented multiplayer gameplay. Experience the intensity of modern combat where skill is rewarded, and teamwork wins the fight.''

''Prepare for a hardcore depiction of combat...''

''...the environment must be tactically navigated at every step toward victory.''

''War at its realest
Continuing Insurgency’s acclaim as the most atmospheric shooter, Sandstorm is built on Unreal 4 to bring its gritty close-quarters combat into a whole new era of realism.''

What they do currently have unfortunately is this:
''...small scale high speed competitive matches.''

Which is not realism what so ever, so ya, very confused game right now which is why there's a split community.

last edited by lightspeed

@lightspeed said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

War at its realest

People all over these forums seem to be forgoing this in favor of some ill-thought-out balancing requests. Realism should always be the basis of what happens in Sandstorm, after that it can get tweaked if it isn't balanced.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

@lightspeed said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

War at its realest

People all over these forums seem to be forgoing this in favor of some ill-thought-out balancing requests. Realism should always be the basis of what happens in Sandstorm, after that it can get tweaked if it isn't balanced.

Unfortunately will probably have to make a "project reality'' mod of some sorts, since everyone just wants faster and faster and faster ADHD gameplay, including Mikee. Come on Mikee, stop it, make it more realistic already!

last edited by lightspeed

@lightspeed said in (To DEVS) Specific movement speed feedback and proposal to fix a split community.:

I feel you could change footstep noises in addition to weight, heavier soldiers make loud footsteps while people with no armor or ammo can sprint moderately quiet. Obviously everyone should have a silent option but it makes carrying more stuff more dangerous, a tradeoff. A light soldier could easily run around and flank without being noticed. Not only that, but the talk of accelleration makes me think of a game called Chivalry Medieval Warfare. In that game, the lightest class and the heaviest class have nearly identical top-speeds but their accelleration is completely different. The lightest class gets to top speed in under half a second while the heaviest class takes a good 3 or 4 seconds to reach top speed. This kind of implementation would also make a lighter class easier to move to a different spot than a heavier class that might have to hunker down and be safe.

I really like ziggylata's ideas here.

A huge part of NWI's realistic atmosphere is the awesome sound however they could do more like what you say as far as running and walking sounds outside and indoors.

In R6S the player movement sounds play a huge part in locating and hunting down ennemi. I'm not saying Sandstorm is R6S or should be, just saying they could add more of the walking and running sounds and help make it more tactical.

last edited by lightspeed

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